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Old June 18, 2019, 01:56 PM   #51
jfruser
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Originally Posted by COSteve View Post
Any firearm employed against someone at 100m (108+ yards) isn't considered as a self defense use because the legal system will assume that you are far enough away from the threat to escape and evade rather than use deadly force to end the threat. Therefore, any use of a pistol with the capability to wound/kill a human at that range is going to be viewed legally as attempted murder.
This is not accurate as a blanket statement, as there are states with laws that would consider defensive firearm use at such a range perfectly legal. Know your local laws and the folk charged with their enforcement.

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Originally Posted by COSteve View Post
More importantly, there probably isn't 1 pistol shooter in 100,000 who can accurately engage a threat at 100m with a standard SD type pistol...
Might want to observe a sanctioned bullseye competition some time. Tiny groups one-handed from the unsupported standing position. Sure, not huge numbers of bullseye competitors, but given a rest of some sort and a knowledge of the bullet's trajectory, this is not rocket science. BTDT.

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...so considering a specific type / caliber of pistol for use at that range for SD is not only illegal but folly.
Considering using a SD pistol at extended range is illegal? Where are you posting from?
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Old June 18, 2019, 03:38 PM   #52
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Here’s a trip down memory lane for some of you. A rampage shooter attacking a courthouse was stopped by an officer who fired a single .40 JHP (one handed as the other was holding the reins of the officer’s horse) from over 100yds (as reported here... I’ve heard it was actually 80yds). Officer not indicted or arrested.

Source: https://www.policeone.com/officer-sh...ustin-rampage/

Apparently, people can not only hit targets with a handgun at that distance, they can do it when the chips are down. I’d guess that officer had probably practiced a bit at distance though and didn’t just start winging rounds downrange and hoping for the best.
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Old June 18, 2019, 03:57 PM   #53
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Yep. And Staff Sergeant Andy Brown made a 70 yard head shot with an M9 on a criminal who was shooting at him with an AK rifle.
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Old June 18, 2019, 06:40 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2damnold4this
Yep. And Staff Sergeant Andy Brown made a 70 yard head shot with an M9 on a criminal who was shooting at him with an AK rifle.
Along with Bartholomew Roberts' example, I think the threat of an active shooter could easily be over 50 meters considering parking lots, open-area events, etc. While my primary focus would be on egressing such an area or incident as fast as possible, if pinned down your only chance may be that 30-40 meter shot; maybe even out to 100 meters. What we do know is that it's not anecdotal as we do have several examples.

If anything, it's not a wasted effort to extend your CCW shooting distances and evaluate your skill and capabilities with your CCW. Better to have practiced it and not need it than need it and not have the confidence or practice to take it.

While I'm just not skill enough out to 100 meters, I'm doing drills out to 30 meters now and will work to improve my skill out to 50 meters enough to feel confident in making a high probability hit.

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Old June 18, 2019, 06:45 PM   #55
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If nothing else, shooting at extended distances helps you understand your max range with your gear for a given size target.
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Old June 18, 2019, 07:38 PM   #56
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I know a defensive pistol instructor who includes some 100 yard shooting in all of his classes with advanced students. They shoot at a good sized steel plate, I think it is 18" wide and 24" high, so it is comparable to a hit somewhere on the upper body.

Most people are very intimidated to shoot a pistol from 100 yards for the first time, and they don't expect to hit anything. But actually everybody hits the plate within their first magazine, and this is the point of the drill. Once they know it is hittable, they do even better their second time up.

Usually revolvers also hit the plate within the first six shots, and even 5 shot snub revolvers often hit it, though that is not guaranteed.

As a person who has done lots of target shooting at 50 yards, and some at 100 yards, I could say lots more about this subject. One thing I will mention is that a .22 target pistol is a very viable tool at 100 yards. Many .22 pistols are extremely accurate, and have either excellent sights or an optic. It is not too difficult for an experienced shooter to hit a paper plate at 100 yards with a good .22. And while a .22 may not have much stopping power, a few of them to the center of mass will still ruin anyone's day.
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Old June 19, 2019, 01:44 AM   #57
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Quote:
Yep. And Staff Sergeant Andy Brown made a 70 yard head shot with an M9 on a criminal who was shooting at him with an AK rifle.
AFTER pedaling his bicycle a quarter mile to get to the scene (he was on bike patrol). The article I read said he fired 4 times, two missed, one hit the bad guy in the shoulder and one hit him right between the eyes, with a (stock) M9 service pistol and service issue ammo. The bad guy had a MAK 90 with a 75rnd drum.

Look it up. Fairchild AFB June 20, 1994

Its not common, its not easy, but don't for a minute think its impossible.
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Old June 19, 2019, 10:48 AM   #58
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100M shoot outs with handguns are few and far between....
Just what are you expecting ? The biggest question is how good a shot are you .
Elmer Keith once downed a wounded mule deer at 400 yards with a 44 magnum S&W , it took a few shots to walk the bullets into the deer but the last shot anchored the deer before it could get away ....so if I could even see a target at 100M , I would say the 41 magnum might be the smallest effective handgun round at 100 meters .

The range of a 22 LR is 1 Mile ....possibly the 22 LR is the smallest !

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Old June 19, 2019, 11:41 AM   #59
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Just what are you expecting ?
That people read my previous three pages of responses and if they still have questions then they ask specific questions so I understand exactly what they are unclear about.
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Old June 19, 2019, 12:15 PM   #60
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I took my geezer eyes, my variable focus glasses, and my new XD9 to the range today, first time in 4 years or so. Most of my shooting was in the 5-10 meter range, but I did 20 rounds at 25 meters. Judging by my performance at that distance, bad guys at 100 meters could stand there and safely spend all their time dancing the hokey-pokey

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Old June 19, 2019, 12:54 PM   #61
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I tried ten rounds at a 12" plate at 25 yards with my 342 snubby. I hit the first three then only hit three more times with the next seven shots.

Shooting an eight inch plate at 25 yards with an LC9s is much easier for me and I usually don't miss at all unless I go too fast with a timer. A G26 makes it even easier.

At 80 yards, I've been working on getting hits on the eight inch plate in less than two seconds from low ready with an AR pistol sporting a red dot. I'm not there yet with good consistency but hitting the plate with no time pressure isn't difficult.

For the OP's question, my answer would be that the snubby would not be effective at 100 meters in my hands. I might get hits with the Glock or the LC9s (I'll need to start practicing at that range to know) and with the AR pistol getting hits wouldn't be a problem.
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Old June 21, 2019, 05:05 AM   #62
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At 100 yards, I want my bolt action. 270 Remington 700 and Nikon scope.
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Old June 24, 2019, 02:42 AM   #63
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Quote:
Elmer Keith once downed a wounded mule deer at 400 yards with a 44 magnum S&W , it took a few shots to walk the bullets into the deer but the last shot anchored the deer before it could get away
Actually - it was 600 yards & he fired four shots w/two hits and two misses.

What's not mentioned though is the huge amount of time Keith spent shooting at 400/500/600 yards and even further - during his "just messing around shooting" sessions. He spent many hours just shooting at an old outhouse just for the heck of it, at extreme ranges, just to see if the loads he was working up would go through the wood sides.
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Old June 24, 2019, 09:28 AM   #64
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I can make those shots with my S&W 640 and my S&W Model 13 3".
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Old June 24, 2019, 09:36 AM   #65
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Quote:
100M shoot outs with handguns are few and far between....
Just what are you expecting ?
You just never know. There was a Waffle house shooting several years a go where witnesses were 1/2 way across the parking lot (about 75 yards) and did not have the skill to shoot at the guy, even as he murdered 4-5 people. Then there was the guy in Brady, TX who shot the guy who had the cop pinned down. It happens.
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Old June 25, 2019, 09:09 PM   #66
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Hunters pistol silhouette is shot at 100 yards. The rams are roughly 12 by 16 inches. They are shot
2 handed. The gun of choice is a TC COntender but I have seen several revolvers and automatics that are competitive. Energy is based on caliber, bullet weight, velocity and barrel length.
The trend of calibers for that discipline was .38/357 , 32-20, 30 carbine and .22 hornet so take your pick.
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Old June 26, 2019, 09:15 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by jfruser View Post
This is not accurate as a blanket statement, as there are states with laws that would consider defensive firearm use at such a range perfectly legal. Know your local laws and the folk charged with their enforcement.
I teach CCW classes in Colorado and I'm not only familiar with the laws in Colorado, but those concerning defensive use of force generally in the US. Name a single state that has statutes recognizing defensive use at 100 yds.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfruser View Post
Might want to observe a sanctioned bullseye competition some time. Tiny groups one-handed from the unsupported standing position. Sure, not huge numbers of bullseye competitors, but given a rest of some sort and a knowledge of the bullet's trajectory, this is not rocket science. BTDT.
Not only do I observe, I participate. I shoot my custom 6" 10mm as steel plates at 200yds two handed. However, the vast majority of shooters can't hit a steel plate at 75 yds as they don't practice. The OP is asking about the smallest pistol effective at 100m. For the average shooter the answer is none.
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Considering using a SD pistol at extended range is illegal? Where are you posting from?
Colorado, however, show me evidence of a single state who's laws that recognize defensive use of a handgun at 100 yds. In addition, federal laws also don't recognize long range shooting a defending oneself from 'an imminent and immediate threat.'
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Old June 26, 2019, 12:57 PM   #68
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I teach CCW classes in Colorado and I'm not only familiar with the laws in Colorado, but those concerning defensive use of force generally in the US. Name a single state that has statutes recognizing defensive use at 100 yds.
Having worked as a peace officer in California and Arizona, to the best of my knowledge such an animal does not exist at least in those two states (statutes recognizing defensive use at 100 yards). Case law, yes. I can't offhand think of a case where someone pulled off a claim of self-defense from one hundred yards when they were the only one claiming to be threatened. But keep in mind however those kinds of shots are quite legit if the reason the shot is being made is to protect people closer to the threat; as in an active shooter scenario or such. By the way, I'm not a lawyer and I'm not providing legal advise. I just like to slap my digits against my keyboard.
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Old June 26, 2019, 05:15 PM   #69
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COSteve:

As Leaf wrote, not likely to see any justifiable homicide / use of force statute call out a defined max range.

But in my state of residence, the law allows for the use of deadly force to protect not just people, but also material goods and to prevent someone form committing a felony during the hours of darkness. There is no explicit range limit.

And there have been instances where a handgun was used at long range (50+ yards) and the grand jury refused to indict (all homicides brought before GJ in this state).

So, as far as I know no black letter law prevents long-ranged self defense and when it has come up before the GJ, the GJ refused to indict.

OTOH, there are some localities in this state that are not so open-minded and one must be very careful, as the local LEOs and residents are anti-gun and anti-self-defense...and will do their best within state law to give the law-abiding CCWer a hard time.
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Old June 26, 2019, 05:51 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by COSteve
I teach CCW classes in Colorado and I'm not only familiar with the laws in Colorado, but those concerning defensive use of force generally in the US. Name a single state that has statutes recognizing defensive use at 100 yds.
Why would a statute on defensive use of a pistol need to recognize a particular distance? Name a statute in any U.S. state that creates a presumption that a shooting isn’t self-defense past X distance, where X is any number.
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Old July 13, 2019, 01:14 PM   #71
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Lucky Gunner recently posted a test of some handgun cartridges at 100 yards:

https://youtu.be/n-x6mudSSn8
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Old July 15, 2019, 08:16 PM   #72
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"any firearm employed against someone at 100m (108+ yards) isn't considered as a self defense use because the legal system will assume that you are far enough away from the threat to escape and evade rather than use deadly force to end the threat. Therefore, any use of a pistol with the capability to wound/kill a human at that range is going to be viewed legally as attempted murder." <<<<<----- That is filled with so much wrong & nope, I don't know where to start. Our driveway is 1.25 miles long and our structure is just shy of 200 yards from the closest fence gate. I know what my deputies told me and there is not a distance issue here in Florida determining whether the threat of great bodily harm or death has ended a hundred yard gunfight is too close for me I would prefer the threat end on the other side of our gate if it has to happen. Additionally we have the "stand you ground law" retreat is not required.
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Old July 16, 2019, 11:55 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by 2damnold4this View Post
Lucky Gunner recently posted a test of some handgun cartridges at 100 yards:

https://youtu.be/n-x6mudSSn8
I saw that, I was surprised to see how poorly .357 Sig did and it pretty much killed any and all interest I had in the cartridge. .45 ACP, while it did well in the gel at 100, I have to believe the drop of the bullet will be so extreme as to be unusable.

147 gr 9mm and 200+ grain 10mm will be the best choices for long range pistol shooting it appears.
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Old July 17, 2019, 11:12 PM   #74
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147 gr 9mm and 200+ grain 10mm will be the best choices for long range pistol shooting it appears.
I prefer the .45 Colt, or .44 Magnum, .44AMP and .45 Win Mag. .30-30 also does well, by handgun standards. .357AMP is also VERY impressive. These, however are not small handguns.

With 9mm service pistols, I find you need to raise the front sight so that a point on the slide about an inch and a half to two inches back from the front sight is level with the top of the rear sight, and you will be about "on" for drop at about 200yds.

I know of no law that in the written text states any distance, near or far where deadly force is invalid. Nor should one ever be written. Now, it is UNLIKELY a jury of non-experienced shooters will recognize the validity of self defense at longer ranges, but that does not change reality, only legality in a SPECIFIC situation.
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Old July 18, 2019, 12:39 AM   #75
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I prefer the .45 Colt, or .44 Magnum, .44AMP and .45 Win Mag. .30-30 also does well, by handgun standards. .357AMP is also VERY impressive. These, however are not small handguns.

With 9mm service pistols, I find you need to raise the front sight so that a point on the slide about an inch and a half to two inches back from the front sight is level with the top of the rear sight, and you will be about "on" for drop at about 200yds.

I know of no law that in the written text states any distance, near or far where deadly force is invalid. Nor should one ever be written. Now, it is UNLIKELY a jury of non-experienced shooters will recognize the validity of self defense at longer ranges, but that does not change reality, only legality in a SPECIFIC situation.
I was responding in regards to the video and its focus on defense shootings or combat and with semi auto pistols in common calibers. Of those, 147 gr 9mm and 200+ gr 10mm appear to me to be best for those situations.

I don't know who is carrying .44 AMP for self defense.
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