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Old December 17, 2018, 09:40 AM   #1
rebs
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which primer for varget ?

using varget powder in 223/5.56 reloads which primer is best a magnum or standard ?
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Old December 17, 2018, 10:55 AM   #2
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Whatever your reloading data says.
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Old December 17, 2018, 11:22 AM   #3
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Yep. Stick powders like Varget don't have the super heavy deterrent coating of a spherical powder, so they don't require a magnum primer to ignite. But if your data was developed with a magnum primer, then you can see some performance difference if you don't use one.

For AR's and other semi-autos, there are military sensitivity primers to reduce the chance of getting a slamfire (though they aren't common in the Armalite mechanism). The CCI #41 is the magnum version of a military sensitivity primer. The Federal GM205MAR is a standard primer with military sensitivity.
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Old December 17, 2018, 04:07 PM   #4
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I’ve used SRM primers for 223 loads ... typically drop about 1/2 gr.

25.5 standard and 25.0 with magnum with 55gr FMJ. is my favorite with Savage PC10 bolt.

Been playing with different charges for an AR with both Varget and CFE223 ... it hasn’t been cooperating.
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Old December 17, 2018, 05:29 PM   #5
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The reading I have seen says the ball powders are now adjusted and do not require magnum primers like the old ones.
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Old December 17, 2018, 07:21 PM   #6
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depends on the load, for this one Fed Gold Match worked well as did CCI 450's

https://imgur.com/a/gotJQiV

This was using a Peterson small rifle primer .260 Rem case. In my .223's CCI 400's or 450's work best. You have to do tests like the one above to see what is best for your rifle
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Old December 18, 2018, 05:56 AM   #7
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Some reloaders will try magnum primers to see if it lowrrs SD/ES when they have a good load but are tweaking. If you run any type of compressed loads be wary and back your charge back before adding or switch to magnum primers.
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Old December 18, 2018, 08:29 AM   #8
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In my (limited) experience magnums are no more likely to produce faster FPS than non magnums and I have done several of these tests. Look at the test above and the Fed blue boxes and the Rem 7 1/2s are faster than the CCI 450's. How that correlates to pressure I have no idea. Maybe Uncle Nick can
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Old December 18, 2018, 09:54 AM   #9
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I use regular primers
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Old December 18, 2018, 11:04 AM   #10
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I would just use regular primers for a .223/5.56 load using Varget. The regular primer won't have any problem igniting the powder charge.
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Old December 18, 2018, 11:34 AM   #11
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"...magnums are no more likely to..." The only thing that might happen when using a magnum primer for a powder that doesn't require 'em is a slight increase in pressure.
"... The CCI #41 is the magnum version..." CCI's so called "milspec" primers are nothing more than magnum primers. They are not military at all. Brilliant marketing though.
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Old December 18, 2018, 11:51 AM   #12
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when doing any load testing always check for pressure signs when modifying the loads, even at minimum charge. When doing a load test I look at each and every case after firing
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Old December 18, 2018, 11:55 AM   #13
Don Fischer
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I use mostly standard primer's for pretty much everything. Once in a while, generally with ball powder, I'll try mag primer's just for grins. Your load with Varget is going to shoot best with whatever primer it shoot's best with! :-)
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Old December 18, 2018, 12:31 PM   #14
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good advice Don, main reason I always try the 450 CCI's is because I have a buttload of them from back in the primer drought of 08 when I needed some SRP's and ran across 5 K of them at a good price. So now anytime I do a SRP primer test I throw them in hoping I can find a use for them in anything other than AR15 fodder
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Old December 18, 2018, 03:29 PM   #15
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Anything but Winchester..

US made primers I prefer Remington 7.5. CCI is ok as well.

Wolf and Tula made great primers, but nobody sells them any more.
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Old December 18, 2018, 04:22 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RC20
The reading I have seen says the ball powders are now adjusted and do not require magnum primers like the old ones.
The newer formulations like the Ramshot line say that is the case for them, but if you call Hodgdon and ask about H335, BL-(C2), and H380, they will tell you the formulation they order is identical to what it was in the 1960's when those powders were developed. I think it's a matter of not affecting existing load data and pet loads.

The way I address the question is to run ten with a mild primer, like Federal standard primers, and ten with magnum primers to see which primer produces the lowest velocity SD. If the load density is less than about 100%, I tilt half the cartridges from each load up and half down before gently seating them horizontally. That produces the widest SD I'm going to see. I take low SD as an indicator of consistent ignition.
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Old December 18, 2018, 07:30 PM   #17
reynolds357
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Quote:
In my (limited) experience magnums are no more likely to produce faster FPS than non magnums and I have done several of these tests. Look at the test above and the Fed blue boxes and the Rem 7 1/2s are faster than the CCI 450's. How that correlates to pressure I have no idea.
All depends on powder and load density. I have seen velocity changes switching brands of primers.
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Old December 18, 2018, 09:08 PM   #18
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Quote:
Anything but Winchester..
I have to agree, I toss em in with every primer test but have yet to find it the best at anything.
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Old December 19, 2018, 01:10 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hounddawg
Look at the test above and the Fed blue boxes and the Rem 7 1/2s are faster than the CCI 450's. How that correlates to pressure I have no idea. Maybe Uncle Nick can
Your ES numbers are all about 3 time the SD or slightly higher. This is close to ideal for a sample size of 10, so you don't appear to have any outliers in any of your velocity numbers.

I used Excel to run Student's T-test on the velocities on the assumption the extreme spread was equal either side of the mean. I would need the actual velocity data to make this more accurate. But under that assumption there is 52% confidence the differences in average velocities 2,3, and 4 is just random, or, stated the other way around, only 48% confidence the difference would continue to hold up if you fired a larger sample or wouldn't change order if you fired a second set of samples of 10.

The difference between 1 and 2, figured with the same assumptions, is about 90% confidence there is a real and non-random difference in those two average velocities. It doesn't meet the more commonly used 95% standard of confidence for believability, but it's looking good for the CCI 400 providing less vigorous ignition.

In tests I've seen done in the past, the differences between small rifle primers in the .223 have made the Federal out to be milder than the CCI, but as Allan Jones mentioned, primer formulations change more often than people realize and it is never announced. In this instance, you can expect the CCI 400 will be generating less pressurizing gas volume than the others and that will make it a good candidate for the 22 Hornet and other small volume cases that are sensitive to having the primer unseat the bullet before the powder can light up and take over primary responsibility for pressure. This leads to high-velocity ES and poor accuracy from erratic barrel times.

In multiple tests I've looked at or tried myself, small rifle primer choice seems to make a lot more difference to velocity than large rifle primer choice does. Probably just the small case volume issue. If the large primers are used in a small enough case, you probably will see more velocity difference from them.


Mr. O'Heir has been corrected on his statement about the #41 primer before, but chooses to ignore those of us who have called CCI and gotten the skinny direct from the horse's mouth, and continues to post that same erroneous statement. First, CCI does not claim their #41 is a mil-spec primer. CCI does make mil-spec primers, but they have a military part number and go through much more rigorous lot testing than their #41 or other commercial market primers do. They used to list the mil-spec primers on their website among their other primers but have taken them off the page, probably because they got tired of non-military customers asking to buy them. The #41 and #34 primers sold commercially are labeled as primers for military rifles. They are, according to CCI made with the same cups and priming mix and priming mix quantity as their #450 and #250 small and large magnum rifle primers. However, the anvils in the #41 and #34 are different. These special anvil legs have a wider spread angle than the anvils in the #450 and #250 do. This reduces their sensitivity, putting it in line with the military sensitivity H-test specification, below. This sensitivity reduction is intended to mitigate the odds of a slamfire or an OOB firing event in guns with floating firing pins. I've never had one, but board member Slamfire has experienced and documented these events in past posts. That was good enough for me to switch to these primers for the Garand, M1A, and AR.

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Old December 19, 2018, 01:39 PM   #20
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The newer formulations like the Ramshot line say that is the case for them, but if you call Hodgdon and ask about H335, BL-(C2), and H380, they will tell you the formulation they order is identical to what it was in the 1960's when those powders were developed. I think it's a matter of not affecting existing load data and pet loads.
I will see if I can find it. None of my manuals list magnum primers for the Ball powders which would seem to back that up.

I can see the characteristics being held but the reluctant to go fooom without a magnum primer eliminated.

Still ogling the LAB chrono before I get back into taking velocities. My Chrony just up and quit from one session to the next and I am still in mourning (I was quite proud I managed to crease the metal on the top and not kill it and then 3 years latter it quit, grrrr)

LAB is pricey but not having to deal with the setup out front and holding up the firing line priceless - will have to see if the range will buy them as they lend that stuff out and as long as you don't break it no fee.
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Old December 19, 2018, 02:07 PM   #21
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I am probably the only person is history that had a bad experience with a a Labradar RC but I would recommend making sure you get the American version and not the European. I had the European and nothing but problems, at least 4 of my cohorts have the American version and not a problem one.

@UncleNick, thanks for the breakdown on the numbers
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Old December 19, 2018, 03:54 PM   #22
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A few years back I ran some H335 using identical loads and brass, the brass was LC 11. The primers used were all CCI and included two magnum types and two standard types. The CCI 400 and BR4 are standard and the CCI 450 and #41 are magnum. The rifle was an old Remington action I built up as a 223, the barrel length is 26". The date on the targets was actually June 1st and not January 6th as we don't have 73 degree F days around here in January.



The below spreadsheet reflects the velocity as measured about 15' from the muzzle using my old Oehler 35P chronograph. I was not really working on groups but trying not to shoot my sky screens.



The average velocities do not point to a magnum primer always yielding faster. The CCI #41 which is a magnum primer did yield the highest velocity but the CCI did trail the CCI 400 by a slight margin. The CCI BR4 primers did yield the lowest deviation.

The target was 100 yards.



Again, while the CCI #41 did yield the tightest group I was not focused as much on my groups.

My suggestion would be try several primers with your powder, bullet and brass and see what works best for you and your rifle. When I did this I expected to see a velocity difference much greater and expected the magnum primers hands down to lead but that wasn't how it played out.

Ron
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