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Old April 23, 2017, 03:17 PM   #1
toasterburn
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Question about Riot Shotguns...

I already have a modern tactical shotgun with a synthetic stock, but I've been thinking about trying to find an old Riot gun (shorter barrel with wood furniture) like you see in old action movies. This would be just a backup home defense gun, slash look-cool-in-my-gun-rack gun.

My question is: what models of Riot Shotgun should I be looking for? (let's say under $500 used)
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Old April 23, 2017, 03:31 PM   #2
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Ithaca-37 ... Hands Down
SEE: https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...0b79289829.jpg

(as item of interest, note the picture source)
https://www.pinterest.com/explore/ithaca-37/
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Old April 23, 2017, 05:44 PM   #3
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Win 97 is another worth looking into.
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Old April 24, 2017, 12:52 AM   #4
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I'll throw in the old High Standard riot guns because they are hands down, the smoothest pump guns ever put out. On top of that, they are so cool that Steve McQueen used one in The Getaway and they're not usually as pricey as some of the other, more well-known guns.

You wouldn't go wrong with a Remington 31 either...
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Old April 24, 2017, 01:36 AM   #5
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Authentic original Winchester 97 and model 12 riot guns and trench guns are collector's items and go for a lot more than $500.

Fake (or faux?) riot gun 97s and model 12s can be found for less, sometimes a lot less.

Not sure where to look but there were a LOT of Ithaca 37s in police cruisers for a long time, I'm sure some of them must be on the market these days...
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Old April 24, 2017, 05:42 AM   #6
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I looked for a Ithaca 37 for quite a while, tried the new manufactured one!

It was faulty, second one the same. Gave up on them. But the closest price I got, was $500.00, to rich for this Old Guy.

The great thing about the 37, reloading, or topping up, hold it in your right hand, loading gate uppermost, drop a cartridge in, push it forward, you do not need to see the action gate to complete the reload.

I used a borrowed 37 in an Action match in Ontario Canada one time, much smoother than my 14" Remington 870. Remington factory 14" barrel, legal in Canada. Had to leave the barrel behind when I moved to Florida. 18.5 OK.
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Old April 24, 2017, 06:36 AM   #7
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My defensive shotgun is a Remington 870 Police... 20", with Magpul furniture, and redone in NP3 Plus.



Wanted a backup shotgun (2 is 1... right), but got an Ithaca 87 (they were renamed for a few years) to rebuild my father's hunting shotgun. It was a Ducks Unlimited Guide Gun, which had a cracked wrist on a rare laminated stock (been looking for a replacement since like 2005). When I swapped in the parts, had an Ithaca, without furniture, in decent shape.



Added new wood, had Rose Action Sports shorten, rebead, and thread the barrel for Remington choked (what I use for most shotguns). Then, sent it for NP3 Plus.

In regards to riot guns, I also have a Century PW87 and IAC 97. The Century isn't usually considered a riot gun, but the IAC is a 20". I had an original Winchester 1897, but they usually are worn over years of use... so a new manufactured shotgun works good for someone that wants function over historic value.

But I'll put up a very different option... I'd consider it a riot gun, but more of a fun gun.

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Old April 24, 2017, 10:28 AM   #8
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I've got a Norinco made 97. It's a fun gun and will slam fire.
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Old April 24, 2017, 10:59 AM   #9
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Original 97s (and correct copies) and model 12s will do that. There is NO DISCONNECTOR. My younger brother missed losing a foot by a couple inches one time, when he chambered a shell in my old Model 12 (borrowed without asking) with his finger on the trigger.

Winchester added a disconnector to late production model 12s, (trap guns, starting in the 60s, I think) but I'd have to look up the actual date this began.
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Old April 24, 2017, 11:18 AM   #10
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Winchester added a disconnector to late production model 12s, (trap guns, starting in the 60s, I think) but I'd have to look up the actual date this began.
My model 12 made in 53 will slamfire.
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Old April 25, 2017, 08:15 PM   #11
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Screwball:

I just bought a Kel-Tec KSG.
I'm impressed with it and not simply as a fun gun.

I notice you have the same Magpul vertical front grip I bought.
I've since been hearing that people break these off the plastic rail.
It looks secure but it IS a plastic rail.

The reason I bring this up is, I saw a shotgun instructor recommending a modified Weaver grip, only for shotguns and rifle.
He recommends putting the butt in the shoulder normally, then just before firing pushing the trigger hand forward hard and pulling back on the forearm hard to put a Weaver tension on the gun.
He says this reduces felt recoil noticeably.

I considered that If I did this with the Kel-Tec the Magpul handle might be overstressed and might break off under recoil.
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Old April 25, 2017, 08:23 PM   #12
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For an old school "riot gun" any American made pump gun made before the 1960's will fill the bill.

Back then shotguns were milled steel tanks that last forever, and can be found fairly cheap in the back racks of gun and pawn shops.
They sit there because they're not "cool" tactical or semi-auto guns and look like Fudd guns.

This would include the Winchester Model 97 and 12, the High Standard Flite King, the Remington Model 31,the Ithaca 37, and the ugly sister Savage-Stevens 520 and 620.
As said, most any American made pre-60's pump gun made before everyone went to cast aluminum receivers and stamped sheet steel internals.
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Old April 25, 2017, 08:59 PM   #13
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Ithaca still makes a small number of shotguns each year. The M37 is THE epitome of the classic riot gun IMNSHO.
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Old April 25, 2017, 09:08 PM   #14
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The "new" Inland makers of replica M1 Carbines are also selling an Ithaca Model 37 copy.

I haven't had time to investigate, so I don't know if this is the same crappy Chinese made Model 37 copy made sold back in the early 2000's.
Those were some ROUGH shotguns, but the price was certainly cheap.

Many people don't know it, but the Model 37 was the last shotgun invented by John Browning.
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Old April 25, 2017, 09:13 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dfariswheel View Post
I notice you have the same Magpul vertical front grip I bought.

I've since been hearing that people break these off the plastic rail.

It looks secure but it IS a plastic rail.



The reason I bring this up is, I saw a shotgun instructor recommending a modified Weaver grip, only for shotguns and rifle.

He recommends putting the butt in the shoulder normally, then just before firing pushing the trigger hand forward hard and pulling back on the forearm hard to put a Weaver tension on the gun.

He says this reduces felt recoil noticeably.



I considered that If I did this with the Kel-Tec the Magpul handle might be overstressed and might break off under recoil.

With the few instances that I saw people blowing their fingers off, it was a cheap airsoft/China produced vertical grip which snapped... not the rail. With the new iteration of the KSG, they did reinforce the forend rail. If you want piece of mind, there is an aluminum rail that goes along the rail so it puts the force across the entire rail instead at a short section. Drawback is it drops the grip down maybe a half inch.

Personally, I'm not a fan of odd techniques. Even with 3" Magnums... it is only a 12 Gauge. Not that much recoil to deal with. But I don't see why you'd want to manipulate a long gun like that. Pushing/pulling... you are likely going to throw a shot a lot easier than just shooting the shotgun normally. But I do have to question... why would he recommend that for rifles? At least for precision rifles, the less influence you put on the gun, the better your results will be.

Well, I don't know if you are going to break the gun, but just be careful with it. The most injuries I see occurring with the KSG are related to user error. Try to dump the magazine, lose grip or break a vertical grip, and you lose a few fingers because you let it go in front of the muzzle. If it worries you, go on eBay and pick up a SMT choke adapter. Gives you a little extra length to protect your hand from sweeping the muzzle... as well as Remington chokes.
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Old April 25, 2017, 11:01 PM   #16
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Quote:
He recommends putting the butt in the shoulder normally, then just before firing pushing the trigger hand forward hard and pulling back on the forearm hard to put a Weaver tension on the gun.
And, he gets paid for telling people this????

If you get the desired result, I guess there's really no wrong way, but this technique seems really odd to me.

For one thing, for me, putting the butt in the shoulder "normally" involves pulling rearward with my trigger hand. Pushing forward seems wrong, and what do you push against, anyway?? The back of the trigger guard? A lot of pump guns don't have a good hump on the top of the grip at the rear of the receiver, so the only thing keeping your hand from sliding forward is the trigger guard underneath and the strength of your grip on the wrist of the stock above, when you push forward with the trigger hand.

I don't see how that could HELP anyone's aim, and in my experience, giving the butt ANY "running room" (meaning not tight to the shoulder) INCREASES the felt recoil.

I think I'd like to see him use that technique on a Winchester Model 12. If you put and hold rearward pressure on a Model 12's forearm before firing, then after firing, it will not unlock, until you release the rearward pull and "bump" the forearm forward slightly. This is very easy to see when dry firing. If you put just a little forward "push" on the forearm, or just try to hold it in place, recoil will move the gun enough to allow it to unlock when you pull the forearm back after firing.

Model 12s, (and 97s) require a certain technique other designs don't.
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Old April 25, 2017, 11:13 PM   #17
mehavey
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Give me a [expletive voluntarily deleted] break, people.
This is not rocket science.

Watch a skeet or trap shooter go 100 rounds.
Normal shooting stance.
Normal shooting hold.
Normal shooting...
...period

Do that.






(so easy... a 120-lb cavegirl can do it)

Last edited by mehavey; April 25, 2017 at 11:24 PM.
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Old April 26, 2017, 10:44 AM   #18
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I find trap loads to shoot a little differently than full power buck and slug.
With my shotguns, I like to put forward pressure on the pump while drawing the recoil pad tight to the shoulder.
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Old April 26, 2017, 11:21 AM   #19
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It should not be to difficult to fulfill your requirement. I have two already in this category. One was purchased this past Monday for $235.00.

It is a Remington Model 870 of 1951 vintage. It was a police trade-in from the Tallassee, AL Police Department. It is in pretty good shape with wood furniture and a cylinder bore on an 18 & 1/2" barrel. The slide is smooth as silk.

The second one was from the Alabama Highway Patrol and is a Mossberg Model ATP. In the acronym, the A stands for 12 gauge, the T for Tactical and the P for Police. It has a 20" barrel with a capacity of 7 + 1 in 2 & 3/4" shells and 6 + 1 for 3" shells. It also has wood furniture and came with a sling. This shotgun stays behind my nightstand and is a my go to for home defense. I purchased it six years ago for $145.33.
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Old April 26, 2017, 12:53 PM   #20
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Make a flame thrower
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Old April 26, 2017, 03:22 PM   #21
Dfariswheel
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I sent Kel-Tec a question about the lower rail possibly breaking with a vertical grip mounted.
They said the rail has been reinforced on newer guns and that the Magpul vertical grip is good to go.

I MISSTATED THE INFO ON HOW TO HOLD A SHOTGUN BY AN EXPERT.

I simply got it wrong when writing the post.

The expert recommends putting the butt into the shoulder with normal pressure, then just before firing PULL THE TRIGGER HAND BACK AND PUSH THE FOREARM HAND FORWARD WITH SOME FORCE TO PUT ISOMETRIC PRESSURE ON THE GUN.
This is a shotgun and possibly rifle version of the Weaver pistol grip technique.
In the video the shotgun did recoil much less then the standard hold.
This is for combat shooting buckshot and slugs, not shooting clays or birds.

The opposing force puts an isometric tension on the gun like the Weaver grip does with a handgun to reduce recoil, increase speed, and accuracy.
The reason for not pulling and pushing until ready to fire is like the Weaver, you'll start shaking from muscle fatigue if you tried to hold it too long.

So, for what it's worth it looks like it might be a valid shotgun shotgun or even close range combat rifle technique.
My concern with this technique and the KSG lower rail was that pushing forward hard on the Magpul VPG combined with the recoil could do some damage.

Most pump shotgun shooters pull BACK on the forearm so the gun will actually open itself under recoil.
Some older types needed to have the forearm "bumped" forward to allow the action lock to disengage, and others need to allow force on the forearm to lessen to allow disengagement.
Some guns will open themselves when fired if the forearm is pulled during recoil, especially with heavy loads.

In any case, this technique of pulling back with the trigger hand and pushing forward with the other hand might be a valid option to reduce heavy load shotgun shooting recoil.
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Old April 26, 2017, 04:30 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dfariswheel View Post
In any case, this technique of pulling back with the trigger hand and pushing forward with the other hand might be a valid option to reduce heavy load shotgun shooting recoil.

If that is something you heard and want to try... definitely give it a shot. As long as it isn't dangerous, why not?

But in regards to me trying it... nope. Sorry, but I don't have any issues shooting shotguns as it. While I'm always considering new things, pushing/pulling while trying to aim a shotgun seems very counterproductive.
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Old April 26, 2017, 05:05 PM   #23
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Quote:
while drawing the recoil pad tight to the shoulder.
Draw it in TOO tight and you're not getting the full benefit of the recoil pad
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Old April 26, 2017, 06:26 PM   #24
Dfariswheel
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Here's the technique demonstrated by Rob Haught:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gq74aiXn1b4

Haught is a 25 year LEO, shooter for Team Beretta, and advisor on shotguns to the FBI.

Last edited by Dfariswheel; April 26, 2017 at 06:32 PM.
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Old April 26, 2017, 10:28 PM   #25
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870

There were a lot of 870's, and still are, riding around in patrol rigs with wood stocks as well. I probably see more used police 870's floating around than old M12's, 37's or the like.
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