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Old November 16, 2013, 09:39 AM   #1
ClydeFrog
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Recent LAX/Los Angeles CA area shooting; EMT response....

I saw a brief TV media item last night that said incident investigators are reporting that the TSA officer wounded by the subject in the LA/LAX airport shooting event, laid on scene bleeding excessively until EMTs/aid could be given.
The victim was there for approx 30 minutes before any first aid or EMTs could get to him.

The TSA officer died from his injuries.
The point of this topic post is for CCW holders & armed professionals to be aware of these events and to be ready if possible to treat any gun shot wounds/first aid if possible because EMTs or fire-rescue may not be there to render aid in a active crime scene/lethal force event.

Basic first aid & milspec type first responder items are available through places like www.policehq.com www.galls.com www.qmuniforms.com www.uscav.com etc.
Uniformed or armed professionals should be able to provide basic first aid or treat common injuries if needed because dire circumstances like the LAX event show how resources may be limited.

Training & carrying a few basic items may make a huge difference in a critical incident.

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Old November 16, 2013, 10:29 AM   #2
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Sad to hear he may have been helped sooner and possibly survived.
But the EMS are not battlefield medics or corpsmen that run into the battle zone to help the fallen.
Thirty minutes to secure the crime scene? Is preserving evidence and clearing the area essential in every situation?
The safety of the first responders is paramount for sure, but one wonders just how to achieve that?
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Old November 16, 2013, 02:17 PM   #3
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I saw an item on a news show that said that the organizations involved had quite recently trained to surround paramedic teams with a suitably armed phalanx of LEOs in order to penetrate an unsecured area and render timely aid in just such a situation. According to the report, it is unclear why the practiced tactic was not employed, and that question is part of an ongoing investigation.
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Old November 17, 2013, 12:16 AM   #4
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I am a paramedic and have worked the street for over 10 years. Historically we have always been trained that we will not, under any circumstances, enter a scene until it is secure. I cannot help anyone if I become a causality myself.

With the relatively recent increase in active shooters and large mobile scenes this practice is being reconsidered. A large, sprawling, scene may take half an hour or more to "secure". During that time people who may have survived their injuries if immediately cared for can die. As states above there has even talk of assigning a body guard team of several officers to accompany trained medics to enter areas of the scene that are considered lower risk, but not secure.

I've only been reading about this over the last year or so, and I know there is some resistance to adopting this policy. To why it was, or was not applied in the case of the TSA shooting I cannot say, but it is a very interesting discussion for future cases.
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Old November 17, 2013, 07:55 AM   #5
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ATF agent, Waco Texas incident....

In the early 1990s, I recall as part of the firefight incident at the compound in Waco Texas, a ATF(Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco & Firearms) special agent was seriously wounded and pinned down. The agent couldn't be removed from the area for approx 20min too.

First aid & first responder skills are worth having if you carry a sidearm or work in a environment where you may not be close to a hospital or trauma care/ER.

"Blow out" kits or Quik-Clot type packs can make a real difference.

Clyde
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Old November 17, 2013, 12:23 PM   #6
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As legally armed citizens we should not only be prepared to cause trauma, but to mitigate it as well. Airway, breathing, and circulation are the basics and you don't need to go to EMT-P school to learn it. If we are already on the scene and are not actively involved in the fight, be prepared to help other good guys with injuries. Be prepared to help victims and even yourself to survive the 30 minutes until the Medics can come in.
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Old November 17, 2013, 06:17 PM   #7
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Unfortunately it seems to be more common as of recent. The LAX shooting isn't the only recent one. The Officer Libke who was shot in Oregon at a house fire waited supposedly 90 min and died from his injuries at some point.

http://www.policeone.com/patrol-issu...for-ambulance/

There is an argument to be made for having LEO be trained/certified also as a medical responder, or EMT-B, and I have heard some on the LE side argue for an EMT-T (Tactical EMT basically). You can argue that LE can provide a needed basic level of care or triage if the scene is safe enough, etc. Others tend to argue that "Great, we can stretch the LEO's thinner by having them run EMS calls too!" Then you have some on the EMS side debating how few patient contact hours/experience LEO's would have, and that it would be better to leave it with EMS. Not picking any one side, just sharing the points others keep pointing out to me.

As to my personal opinion. I would like to see LE and EMS work on getting more EMT-B's (as well as I's and P's too) in the first responder network (Fire/Rescue/EMS/LE) and keeping them there. Why? Not just mass shootings, but everyday instances as well, though I don't think that LE need to be medical responders as well. While I do appreciate EMS, I do feel that other first response agencies can provide a needed level of care that perhaps for some reasons, such as scene safety, regular EMS does not. If there is too much resistance from EMS, then perhaps LE should work on creating its own basic medical program similar to what is discussed about the EMT-T.
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Old November 17, 2013, 06:41 PM   #8
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Recent LAX/Los Angeles CA area shooting; EMT response....

Seems to me it has to be an LE medic rather than a tactical EMT. The LE agency is already prepared for the liability, insurance and training for active shooter incidents. At least the SWAT should have a combat medic equivalent. And as soon as they show up start figuring a way to secure the immediate area of a casualty and render aid and not wait for the entire crime scene to be secure. At a mall or school that could be securing one room or hallway versus an entire campus.
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Old November 17, 2013, 07:38 PM   #9
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No Heroes, HRT, first aid for victims....

In the non fiction book; No Heroes, about how the FBI's elite Hostage Rescue Team(HRT) was started & run, the FBI had the team members who were trained in first aid/medical support placed in major US city ERs/trauma wards to learn first hand how to handle gun shots, cuts, burns, etc.
Many US Air Force ParaRescue & US Army SF(spec ops) send medics to cross train in major US cities too.
That's a smart move. Young team members get real world skills & learn how to deal with stress/injury/ERs.

As for rendering aid to armed felons or attackers, I would say; no.
Unless you are a MD or RN & can explain your actions in court or a death investigation, Id wait for EMTs or fire-rescue.

As noted in the forum in other topics, former US Surgeon General; Richard Corona(who ran for the US Senate & was a SF medic in SE Asia), shot & killed a violent subject who attacked him as he ran towards a car accident to render aid.
Corona(check spelling) was a "SWAT doc". He was a combat veteran & trained in LE tactics in addition to his formal medical degree.

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Old November 17, 2013, 09:33 PM   #10
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ClydeFrog,


You bring up a good idea about cross training. In reality though with public agencies, it leaves one very important question....................Just who is you master/boss? Its a very important question to ask indeed. Why? Funding! Funding is the one issue that everyone wants for theirself and denies the others.

Last edited by Fishing_Cabin; November 17, 2013 at 09:44 PM.
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Old November 18, 2013, 03:05 AM   #11
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IIRC the long delay in getting medical aid to victims was an issue in the Columbine shootings too.
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Old November 20, 2013, 09:09 PM   #12
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Quote:
Seems to me it has to be an LE medic rather than a tactical EMT. The LE agency is already prepared for the liability, insurance and training for active shooter incidents. At least the SWAT should have a combat medic equivalent. And as soon as they show up start figuring a way to secure the immediate area of a casualty and render aid and not wait for the entire crime scene to be secure. At a mall or school that could be securing one room or hallway versus an entire campus.

I've heard this proposal several times. I have nothing against it, but logistically it is very difficult. EMT basic is a 4 month class. Some states require EMT-I before becoming a paramedic, which is another 4 months. Paramedic school is a calendar year, give or take.

So you're looking at nearly 2 years to train to the paramedic level. Find agencies that want to give up people for that long and want to pay for it, as well as officers that want to dedicate two years of their life to medicine. Then you have to find a way to this officer to run some medical calls, just to keep their skills up.

The answer is to find medics who are willing to join with teams assigned to recover casualities. They won't be "officers" so they can't arrest someone, but the personnel escorting them will be. Give them armor, equipment, and a handgun to defend themselves. An inicident commander must understand that escort unit must be dedicated to that, or no casualities will be recovered, as I wouldn't be willing to go in alone, but I would take that risk with an escort.

Last edited by kinoons; November 20, 2013 at 09:15 PM.
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Old November 20, 2013, 11:57 PM   #13
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While the training is good to have, I don't see me as Joe CHL conceal carrying my pistol, spare mag, and then a first responder trauma pack. Yeah, I have some first aid gear in my car, but as we know, what is in the car is often pretty worthless when you aren't actually in or at your car.

A lot of the cops have trauma gear in their vehicles. LAX has medical supplies posted at numerous localities in their facilities. If LEOs could reach the downed TSA agent, then they should have been able to get him some immediate medical help.

However, as I have seen several times, lots of cops are often very hesitant to administer any sort of significant first aid, instead insisting that the paramedics will arrive soon. I am not speaking poorly of cops, but simply pointing out what I have observed. Certainly, not all cops have much first aid training or do not feel their priority is to administer any first aid even if they do have the capability.
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Old November 21, 2013, 11:11 AM   #14
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We have good first aid kits at home, that include tourniquets and pressure bandages. We're fortunate because in addition to the classes I've taken on my own, my teenage sons and my husband have all joined the local volunteer fire department, which means everyone in our house knows how (and when) to use a tourniquet and other emergency medical aids.

On the range, I keep a blowout kit in my range bag, and know how to use it. That's an easy no-brainer for sure -- especially since so many ranges are in remote rural locations where we can expect response times to be slow.

There's a trauma kit in every car we own. Again, an easy no-brainer. Given the number of car accidents, you're far more likely to need it in your car than anywhere else.

With all that, I've never carried one with me all the time. Girl pockets aren't roomy enough to carry more than a chapstick, and I don't carry a large purse. The physical challenge of keeping the kit with me all the time doesn't seem worth the hassle, especially since it's so easy to improvise ways to stop bleeding once you know how. The know-how is by far the most important thing you can carry with you, and it doesn't require good pockets.

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Old November 21, 2013, 05:20 PM   #15
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QuikClot, mentioned in post 5 by ClydeFrog. I carry a couple in each vehicle. Two sizes, and the smaller one fits in my back pocket, pretty sure the larger one would fit in a suit coat side pocket. QuikClot, in my opinion is worth looking into.
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Old November 24, 2013, 01:03 PM   #16
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I have a kit in the car and a fuller one at home.

But I don't carry on my person. Interestingly, one work environment has a pretty good kit wall mounted in the break room. They have offered training.

Another refuses to do so as their lawyers fear liability in case you use their kit or supplied training to put a tourniquet around someone's neck or the like.

Best to bleed out, I suppose. One might argue you could sue them for not having such but given recent decisions, I doubt you would win.
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