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Old April 23, 2012, 01:13 PM   #76
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Nnobby45 - thanks for posting both videos.

The first one (today, 4/23/12 at 1:00pm CDT) is someone shooting an AR15 .223 using an EoTech sight. I liked watching it a lot.

The wannbe video was interesting too...I now know who invented the F- word and the S-word. (Well, maybe not invented it, but he might have perfected it.) That said, the Mossberg Mariner looks like it will shoot.
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Old April 23, 2012, 07:32 PM   #77
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Given your two choices for HD, I would pick the 12 gauge. The shotgun would be easier to defend your house against several armed intruders (with one shot) than the lever action.

I like the ammo selection with the 12 gauge and can even be fitted with a light.

Good luck,

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Old April 24, 2012, 10:55 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by tazbigdog
Given your two choices for HD, I would pick the 12 gauge. The shotgun would be easier to defend your house against several armed intruders (with one shot)...
How do you figure that? Are you aware that at across the room distances a shotgun pattern is only a few inches in diameter?
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Old April 24, 2012, 02:17 PM   #79
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The birdshot will eliminate many people as it forms a column of incredible destructive power and zaps through the first guy and then spreads out to a cloud of lethality.

Or when they hear the rack, they will flee in abject terror.

That's how! We all know that.

The answer to the question - already stated - is the weapon you train with and shoot best. Either would be just fine.

But train with both, perhaps.
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Old April 24, 2012, 08:52 PM   #80
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yes dead right there, most of the shot hit him in the throat/ upper chest and dropped him where he stood
Out of curiosity, how did the shooter fair with the justice system after shooting a man in his driveway?
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Old April 26, 2012, 02:01 AM   #81
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At very close ranges, I think the opponents of bird shot would be really surprised at the damage it does. a load of bird shot from 8 feet can destroy a person's skull. a suicide by shotgun leaves a cored out empty shell. I'll post pics maybe.

Can you hit a 350 pound lardbucket in the chest at 35 feet and mortally wound him? whole different question.

My choice is still and always will be a .357 carbine instead of a standard bird hunting shotgun. A police style combat shotgun would at least be worth considering.

btw, our home is close to 3k square feet, and the longest possible range of fire is still only 25 feet or so.
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Old April 26, 2012, 10:19 PM   #82
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I have a Maverick 88 with a pistol grip and 18.5" barrel. Perfect for my small apartment.
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Old April 26, 2012, 11:40 PM   #83
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I would like to see some verified reports of the use of birdshot or trap and skeet shells in SD situations. Like the 22 LR, not the best choice but more effective than is given credit for.
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Old April 26, 2012, 11:58 PM   #84
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Nnobby45, i'll expand on the story: 16 son comes home at 2400, stepdad here's him drive up and looks out the window, unknown man comes out of darkness and opens car door and sticks pistol in still setted 16 yo's face and demands money and vehicle . Stepdad see's this from window ,grabs shotgun opens front door man raises up to face stepdad and gets a load of birdshot in upper chest and throat area. Drt., clean shoot
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Old April 27, 2012, 12:24 AM   #85
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I bought one of the Winchester 357 lever guns, and it jammed frequently. A friend had a Marlin 357 lever gun, and I don't remember it every jamming. Don't know if this is typical or not, but I've not heard good things about the current production Marlins (bought out by Remington). I'd choose the shotgun for reliability issues after my experience.
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Old April 27, 2012, 12:40 AM   #86
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It's been a while since I started this thread. Based on suggestions and my own thoughts and situation, I think I'll stick with the shotgun. I've had that about 14 years compared the the lever gun, which I've had less than a year. I've probably put 50 times more rounds through the shotgun and can cycle the pump significantly faster.

I think I'll try to arrange solid backdrops in directions where I think I'd be most apt to shoot if I ever had to. I'd rather do that than go with birdshot. #4 buck might be the smallest I'd want to go. I seriously hope I'd never have to pull the trigger, but if I did, I wouldn't want to rely on birdshot probably being adequate.

Last edited by idek; April 27, 2012 at 12:50 AM.
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Old April 27, 2012, 08:51 AM   #87
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Idek, book cases will do a good job. attach an inch thick sheet of plywood to the back. You can line any wall with 1" hard plywood, and this will prevent a lot of the danger; it will scatter and slow down a near contact impact, and it will possibly stop and certainly slow down a round that has spread some already.

aluminum siding will not stop a bullet unless it is fired from a compact .45 acp.

I used to stack my spare lumber against an external wall of my garage in line with the hallway of my ranch style home. I had a stone fireplace and 6- 10 inches of boards between my neighbor's house and my own in case I fired down the hallway and missed.

When I realized just what a complete wanker the guy was, I moved the boards and prayed every day for a nighttime home invasion.
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Old April 27, 2012, 09:08 AM   #88
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sigshr, here is what you want to do. Go to the nearest college/university, and consult the library. find every possible book on homicide investigation and forensics, and skim through them for information.

I don't care how many deer you've gutted out, be prepared to see week dead floaters that were chewed by turtles and crayfish, rotting corpses, eyeballs glued to a wall by a film of blood, and so forth. Adipocere (spontaneous saponification) is almost tolerable until you see it in color.

One thing that you may find is the explanation for the relative effectiveness of very short range shotgun loads.

Divide the charge into 1/4 ounce layers. The first 1/4 ounce will tear holes and lacerate tissues a few inches deep. the second layer will partially go through the same lacerated tissues, and punch a bit deeper after it passes the first charge. The same process follows. Every pellet that strikes previously damaged tissues will slip through it like hamburger. It was described in terms of hammering a nail in 4 blows.

This only applies when that charge is still almost a semi-fluid wad of shot smaller than a golf ball. When spread out, each pellet must fend for itself, it cannot depend on another pellet to aid in penetratioin.
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Old April 28, 2012, 11:32 AM   #89
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^ uh...

Wouldn't it just be easier to see the laws of physics demostrated in something like a test media?

Brassfetcher's test on #1 Buck - penetrating to about 13"

Brasfetcher's test with #4 Buck penetrating to about 8.5" (I'm just guessing based on how far apart his braces are on the underside of the block.

My main points are

Shot spreads out and shot slows down, it does this in air and it does it in water or ordnance gel or the human body.

You can visibly see that the #4 shot slows down much more quickly than the #1 Buck, it penetrates less, but also, the direction of some of the #4 Buck changes at a greater angle than the #1 Buck.

Just the laws of nature - try changing the direction of a rolling marble versus a rolling shot put. Try stopping a rolling shotput versus stopping a rolling marble.

Birdshot does spread out, and it basically comes to halt.

I'm thinking that shooting someone with birdshot in the throat / neck is probably more lethal than shoting them in the chest. The throat is relatively soft tissue, major arteries are only a few inches deep, but even if the birdshot didn't penetrate to a major blood vessel, tearing up the esophagus and the trachea is going to cause a person to choke to death.
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Old April 28, 2012, 04:57 PM   #90
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Gelatin can't replicate the human body. if you want to see what shotguns do to people, look at people that have been shot with shotguns. Don't bother looking at the ones that just happened to be behind a quail, look at the ones That took a full charge to the face or chest, deliberately. Plenty of pictures of dead people available with shotgun wounds.
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Old April 28, 2012, 05:49 PM   #91
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My idea of a good government program, something I could say "now that's tax money well spent." would be a national program / federal funding for all coroners to input data into a national database that showed what caliber and brand of bullet a person got hit with... how deeply each round penetrated, recover diameter and weight, what structures / organs it hit and passed through or was stopped by.

That would be awsome.
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Old April 29, 2012, 12:31 AM   #92
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it'd never do any good. too much of this is so subjective and open to individual factors to glean any meaningful data from it. When we manage to collect 10,000 shootings, and run the comprehensive information through top line artificial intelligence programs we will still not be able to predict what will happen to victim #10,001. That's the point, right? predicting how a bullet will function in any given situation?

The real solution is to design good bullets that will open up in gunky wet stuff like muscle and will still manage to open up in many dry things, and in the end, you will still have put a hole in someone of at least that bullet diameter, and that hole may kill him.
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Old April 29, 2012, 12:34 AM   #93
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and that hole will stop him.
There, fixed it for ya.
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Old May 25, 2012, 01:08 AM   #94
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not for everybody

Since tHe OP is a gun guy, or sounds to be, I'm inclined to favor the shotgun in his circumstance..

And it is the scattergun that stands ready in several corners of the bamahouse to defend my hearth as well. But.....

The 12ga shotgun, or even a 20, is not for everyone. Typically they are heavy, have substantial recoil, and a somewhat complicated manual of arms. Bamawife, for example, will not weigh 100 lbs soaking wet in a winter coat with the pockets full of cast bullets. For her, and others similar, some type of low recoil carbine makes more sense.
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Old May 25, 2012, 01:33 AM   #95
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Shotgun, hands down. Best defense for a home ever. 000 buckshot. Anyone looking down the barrel of a shotgun held by frightened or cornered homeowner is going to get the h*ll out of Dodge and fast! And if you actually NEED to pull the trigger, it'll get the job done without the need to have perfect aim. And if you get a pump action, everyone knows and fears the sound of a pump action being worked. Now you're talking FEAR FACTOR.
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Old May 25, 2012, 10:05 AM   #96
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The guy might have hunted rabbits all his life and be an expert with a shotgun. He might shoot his rifle in cowboy action events every weekend and be better with the lever gun. Both will work and which ever one he feels most comfortable with should be the choice.
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Old May 25, 2012, 03:50 PM   #97
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We have discussed racking as a deliberate tactic endlessly. Conclusion, when the shotgun comes to hand, you rack to get it ready. Sound effects are a side effect.

Besides, if I were a stone cold (cliche) BG, ready to do evil, when I hear the rack, I would fire a few rounds at the sound. Thus, Mr. Shotgun is now the one getting poopy. Why give away position, etc.?
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Old May 25, 2012, 04:50 PM   #98
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I agree with 44AMP's post #55.

To clarify (Lost Sheep's post #4) the power of two Remington 12 ga. double 0 buckshot rounds:

Shell Length - 2 3/4" Pellet Cnt. - 9 (1.125 oz.) Shot Size - 00 FPS - 1,325
492 grains @ 1325 fps = 1918 ft lbs
Shell Length - 2 3/4" Pellet Cnt. - 15 (1.5 oz.) Shot Size - 00 FPS - 1,225
656 grains @ 1225 fps = 2186 ft lbs

Shot for shot the 12 ga. buckshot load is superior in power to any .357 magnum load.

These projectiles will exceed the speed of sound which is about 1,126 ft/s depending on air density.
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Old May 25, 2012, 05:18 PM   #99
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I personally have never shot a .357 lever but I do own a marlin .44 magnum lever action and it is wonderful!
If I had to choose between a 12ga and a lever action rifle I would choose a 12ga. Nothing against a lever action but you can just cover a larger area with a shotgun and in home defends that can mean less aiming and more blasting!!!
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Old May 25, 2012, 06:06 PM   #100
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I seriously doubt the often vaunted spread of the 12 ga is effective at in the house ranges. You still have to aim to hit the target. I have seen rabbits shot at 15 ft with #6 shot. It went right through the rabbits like a slug with only a couple of pieces of shot spread out. That translates to little expansion at in the house ranges.
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