Full auto handguns, Beretta 93R, Glock 18

C Philip · February 19, 2005, 01:41 AM

I was very interested to find out about full auto handguns such as the Beretta 93R and the Glock 18. Are there any other guns like these? How can I get one? These would be great for CCW for obvious reasons. The full auto fire power in the size of a normal handgun would be great. Any other models or info?

shaggy · February 19, 2005, 06:47 AM

There are a handful of "transferable" 93Rs built on Taurus frames. Last one I saw for sale was over $20,000. If there are any transferable G18's, they are even more rare and would be significantly more expensive (probably $30,000+). There are also some S&W59's which are till quite rare, but could probably be had for under $20K.

fal308 · February 19, 2005, 06:59 AM

There are other FA handguns but the Beretta and the Glock are comparatively commonplace compared to others out there. The Stechkin, Drotik, and Pernach are Russian select-fire pistols.
Some of the early autoloaders had FA capability also; Mauser Broomhandle for one. Can't recall offhand if the Bergmann, the Borchardt, the Mars, or the Manlicher <sp> had FA or not.

fal308 · February 19, 2005, 07:02 AM

Shaggy,
Never heard of a 59 FA. Or are you talking about a Hush Puppy style? Saw a 1911 FA at Knob Creek going at it on the line a couple of years ago. That was really cool!

shaggy · February 19, 2005, 08:49 AM

There's a handful of converted 59's out there. I think Jerry Prasser at Recon Ordnance had one or two. I can't remember who the conversion manufacturer was, but there was an article in SAR about them last year (IIRC). They were some sort of a "sear" type conversion so although they weren't factory F/A guns, the registered part could be moved from one host to another.

And speaking of the odd/unusual/rare machinepistol, ever hear of a Trejo? A friend of mine collects full auto .22's and has a Trejo, sn#1 (and yes, he even shoots it!).

BCannell · February 19, 2005, 09:36 AM

I believe there is also a fully automatic version of the CZ-75B.

Hkmp5sd · February 19, 2005, 11:47 AM

Even if you could get one, carrying a full-auto submachinegun as a CCW would not be a good idea for obvious reasons. Plus, it may be illegal, as it is in Florida.

Casp_A · February 19, 2005, 04:53 PM

Hey, don't forget about the Star MD!

max popenker · February 20, 2005, 04:16 AM

Well, also there were Astras (901 through 904), as well as Schnellfeuer versions of Mauser C96...

and those ugly Steyr M1911/P16, with fixed 16-rd mags...

Chipperman · March 3, 2005, 04:32 PM

Also the HK VP70 with the shoulder stock.
Don't know how many transferables there are, but not many.

GeorgeF · March 4, 2005, 10:05 AM

Actually would be BAD for CCW. The first best reason is that if you DO have to use it to defend yourself, the police will generally confiscate it until investigation is over - very annoying and who knows what may happen to it while out of your care.

MORE importantly is you are spraying a lot of rounds with a full auto not-so-controllable pistol. What do you think is going to happen if ONE round hits an innocent? You'll have the first incident where the anti's can use to go after our full-autos. Up to now we have a spotless record - all we need is for one person to abuse it to make it bad for rest of us.

Sorry to come off so heavy-handed, but it's hard enough to find full autos that are transferrable, but think ho wbad it could be if popular opinion went against us. No thanks.

cuate · March 4, 2005, 12:02 PM

Two thoughts on full auto handguns.......First, many or most LEOs would be outgunned and the BGs would get hold of them and we'd all have a problem. And I would feel uncomfortable if the LEOs were packing that type handgun.

My big bore handguns buck and snort when the trigger is pulled and it is easy to imagine the climb of a FA headed upward. Since the primary goal is to hit the target of a BG,
additional projectiles abover either would not accomplish the goal of hitting what you aim at.

Full auto other types are available, fun to shoot, and with approval by ATF and local Leos and a tax stamp one may obtain and own them. I love to shoot them but like having more than one wife, can ill afford to feed them.

NSO_w/_SIG · March 4, 2005, 02:41 PM

"These would be great for CCW for obvious reasons"

No it wouldn't be. It would disaterous.

abelew · March 4, 2005, 06:06 PM

FA weapons, BAD FOR CCW! You still have the same ammount of ammo if you use a FA handgun, or a traditional one. The only difference is that you have fewer rounds impacting the target, so in essence, you have fewer rounds to begin with. Would I like to have a FA handgun, yep, but I would never CCW it, or use it for defense, unless it was a last ditch effort, and no other weapon was avaliable. Not to mention the legal ramifications of such use.

smince · March 6, 2005, 03:37 PM

They require A LOT MORE PRACTICE to control than a regular handgun.

Hkmp5sd · March 6, 2005, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Two thoughts on full auto handguns.......First, many or most LEOs would be outgunned and the BGs would get hold of them and we'd all have a problem. And I would feel uncomfortable if the LEOs were packing that type handgun.

You have fallen into the typical "anti" trap. First, LEOs can legally carry any firearm manufactured anywhere in the world if that is what their agency wants to issue them. LEOs are only outgunned if their department causes them to be.

Second, a full auto handgun isn't any more "dangerous" than any other firearm. The Beretta 93R, Glock 18, M11/9, Micro Uzi, Mini Uzi, standard Uzi and the MP5 all shoot the exact same bullet, so how is one more dangerous to LEOs than the others?

Third, as for "the BGs would get hold of them...", by definition, the BG does not obey laws. As such, he can get any firearm manufactured anywhere in the world if he desires it.

It is illogical to believe that banning anything from the average citizen would result in the inability of a criminal to obtain that item. It is illegal to possess, manufacture, sale, use, import and distribute crack cocaine. There are no legal sources for crack cocaine in the US. Yet, anyone that wants crack cocaine can have some in less than 30 minutes if they choose to get some. Do you think banning civilian ownership of the Glock 18 will prevent a single BG that wants one from getting one?

WillBrayjr · March 6, 2005, 07:21 PM

The problem with the H&K VP70Z isn't getting one because they're easy to find. The problem is getting the stock!

cpileri · March 6, 2005, 10:00 PM

There are no legal sources for crack cocaine in the US

Actually, if you are a researcher with a DEA liscence approved for schedule I controlled substances, you can order free base cocaine from certain supply retailers. Not even (most) doctors can do this, as any drug with approval for human use is by definition Schedule II or less. Cocaine is a Schedule II, but free base cocaine is schedule I.

And cpileri jumps off the plane so as not to hijack it further...

C-

boofus · March 6, 2005, 10:59 PM

Quote:

The problem with the H&K VP70Z isn't getting one because they're easy to find. The problem is getting the stock

The VP70M is the one that can be used select-fire with the stock. The VP70Z won't work, and transferable VP70M's are just about as rare as transferable Glocks and Berettas

WillBrayjr · March 6, 2005, 11:05 PM

I would have to do some checking on that. I'm not too sharp when it comes to NFA firearms because I don't have the money or need for them.

max popenker · March 9, 2005, 06:38 AM

well, here's the most controllable machine pistol: the Steckin APB, a silenced version of APS

Note that all 10 shots were fired in short bursts, at the range of 25 meters, with the shoulder stock attached.
first 4-round burst went up ant to the left, the rest were dead on.
Recoil was negligible, and the sound was not louder than yout srandard .22LR pistol.
The worst thing was that i was given way too few rounds of ammunition to get a real fun.
Still, it was excellent experience.

DeanC · March 9, 2005, 12:43 PM

I'll have to post a pic of my Glock 18 target. I've got a few more holes because I got to shoot 2 - 30rd mags, but my patterns weren't any tighter

A very specialized weapon!

3 weelin geezer · March 9, 2005, 04:38 PM

william, I too have no need for a suppressor but I still want one as the french say 'I don't know why'. Or was that 'I don't know what'? Well, who cares what they say. I don't know why I still have over 20 guns not that I use all of them regularly but I still like looking at them from time to time and not having to ask someone if I may.

jonathon · March 14, 2005, 10:12 PM

Quote:

MORE importantly is you are spraying a lot of rounds with a full auto not-so-controllable pistol. What do you think is going to happen if ONE round hits an innocent? You'll have the first incident where the anti's can use to go after our full-autos. Up to now we have a spotless record - all we need is for one person to abuse it to make it bad for rest of us.

You do realize that by saying that, you pretty much made CCW as a whole sound bad? Bullets penetrate, shots miss. Its a fact of life.

The only reasons that a Machine pistol wouldn't be good for concealed carry are:

1) size, either they have to be large to control, or so small you can't control it

2) ammunition consumption

3) accuracy

4) noise

Whats the point of wasting the funds for a machine pistol to carry it, just to maybe get the same amount of hits as you would with any standard semi-automatic.

Machine pistols were designed with one thought, suppression fire.

TEN-RING · March 19, 2005, 02:15 PM

Of the 4 drawbacks listed, I see the 4th one as the worst. Long strings of fire will draw the BG to your site. Is there a way to limit the string to 2 or 3 rounds? Yes: switch off of FA, and pull your own strings of 3 or 4. And be sure to relocate after each burst ,if possible.

February 19, 2005, 11:47 AM	#7
Hkmp5sd Senior Member Join Date: December 15, 2001 Location: Winter Haven, Florida Posts: 4,303	Even if you could get one, carrying a full-auto submachinegun as a CCW would not be a good idea for obvious reasons. Plus, it may be illegal, as it is in Florida. __________________ NRA Certified Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, Home Safety, Personal Protection, Range Safety Officer NRA Life Member

February 19, 2005, 04:53 PM	#8
Casp_A Senior Member Join Date: August 12, 2004 Posts: 495	Hey, don't forget about the Star MD! __________________ Johnny was a chemist's son, but Johnny is no more. What Johnny thought was H2O was H2SO4.

February 20, 2005, 04:16 AM	#9
max popenker Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2002 Posts: 130	Well, also there were Astras (901 through 904), as well as Schnellfeuer versions of Mauser C96... and those ugly Steyr M1911/P16, with fixed 16-rd mags... __________________ Signed: Maxim Popenker Modern Firearms website

March 4, 2005, 12:02 PM	#12
cuate Junior member Join Date: February 18, 2005 Location: Comanche Co. Texas Posts: 737	Full Auto Handguns Two thoughts on full auto handguns.......First, many or most LEOs would be outgunned and the BGs would get hold of them and we'd all have a problem. And I would feel uncomfortable if the LEOs were packing that type handgun. My big bore handguns buck and snort when the trigger is pulled and it is easy to imagine the climb of a FA headed upward. Since the primary goal is to hit the target of a BG, additional projectiles abover either would not accomplish the goal of hitting what you aim at. Full auto other types are available, fun to shoot, and with approval by ATF and local Leos and a tax stamp one may obtain and own them. I love to shoot them but like having more than one wife, can ill afford to feed them.

March 4, 2005, 06:06 PM	#14
abelew Senior Member Join Date: November 29, 2004 Location: Florida Posts: 778	FA weapons, BAD FOR CCW! You still have the same ammount of ammo if you use a FA handgun, or a traditional one. The only difference is that you have fewer rounds impacting the target, so in essence, you have fewer rounds to begin with. Would I like to have a FA handgun, yep, but I would never CCW it, or use it for defense, unless it was a last ditch effort, and no other weapon was avaliable. Not to mention the legal ramifications of such use. __________________ "Where the choice is between only violence and cowardice, I would advise violence." ~ Mohatma Gandhi

February 19, 2005, 01:41 AM	#1
C Philip Senior Member Join Date: January 9, 2005 Location: USA Posts: 784	Full auto handguns, Beretta 93R, Glock 18 I was very interested to find out about full auto handguns such as the Beretta 93R and the Glock 18. Are there any other guns like these? How can I get one? These would be great for CCW for obvious reasons. The full auto fire power in the size of a normal handgun would be great. Any other models or info?

February 19, 2005, 06:47 AM	#2
shaggy Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2004 Posts: 1,519	There are a handful of "transferable" 93Rs built on Taurus frames. Last one I saw for sale was over $20,000. If there are any transferable G18's, they are even more rare and would be significantly more expensive (probably $30,000+). There are also some S&W59's which are till quite rare, but could probably be had for under $20K.

February 19, 2005, 06:59 AM	#3
fal308 Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 12, 1998 Location: Missouri Posts: 1,992	There are other FA handguns but the Beretta and the Glock are comparatively commonplace compared to others out there. The Stechkin, Drotik, and Pernach are Russian select-fire pistols. Some of the early autoloaders had FA capability also; Mauser Broomhandle for one. Can't recall offhand if the Bergmann, the Borchardt, the Mars, or the Manlicher <sp> had FA or not.

February 19, 2005, 07:02 AM	#4
fal308 Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 12, 1998 Location: Missouri Posts: 1,992	Shaggy, Never heard of a 59 FA. Or are you talking about a Hush Puppy style? Saw a 1911 FA at Knob Creek going at it on the line a couple of years ago. That was really cool!

February 19, 2005, 08:49 AM	#5
shaggy Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2004 Posts: 1,519	There's a handful of converted 59's out there. I think Jerry Prasser at Recon Ordnance had one or two. I can't remember who the conversion manufacturer was, but there was an article in SAR about them last year (IIRC). They were some sort of a "sear" type conversion so although they weren't factory F/A guns, the registered part could be moved from one host to another. And speaking of the odd/unusual/rare machinepistol, ever hear of a Trejo? A friend of mine collects full auto .22's and has a Trejo, sn#1 (and yes, he even shoots it!).

February 19, 2005, 09:36 AM	#6
BCannell Senior Member Join Date: January 12, 2005 Posts: 136	I believe there is also a fully automatic version of the CZ-75B.

March 3, 2005, 04:32 PM	#10
Chipperman Senior Member Join Date: January 31, 2000 Location: Live Free or Die, Baby! Posts: 1,550	Also the HK VP70 with the shoulder stock. Don't know how many transferables there are, but not many.

March 4, 2005, 10:05 AM	#11
GeorgeF Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2004 Posts: 572	Actually would be BAD for CCW. The first best reason is that if you DO have to use it to defend yourself, the police will generally confiscate it until investigation is over - very annoying and who knows what may happen to it while out of your care. MORE importantly is you are spraying a lot of rounds with a full auto not-so-controllable pistol. What do you think is going to happen if ONE round hits an innocent? You'll have the first incident where the anti's can use to go after our full-autos. Up to now we have a spotless record - all we need is for one person to abuse it to make it bad for rest of us. Sorry to come off so heavy-handed, but it's hard enough to find full autos that are transferrable, but think ho wbad it could be if popular opinion went against us. No thanks.

March 4, 2005, 02:41 PM	#13
NSO_w/_SIG Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 2004 Posts: 553	"These would be great for CCW for obvious reasons" No it wouldn't be. It would disaterous.

March 6, 2005, 03:37 PM	#15
smince Junior member Join Date: October 9, 2004 Location: Northeast Alabama Posts: 2,580	They require A LOT MORE PRACTICE to control than a regular handgun.

March 6, 2005, 07:21 PM	#17
WillBrayjr Junior member Join Date: September 26, 2004 Location: Northern Indiana Posts: 1,881	The problem with the H&K VP70Z isn't getting one because they're easy to find. The problem is getting the stock!

March 6, 2005, 10:00 PM	#18
cpileri Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 2001 Location: Peoples Republik of Maryland, Sister State to Kalifornia Posts: 619	trivia time There are no legal sources for crack cocaine in the US Actually, if you are a researcher with a DEA liscence approved for schedule I controlled substances, you can order free base cocaine from certain supply retailers. Not even (most) doctors can do this, as any drug with approval for human use is by definition Schedule II or less. Cocaine is a Schedule II, but free base cocaine is schedule I. And cpileri jumps off the plane so as not to hijack it further... C- __________________ ___________________________ "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -- William Pitt (1783)

March 6, 2005, 11:05 PM	#20
WillBrayjr Junior member Join Date: September 26, 2004 Location: Northern Indiana Posts: 1,881	I would have to do some checking on that. I'm not too sharp when it comes to NFA firearms because I don't have the money or need for them.

March 9, 2005, 06:38 AM	#21
max popenker Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2002 Posts: 130	well, here's the most controllable machine pistol: the Steckin APB, a silenced version of APS Note that all 10 shots were fired in short bursts, at the range of 25 meters, with the shoulder stock attached. first 4-round burst went up ant to the left, the rest were dead on. Recoil was negligible, and the sound was not louder than yout srandard .22LR pistol. The worst thing was that i was given way too few rounds of ammunition to get a real fun. Still, it was excellent experience. __________________ Signed: Maxim Popenker Modern Firearms website

March 9, 2005, 12:43 PM	#22
DeanC Junior Member Join Date: July 13, 2004 Location: Minneapolis Posts: 7	I'll have to post a pic of my Glock 18 target. I've got a few more holes because I got to shoot 2 - 30rd mags, but my patterns weren't any tighter A very specialized weapon!

March 9, 2005, 04:38 PM	#23
3 weelin geezer Senior Member Join Date: June 25, 2004 Posts: 438	william, I too have no need for a suppressor but I still want one as the french say 'I don't know why'. Or was that 'I don't know what'? Well, who cares what they say. I don't know why I still have over 20 guns not that I use all of them regularly but I still like looking at them from time to time and not having to ask someone if I may.

March 19, 2005, 02:15 PM	#25
TEN-RING Member Join Date: March 19, 2005 Location: MidWest, Central time zone. Posts: 19	FA "Pocket guns" Of the 4 drawbacks listed, I see the 4th one as the worst. Long strings of fire will draw the BG to your site. Is there a way to limit the string to 2 or 3 rounds? Yes: switch off of FA, and pull your own strings of 3 or 4. And be sure to relocate after each burst ,if possible. __________________ The real threat of hot lead controls crime better than the possible threat of cold, steel bars.// Solution to illegal migration invasion: head-shots. (Cameras, of course)