Would these parts do it? AR-15 full auto conversion parts

del la sol · November 12, 2002, 02:52 PM

Just so you guys know I do not own a ar-15 and although i'm half-way looking for one, half-way dreaming if i do end up getting one in the near future i do not have any intention of attempting to convert it to fully automatic, but i just can't seem to leave anything i own in factory form so before i have even purchased a ar-15 i started looking at accesseries and ran into these parts kits... having read up a bit it seems to be pretty well understood that it would take 3000+$ in parts alone, lots of paper work, etc. to convert a ar-15 to full auto, this just seems too cheap and easy to be for real and i've found on the net things that are usually cheap/easy aren't all they seem to be... heres the parts auctions i found... technically if you were to obtain these would that be all you would need to convert your ar-15 to full-auto?
complete bolt and carrier
Hammer, trigger, selector, disconnector, full auto sear w/ pin

also they had this... i had heard if converting to simple safe/full auto was hard converting to select fire was much much more difficult, so i'm assuming these parts added to those above wouldn't do it?
DPMS 4 position fire control

Lawnmower · November 12, 2002, 05:47 PM

del la sol · November 12, 2002, 06:01 PM

how so? i can legally own every single one of those parts, since i dont own a ar-15 or keep one in my home... and if i do end up owning one i do not plan at all on doing a conversion as a) i dont want to become a felon b) shooting a semi-auto .223 is expensive enough for me, i simply could not afford to shoot full auto... so whats the harm in asking, no laws being broken if i did follow through with buying them anyways, but i'm not so its only a question which isn't about something illegal anyways... i just find it hard to believe that simply buying and dropping in 300$ worth of parts would actually do it and was wondering if this was BS or the real deal even if it is a bit shady

Lawnmower · November 12, 2002, 06:42 PM

how so? i can legally own every single one of those parts, since i dont own a ar-15 or keep one in my home...

You can possess them

and if i do end up owning one i do not plan at all on doing a conversion as

Illegal, as it implies constructive possession of full auto control parts. Felony with penality of up to 10 years jail and $250,000 fine.

shooting a semi-auto .223 is expensive enough for me, i simply could not afford to shoot full auto... so whats the harm in asking, no laws being broken if i did follow through with buying them anyways, but i'm not so its only a question which isn't about something illegal anyways...

It like asking on the internet, how do I make crack cocaine. Perfectly sanction question as per the 1st Admendment, but do you really want to ask that?

i just find it hard to believe that simply buying and dropping in 300$ worth of parts would actually do it and was wondering if this was BS or the real deal even if it is a bit shady

http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/...f_letter52.txt

Kenneth Lew

del la sol · November 13, 2002, 12:20 AM

hmmm let me think... yes i really want to ask those questions, i thought thats why i asked... why, do you make it a habit to go around on forums posting questions that you DO NOT want answered? sounds like a waste of time to me... and it is not like asking about how to make crack cocaine, its not legal to own cocaine... i understand that some could consider it "asking for trouble" but its not, is the ATF going to come to my house and arrest me for asking, is someone that answers going to be arrested for telling me? wheres the trouble? if anyone is looking for trouble(which he is not) it would be the guy selling the parts... by saying i'm asking for trouble you are implying that i plan on doing something illegal, which i am not

Hkmp5sd · November 13, 2002, 12:41 AM

You can ask anything. They guy selling the parts is legal. It is not illegal to sell replacement parts for machineguns. You can buy (some) machinegun parts and keep them in your home legally.

ATF has ruled that possession of machinegun parts, in this case M16 parts and if in possession of an AR15 and a registered M16, it can cause problems, but that is not an absolute.

ATF has ruled that if you possess M16 parts and an AR15 only, you are in possession of an unregistered machinegun and subject to arrest. That is an absolute.

Johnny Guest · November 13, 2002, 01:26 PM

- - - Please understand: We don't want any other member to inadvertently get into to trouble by a misunderstanding of the law.

Now, in answer to your question. Yes, you CAN purchase all the parts necessary to convert an AR15 to full auto/select fire. No, you can't simply "drop in" those parts without certain modifications to the receiver of the AR. CAN it be done in a home workshop? I understand it can. IF a person--let's stipulate he lives outside the USA - - - sets out to make such a conversion, he should have proper knowledge--It is easy to drill holes in the wrong place, for such a simple chore as mounting sights. You can easily ruin the AR for even semiautomatic use.

de la sol, forgive one additional caution - - -
Under current law, there is no legal way for the average person to manufacture a new machine gun and then register it. The law doesn't always make sense, but it IS the law, unless and until it is changed, or until you obtain some hard-to-get expemtion, such as becoming a licensed manufacturer.

If one wants only one example, it is probably less expensive, and certainly FAR less hassle, to simply shop up an M16 with a properly licensed machine gun dealer, pay the high price, complete the ATF Forms 4, and avoid status as a prospective federal felon.

Again--Nothing wrong with asking. The knowledge is not at all illegal. Any constructive move towrd putting the knowledge to use - - -That might attract unwelcome attention.

Best regards,
Johnny

del la sol · November 13, 2002, 01:46 PM

Thanks for the info johnny, i dont mind the cautions at all, in fact i appreciate them, i didn't have a problem with the things kenneth pointed out other than none of them went toward answering the question... i had figured there was probably some machine work involved as there is just no way it could be that simple to do, even if the "simple" route was illegal... so you cannot for example buy a semi-auto ar-15 and convert it to full or select fire and then re-register it was a machine gun and pay the taxes and everything? what if you were a class III dealer? because i could have sworn i read about someone doing this that was a shooting range owner

Johnny Guest · November 13, 2002, 02:53 PM

- - -but, no, I don't believe there is a legal way to do that. Even a Class III dealer cannot--Takes a special manufacturer license. I'm sure you could go directly to the ATF web site and look up all the various types of licenses, and then find the qualifications for such, and this would then detail what each entitles the licensee to do.

As I understand it, in years past, there was an exemption allowing a person to make ONE machine gun for experimental purposes, and to legally register it to himself, without paying the tax or having a mfgrs license. This all changed when the Govt decided there would be NO MORE machine guns licensed for private ownershipo in the USA. Again, this is to the best of my understanding. I am not an attorney, and cannot give legal counsel. Truthfully, though, most licensed attorneys don't know enough about federal firearms law to be of much help.

And, what's really worse, most federal agents have little or no understanding of such--except, of course, "NO, IT'S NOT LEGAL FOR YOU TO OWN A MACHINE GUN! Oh, well, yeah, I GUESS you can get some sort of permit. Nope, can't help you."

You might want to open another topic here on the Full Auto board at TFL, about "Need Legal Advice About Making Machine Guns," or something of the sort. Bet you get some replies.

If you want to research this matter, suggest you go to - - -http://www.nfatoys.com/tsmg/
"The Unofficial Tommy Gun Page." Predictably, they specialize in the Thompson SMG, but there are some useful links oven in the left margin of the home page. There are at least a couple of forums dedicated entirely to various types of full auto firearms, and you might learn something valuable from them.

Sorry my knowledge is so limited, but I'd rather confess ignorance than give another member the wrong information and cause confusion, or, worse, legal problems.

Best of luch,
Johnny

**4V50 Gary** · November 13, 2002, 03:48 PM

I'm no expert on the law, but it's my understanding that the only way you can get a full auto firearm is to purchase an existing and complete gun.

As for the AR itself, bolts are the same regardless of whether it is full or semi. The bolt carrier is what is it different. Also different is the lower receiver (civilian receivers will not accept military auto sears. However, some non-mil-spec auto sears have been designed to fit into civilian receivers) and the parts of the fire control group.

Be warned though, do everything legally through a licensed Class III dealer and you won't worry about your tennis game or making Bubba happy.

Hkmp5sd · November 13, 2002, 07:12 PM

To manufacture a new machinegun, you would have to acquire a federal manufacturer's license from ATF which costs $1000 per year. Then you have to find some government or law enforcement agency that wants you to make a machinegun for them for demonstration purposes. You then fill out the appropriate ATF forms and receive permission from ATF to manufacture the machinegun. Once you go out of business, the firearm must be transfered to another dealer.

If you get a normal Class III dealers license, also $1000 per year, you can add to your inventory pre-'86 machineguns and dealer samples by merely doing the paperwork. If you wish to acquire post-'86 dealer samples, you must get the letter of request for demostration by some government or LE agency just like a manufacturer would. When you leave business, you must transfer all post-'86 samples to another dealer.

The easiest and in the long run cheapest way to acquire a machinegun is to find a Class III dealer, do the ATF paperwork, wait for everything to be approved and take your gun home.

Jake 98c/11b · November 21, 2002, 01:46 PM

I am not quite sure about that last part, as I understand it a manufacturer does not need a demo letter to make anything, nor does he have to request permission from the ATF. A (properly licensed) manufacturer can make anything allowed by his license and he must notify ATF within 24 hours of doing so. A dealer must have letterhead requesting a demo to get a post 86 sample but a manufacturer does not need anything to create. One manufacturer made a machine pisol just to test the effectiveness of his compensators, I don't think it would be practical to get letterhead for that kind of T&E.

STevEMan · March 19, 2011, 11:35 AM

if one was able to legally acquire an m16 and it was registered, would it be legal to change parts such as flat top upper receiver and or a different barrel/hand guard? if its even possible since i am not very familiar with that of a fully automatic gun and the differences between an m16 and an ar 15?

hoytinak · March 19, 2011, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by STevEMan

would it be legal to change parts such as flat top upper receiver and or a different barrel/hand guard?

Yes it'd be legal. You realize this thread is about 9yrs old right?

Ridge_Runner_5 · March 19, 2011, 04:46 PM

Steveman, the lower receiver is the machine gun. You can put whatever upper, whatever caliber you want on it and it will still be legal.

But yeah, this thread is almost 8 and a half years old

medalguy · March 19, 2011, 11:41 PM

Where do we send the birthday card???

Skans · March 21, 2011, 08:04 AM

The answer to the OP's initial question is: No. Don't bother asking me why, I'm not going to instruct someone on how to make an illegal machinegun. But, I do think it is important for folks to know that what the OP has been given some bad or incomplete information. Also, what others have said about owning those parts and an AR can get you in trouble with the BATFE.

Johnny Guest · March 21, 2011, 09:15 AM

Not only was the original question asked some 8-1/2 years ago, member l,del la sol, who opened it, hasn't even been back on TFL since the following day.

The topic was adequately covered at the time, and might should have been closed. If anyone wants to cover NEW ground, feel free to start a new thread.

This one's closed.

Johnny

November 12, 2002, 02:52 PM	#1
del la sol Junior Member Join Date: November 12, 2002 Location: Richmond, VA Posts: 6	Would these parts do it? AR-15 full auto conversion parts Just so you guys know I do not own a ar-15 and although i'm half-way looking for one, half-way dreaming if i do end up getting one in the near future i do not have any intention of attempting to convert it to fully automatic, but i just can't seem to leave anything i own in factory form so before i have even purchased a ar-15 i started looking at accesseries and ran into these parts kits... having read up a bit it seems to be pretty well understood that it would take 3000+$ in parts alone, lots of paper work, etc. to convert a ar-15 to full auto, this just seems too cheap and easy to be for real and i've found on the net things that are usually cheap/easy aren't all they seem to be... heres the parts auctions i found... technically if you were to obtain these would that be all you would need to convert your ar-15 to full-auto? complete bolt and carrier Hammer, trigger, selector, disconnector, full auto sear w/ pin also they had this... i had heard if converting to simple safe/full auto was hard converting to select fire was much much more difficult, so i'm assuming these parts added to those above wouldn't do it? DPMS 4 position fire control

November 12, 2002, 05:47 PM	#2
Lawnmower Member Join Date: August 13, 2002 Posts: 33	Asking for trouble

November 13, 2002, 12:41 AM	#6
Hkmp5sd Senior Member Join Date: December 15, 2001 Location: Winter Haven, Florida Posts: 4,303	Let's make this simple.... You can ask anything. They guy selling the parts is legal. It is not illegal to sell replacement parts for machineguns. You can buy (some) machinegun parts and keep them in your home legally. ATF has ruled that possession of machinegun parts, in this case M16 parts and if in possession of an AR15 and a registered M16, it can cause problems, but that is not an absolute. ATF has ruled that if you possess M16 parts and an AR15 only, you are in possession of an unregistered machinegun and subject to arrest. That is an absolute. __________________ NRA Certified Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, Home Safety, Personal Protection, Range Safety Officer NRA Life Member

November 13, 2002, 01:26 PM	#7
Johnny Guest Moderator in Memoriam Join Date: August 28, 1999 Location: North Texas Posts: 4,123	WITH RESPECT TO ALL THE CAUTIONS POSTED ABOVE - - - - - - Please understand: We don't want any other member to inadvertently get into to trouble by a misunderstanding of the law. Now, in answer to your question. Yes, you CAN purchase all the parts necessary to convert an AR15 to full auto/select fire. No, you can't simply "drop in" those parts without certain modifications to the receiver of the AR. CAN it be done in a home workshop? I understand it can. IF a person--let's stipulate he lives outside the USA - - - sets out to make such a conversion, he should have proper knowledge--It is easy to drill holes in the wrong place, for such a simple chore as mounting sights. You can easily ruin the AR for even semiautomatic use. de la sol, forgive one additional caution - - - Under current law, there is no legal way for the average person to manufacture a new machine gun and then register it. The law doesn't always make sense, but it IS the law, unless and until it is changed, or until you obtain some hard-to-get expemtion, such as becoming a licensed manufacturer. If one wants only one example, it is probably less expensive, and certainly FAR less hassle, to simply shop up an M16 with a properly licensed machine gun dealer, pay the high price, complete the ATF Forms 4, and avoid status as a prospective federal felon. Again--Nothing wrong with asking. The *knowledge* is not at all illegal. Any constructive move towrd putting the knowledge to use - - -That might attract unwelcome attention. Best regards, Johnny

November 13, 2002, 02:53 PM	#9
Johnny Guest Moderator in Memoriam Join Date: August 28, 1999 Location: North Texas Posts: 4,123	We're pretty close to exhausting my store of knowledge - - - - - -but, no, I don't believe there is a legal way to do that. Even a Class III dealer cannot--Takes a special manufacturer license. I'm sure you could go directly to the ATF web site and look up all the various types of licenses, and then find the qualifications for such, and this would then detail what each entitles the licensee to do. As I understand it, in years past, there was an exemption allowing a person to make ONE machine gun for experimental purposes, and to legally register it to himself, without paying the tax or having a mfgrs license. This all changed when the Govt decided there would be NO MORE machine guns licensed for private ownershipo in the USA. Again, this is to the best of my understanding. I am not an attorney, and cannot give legal counsel. Truthfully, though, most licensed attorneys don't know enough about federal firearms law to be of much help. And, what's really worse, most federal agents have little or no understanding of such--except, of course, "NO, IT'S NOT LEGAL FOR YOU TO OWN A MACHINE GUN! Oh, well, yeah, I GUESS you can get some sort of permit. Nope, can't help you." You might want to open another topic here on the Full Auto board at TFL, about "Need Legal Advice About Making Machine Guns," or something of the sort. Bet you get some replies. If you want to research this matter, suggest you go to - - -http://www.nfatoys.com/tsmg/ "The Unofficial Tommy Gun Page." Predictably, they specialize in the Thompson SMG, but there are some useful links oven in the left margin of the home page. There are at least a couple of forums dedicated entirely to various types of full auto firearms, and you might learn something valuable from them. Sorry my knowledge is so limited, but I'd rather confess ignorance than give another member the wrong information and cause confusion, or, worse, legal problems. Best of luch, Johnny

November 12, 2002, 06:01 PM	#3
del la sol Junior Member Join Date: November 12, 2002 Location: Richmond, VA Posts: 6	how so? i can legally own every single one of those parts, since i dont own a ar-15 or keep one in my home... and if i do end up owning one i do not plan at all on doing a conversion as a) i dont want to become a felon b) shooting a semi-auto .223 is expensive enough for me, i simply could not afford to shoot full auto... so whats the harm in asking, no laws being broken if i did follow through with buying them anyways, but i'm not so its only a question which isn't about something illegal anyways... i just find it hard to believe that simply buying and dropping in 300$ worth of parts would actually do it and was wondering if this was BS or the real deal even if it is a bit shady

November 12, 2002, 06:42 PM	#4
Lawnmower Member Join Date: August 13, 2002 Posts: 33	how so? i can legally own every single one of those parts, since i dont own a ar-15 or keep one in my home... You can possess them and if i do end up owning one i do not plan at all on doing a conversion as Illegal, as it implies constructive possession of full auto control parts. Felony with penality of up to 10 years jail and $250,000 fine. shooting a semi-auto .223 is expensive enough for me, i simply could not afford to shoot full auto... so whats the harm in asking, no laws being broken if i did follow through with buying them anyways, but i'm not so its only a question which isn't about something illegal anyways... It like asking on the internet, how do I make crack cocaine. Perfectly sanction question as per the 1st Admendment, but do you really want to ask that? i just find it hard to believe that simply buying and dropping in 300$ worth of parts would actually do it and was wondering if this was BS or the real deal even if it is a bit shady http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/...f_letter52.txt Kenneth Lew

November 13, 2002, 12:20 AM	#5
del la sol Junior Member Join Date: November 12, 2002 Location: Richmond, VA Posts: 6	hmmm let me think... yes i really want to ask those questions, i thought thats why i asked... why, do you make it a habit to go around on forums posting questions that you DO NOT want answered? sounds like a waste of time to me... and it is not like asking about how to make crack cocaine, its not legal to own cocaine... i understand that some could consider it "asking for trouble" but its not, is the ATF going to come to my house and arrest me for asking, is someone that answers going to be arrested for telling me? wheres the trouble? if anyone is looking for trouble(which he is not) it would be the guy selling the parts... by saying i'm asking for trouble you are implying that i plan on doing something illegal, which i am not

November 13, 2002, 01:46 PM	#8
del la sol Junior Member Join Date: November 12, 2002 Location: Richmond, VA Posts: 6	Thanks for the info johnny, i dont mind the cautions at all, in fact i appreciate them, i didn't have a problem with the things kenneth pointed out other than none of them went toward answering the question... i had figured there was probably some machine work involved as there is just no way it could be that simple to do, even if the "simple" route was illegal... so you cannot for example buy a semi-auto ar-15 and convert it to full or select fire and then re-register it was a machine gun and pay the taxes and everything? what if you were a class III dealer? because i could have sworn i read about someone doing this that was a shooting range owner

November 13, 2002, 03:48 PM	#10
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,831	I'm no expert on the law, but it's my understanding that the only way you can get a full auto firearm is to purchase an existing and complete gun. As for the AR itself, bolts are the same regardless of whether it is full or semi. The bolt carrier is what is it different. Also different is the lower receiver (civilian receivers will not accept military auto sears. However, some non-mil-spec auto sears have been designed to fit into civilian receivers) and the parts of the fire control group. Be warned though, do everything legally through a licensed Class III dealer and you won't worry about your tennis game or making Bubba happy. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

November 13, 2002, 07:12 PM	#11
Hkmp5sd Senior Member Join Date: December 15, 2001 Location: Winter Haven, Florida Posts: 4,303	To manufacture a new machinegun, you would have to acquire a federal manufacturer's license from ATF which costs $1000 per year. Then you have to find some government or law enforcement agency that wants you to make a machinegun for them for demonstration purposes. You then fill out the appropriate ATF forms and receive permission from ATF to manufacture the machinegun. Once you go out of business, the firearm must be transfered to another dealer. If you get a normal Class III dealers license, also $1000 per year, you can add to your inventory pre-'86 machineguns and dealer samples by merely doing the paperwork. If you wish to acquire post-'86 dealer samples, you must get the letter of request for demostration by some government or LE agency just like a manufacturer would. When you leave business, you must transfer all post-'86 samples to another dealer. The easiest and in the long run cheapest way to acquire a machinegun is to find a Class III dealer, do the ATF paperwork, wait for everything to be approved and take your gun home. __________________ NRA Certified Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, Home Safety, Personal Protection, Range Safety Officer NRA Life Member

November 21, 2002, 01:46 PM	#12
Jake 98c/11b Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 1999 Posts: 471	I am not quite sure about that last part, as I understand it a manufacturer does not need a demo letter to make anything, nor does he have to request permission from the ATF. A (properly licensed) manufacturer can make anything allowed by his license and he must notify ATF within 24 hours of doing so. A dealer must have letterhead requesting a demo to get a post 86 sample but a manufacturer does not need anything to create. One manufacturer made a machine pisol just to test the effectiveness of his compensators, I don't think it would be practical to get letterhead for that kind of T&E.

March 19, 2011, 11:35 AM	#13
STevEMan Junior Member Join Date: March 19, 2011 Posts: 1	Q? on top of this if one was able to legally acquire an m16 and it was registered, would it be legal to change parts such as flat top upper receiver and or a different barrel/hand guard? if its even possible since i am not very familiar with that of a fully automatic gun and the differences between an m16 and an ar 15?

March 19, 2011, 04:46 PM	#15
Ridge_Runner_5 Senior Member Join Date: February 8, 2008 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 1,925	Steveman, the lower receiver is the machine gun. You can put whatever upper, whatever caliber you want on it and it will still be legal. But yeah, this thread is almost 8 and a half years old

March 19, 2011, 11:41 PM	#16
medalguy Senior Member Join Date: August 31, 2009 Location: New Mexico Posts: 1,033	Where do we send the birthday card???

March 21, 2011, 08:04 AM	#17
Skans Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2008 Posts: 11,132	The answer to the OP's initial question is: No. Don't bother asking me why, I'm not going to instruct someone on how to make an illegal machinegun. But, I do think it is important for folks to know that what the OP has been given some bad or incomplete information. Also, what others have said about owning those parts and an AR can get you in trouble with the BATFE.

March 21, 2011, 09:15 AM	#18
Johnny Guest Moderator in Memoriam Join Date: August 28, 1999 Location: North Texas Posts: 4,123	Dead thread Not only was the original question asked some 8-1/2 years ago, member l,del la sol, who opened it, hasn't even been back on TFL since the following day. The topic was adequately covered at the time, and might should have been closed. If anyone wants to cover NEW ground, feel free to start a new thread. This one's closed. Johnny

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