Setting the shoulders back for the first time.

[Pond, James Pond]

Help me check my method and avoid a silly mistake.

So I have cleaned my .308 cases and the next stage for me would normally be simply decapping and resizing with the full-length die.

From there I would trim, chamfer and prime ready for the next batch of loads.

As I understand it, to set the shoulders back I only need to slip a 0.5mm feeler gauge under the base of the case and operate the press as before.

My problem is this. I cannot do this without removing the decapping pin as the feeler will interfere with the pin as it passes through the flash hole and primer cup. I'd rather not have to do that every time I prep cases. Another way?

Am I missing something? (Rhetorical question)
What am I missing? (Actual question)

[steve4102]

Yeas, there is another way, the way the press and dies were designed.

Forget the feeler gauge and adjust the die for "Bump" by screwing it in and out of the press the desired amount.

[Pond, James Pond]

How?!

I mean my full-length resizing doe is set by screwing it into the press, with the ram up, until it touches the shell holder and then a smidge more. So once that die hits the shell-holder that case cannot go any further into the die.

I don't see how I can get it to bump the shoulder any further.

[Bucksnort1]

If you re-size without the feeler gauge, can you still chamber and close the bolt? If you can, I don't see the need to go a smidge more.

I saw a loader on You Tube tackle this with .308 cases. He was unable to close the bolt on some cases so he screwed down his sizing die a smidge beyond recommendation. This corrected his problem.

I had the bolt not closing problem with my 300 Weatherby. After re-sizing per instructions, I sat in my office, watched America's football team (that would be the Dallas Cowboys) and physically chambered every round (with no powder or primers). I had two piles of cases, "go" and "no go."

[Jim243]

Another way?

You could just use the chamber of your rifle to test the set back or you get a gauge made to insure the case has the correct shoulder set back.

I have been using these gauges for years to check that my dies are set correctly. I have one for each of the major rifle calibers that I reload.

All you have to do is turn your die down till the case fits in the gauge flush with the top.



Jim

So once that die hits the shell-holder that case cannot go any further into the die

Use a file or a grinder and take off an additional 0.050 off the top of the shell holder.

If you can not get your die down enough because you ran out of threads (happens with the dillon presses and lee dies) you could use one of these.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/225...ProductFinding

[steve4102]

How?!

I mean my full-length resizing doe is set by screwing it into the press, with the ram up, until it touches the shell holder and then a smidge more. So once that die hits the shell-holder that case cannot go any further into the die.

I don't see how I can get it to bump the shoulder any further.

Your "smidge" is not enough, give it another "smidge or two until you have your desired bump.

Some die manufactures recommend as much as a 1/2 turn past shell holder contact. That's is a damn big "Smidge".

[jdscholer]

It is possible that your shoulder is not the problem. Could be the case body, which you could check by marking the sized case, chambering it, and checking the contact areas.

I mention this because I just recently encountered the situation with a custom chamber, and after milling .005" off the top of my shell holder still had the problem. Small base die fixed things for me. and I went back to using an unmodified shell holder. jd

[Bart B.]

James, I think you may have been mesmerized by F. Guffey's championing of feeler gauges use in resizing cases. Feeler gauges are not needed to do what you want to do. Go back and read this thread that explained all this stuff:

https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=547244

First off, you need to measure your fired case headspace (distance from case head to shoulder reference) then again after that case is full length sized and compare the measurements. The difference is how much the fired case shoulder's set back. Use an RCBS Precision Mic or Hornady LNL gauge to do that.

Secondly, depending on what one believes is best, what they comprehend and are able to measure, there's several ways a given full length sizing die will be set in the press to full length size cases. An overview of each follows:

* Following the die's installation and setup instructions. . . . This method ensures the resized case will fit an industry standard chamber it was fired in; 99.9% of the time. More often than not, case life will be short as the sized case has too much slop in the chamber and firing, then resizing, then firing again stretches the case metal too much. It work hardens and will start to crack about 2/10ths inch (5mm) up from the case head.

* Using a gauge with a chamber similar to the rifle's chamber to see how a fired case fits it. . . . . Again, the same as above, it indicates the sized case should fit an industry standard chamber. But it rarely is the same size as that of the rifle. Case life may well be short for the same reasons stated above.

* Using the rifle's chamber to see how the sized case fits. . . . Same as the above two, but could be worse. If the die sets the shoulder back further shortening case headspace to less than industry specs, case stretching and eventual cracking will happen sooner. Case life can be as little as only 2 resizing and shooting cycles before the case cracks.

* Minimal shoulder setback evidenced by careful and accurate measurement of case headspace; before and after resizing. . . . Two major benefits; long case life (several dozen is normal), best accuracy (minimal case head out of round conditions). The sizing die stops a few thousandths short of touching the shell holder when sizing a fired case.

Minimal full length sizing has proved best for decades. Start with the die backed up 1/4th turn from shellholder contact when setting it in the press. Then resize one fired case at a time turning the die 1/10th" (2.5mm) about its circumference measuring case headspace each time. Note: Case headspace after sizing may be greater than before sizing; normal when starting this technique. Do this again and again with that same case until its headspace is close to that of its original fired dimension. That much of a turn moves the die about .002" (.05mm) down each time. Repeat this with more cases; each one sized down setting its shoulder back another .002" each time. When the sized case has its shoulder set back .002" (.05mm) from its fired position, that's where that die needs to be locked at. Minimal sizing will happen and the cases will fit the chamber perfectly with the proper amount of clearance for easy loading, long case life and best accuracy. It doesn't matter what the actual case headspace dimension is; as long as the fired case shoulder's set back a couple thousandths and no more.

You can do what's shown in post #35 in the following thread for comparing fired case headspace to that of a resized one:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...=544432&page=2

[F. Guffey]

As I understand it, to set the shoulders back I only need to slip a 0.5mm feeler gauge under the base of the case and operate the press as before.

You have confused everyone but me, math does that. .4mm is equal to 0.01968503 or close to .020". Problem, there is no shell holder that will allow a reloader to place a feeler gage that large between the shell holder deck and case head. the other area of confusion, shimming the case off the deck of the shell holders allows the reloader to size cases for short chambers.

Then there is the "BIG AND", and shimming the case head off the deck of the shell holder increases the presses ability to overcome the cases ability to resist sizing. It is beyond comprehension but shimming the case head off the deck of the shell holder has the same effect as a small base die.

My experience: The maximum shim I can get between the case head and deck of the shell holder is .012" for a RCBS shell holder and .015"+ for a Lee. When cutting chambers with a reamer use cases for short chambers to determine "How close I am to finishing", then of course, I verify.

Verify? With a head space gage that does not exist.

Then there is bump, again, that sounds like a accident. I can not bump the shoulder without bumping? the case body and bumping? the neck. the neck, shoulder and case body are attached with junctures. All of my dies are one piece. It does not have to be that way, reloadrs can purchases dies in pieces, they can purchase neck sizing dies, then there is body dies, there are bump dies etc. etc.. And there is confusion. I could have been using body bump the shoulder back dies for ever, I just never found it necessary.

Sizing a case, it starts with determining the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face. That is something reloadrs can not do. That leaves fire forming. Chamber a round, pull the trigger and then eject the fired case, instant gratification. The reloader has become a fire former.

After fire forming the case the reloader must learn to measure the length of the case. tools are available, most should be able to make the tools. When measuring the case the case is to be measured from the shoulder to the head of the case. For the 308 W the 'MEASURED FROM' is a .400" round hole circle called datum to the case head.

I suggest reloaders measure the length of the case before firing and again after firing. Measuring before and again after allows the reloader to understand the effect the chamber had on the case when fired. And still there are those that believe I am talking about the length of the case from the end of the neck to the case head. I am talking about off setting the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face with the case when measured from the shoulder to the case head. Back to knowing the length of the chamber before firing and cases that have been fired in trashy old chambers, Or as members on reloading forums like to say: "Cases that were fired in rifles with chambers that do not belong to you".

My favorite cases are cases that are long from the shoulder to the case head, I prefer cases that are .010" longer from the shoulder to the case head than new, over the counter, factory new in the box ammo. OR? Military loaded unfired, still in the can or fiber box ammo. Among my other favorite ammo is military fired, especially those mean ol' cases that have been fired in machineguns. I am the only one that measures before sizing, if that case is going to whip my press I want 'A HEADS UP'.

Whip my press? I have case forming dies, I have small base dies, I have dies that are mistakes. Dies that are mistakes will keep a reloader busy, sizing a case with a die that is a mistake is like sizing cases that have been fired in large chambers. A die that is a mistake could be called a very small base die.

keep a reloader busy

Pulling stuck cases.

If a reloader could figure the length of the chamber the reloader could adjust the die to the shell holder by adjusting it to, or off and or below contact. Again, I size 280 Remington cases to 30/06 by adjusting the die off the shell holder .014" for a 30/06 chamber that is long from the shoulder to the bolt face. I know, there is nothing wrong with the chamber when it comes to case head protrusion or unsupported case head. The case head protrusion .025" less than the Mauser 98, Most case head protrusions for the Mauser 98 is .110+ case head clearance between the case head and bolt face.

F. Guffey

[F. Guffey]

First off, you need to measure your fired case headspace

\

Again, the case does not have head space.

F. Guffey

[Bart B.]

More stuff on measuring and comparing case headspace and bumping/setting fired case shoulders back:

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...all-base-dies/

Note that small base dies reduce body diameters a bit more than standard ones. That's their purpose. Whether or not they can set shoulders back a little more is irrelavent. I don't think you need one.

[Pond, James Pond]

I have already made a gauge to use as a means of measuring the case to the shoulder. I will use that to measure before and after resizing.

I'll just have a go, with the die turned out from the shell-holder and see what happens.

[Bart B.]

Good. You're on your way to great things with your reloads.

Your rifle chamber's headspace is about .0010" to .0015" greater than fired case headspace. Easy for reloader's to measure on a case that was a normal, maximum but safe load.

[steve4102]

Turn the die down to the shell holder +plus+ as far as your can without breaking the press.

If that does not get you enough bump for your chamber (NOT A GAUGE), your chamber, then trim some material off the top of the shell holder.

[F. Guffey]

I'll just have a go, with the die turned out from the shell-holder and see what happens

"Have a go at it", I would suggest you measure the length of the case from the shoulder to the head of the case before you

see what happens

I have already made a gauge to use as a means of measuring the case to the shoulder

You will not believe how proud I am you made the effort, any reloader that has the shop skills to drill a perpendicular hole has the ability to make a gage, the tuff part is understanding the tool. I have plates that measure bolt sizes, wire diameters, drill indexes, it is almost impossible to miss me when it comes to 'measuring from' as in datums.

F. Guffey

[F. Guffey]

Note that small base dies reduce body diameters a bit more than standard ones. That's their purpose. Whether or not they can set shoulders back a little more is irrelavent. I don't think you need one.

Again, a bit more? I do not have a bit gage, I do not have a gage that measures tensions so I use pounds. I am going to make a wild guess what comes next, the punch bowl and the violin case. And we both know there is nothing about that example that is measured in thousandths and or millimeters.

F. Guffey

[mehavey]

Again, the case does not have head space.

And again, yes a case does have a headspace dimension. It's from the case base to the point on the shoulder having a 0.400" diameter (for a 308Win). It should be a "couple" of thousandths smaller that the chamber's "headspace" dimensions [bolt face to same 0.400" shoulder diameter point].

That said....

1. Get a Case Headspace Gauge Set if you are going to try setting the case to some dimension that's just a few thousandths smaller than the actual rifle's chamber.

2. Failing that, just full-length resize by running the die down to meet the ram/shellholder -- plus a nominal ⅛ turn to ensure "cam-over" feel.

3. Don't fool with feeler gauges at this point. Either set the die each session IAW a case dimension that "just re-chambers" (as measured by trial & error until reaching that point), or go full-length.

.

[F. Guffey]

And again, yes a case does have a headspace dimension.

And the Internet is full of: everything having head space and everything is a head space gage.

What am I missing? (Actual question)

First answer:

Forget the feeler gauge and adjust the die for "Bump" by screwing it in and out of the press the desired amount.

and then:

How?!

I mean my full-length resizing doe is set by screwing it into the press, with the ram up, until it touches the shell holder and then a smidge more. So once that die hits the shell-holder that case cannot go any further into the die.

I

I like the "HOW?!"

We has a member call SAAMI, the case drawings listed by SAAMI does not have a head space symbol and we have a member calling them to inform them they omitted it? the case never had head space, not until manufactureres starting manufacturers started selling comparators. Comparators do not draw the attention 'head space gages' do, SO? They started calling their comparators head space gages. At the time there were as few as 3 reloaders on the reloading forums that knew the difference between a comparator and head space gage, then there was me, I am the fan of transfers and standards, and verifying, I am the fan of verifying.

F. Guffey

[F. Guffey]

Mehavey, I know, I type too fast for you.

So once that die hits the shell-holder that case cannot go any further into the die.

I don't see how I can get it to bump the shoulder any further.

Maybe you are one of those speed readers that read too fast. James ask "HOW?!" The die is contacting the shell holder When the die contacts the shell holder that is it. I use the feeler gage to determine if the case whipped my press. I know, some use light, I had the opportunity to purchase a light gage, I glanced through the instructions and passed it up. I settled on a Pratt & Whitney electronic gage, it measured .000005", I removed the electronics and installed a dial indicator on the stylist, I turned the gage into a 35 pound height gage.

I do not know what press James is using, I do not know what lube he is using, I use a no-name lube, I also use RCBS 2 lube, I have cases that bog down my presses with RCBS 2. I have cases that are not fit for sizing.

I have cases that will not fit a shell holder, I have a gasket cutting ball peen hammer for cases that will not fit a shell holder. Why doesn't a case fit a shell holder after reloading? The case fit the shell holder the last time it was reloaded but will not fit after firing

If my shell holder contacts the bottom of the die the case has been sized, then there is that other problem, getting the case out of the die.

F. Guffey

[603Country]

Great argument going on. I went back to the start of this and I never did see where the OP explained why he wanted to bump the shoulder back more than the die was already doing. Did I miss that?

If he wants to shrink the case more, and screwing the FL die in a bit more doesn't solve the problem, just do what someone suggested and get small base dies.

[Pond, James Pond]

I went back to the start of this and I never did see where the OP explained why he wanted to bump the shoulder back more than the die was already doing. Did I miss that?

Simply because previous threads had implied that pushing the shoulders back, just a bit, was good for case life and shot-to-shot consistency.

I have some good loads so far and I'd like to maximise them. Also, I use Norma cases and all my loads have been developed with them.

Getting new Norma cases, over here, is quite hard unless I buy off-the-shelf cartridges which have gone up a lot recently (25%), so I also want to make my current meagre stock of Norma brass last as long as I can.

In a nutshell, I reload, so may as well get the most from it!
(within reason)

[mehavey]

When the die contacts the shell holder that is it.

No.

Only if the die contacts the shell holder -- even though the press has slightly
sprung away from the initial "no-stress" contact point -- then that is it.

The slight "cam over" feel attained by screwing the die that nominal ⅛ turn
past initial no-stress contact ensures the the die makes contact -- even under
stress.

Then the die does its full length job.


.

[mehavey]

Getting new Norma cases, over here, is quite hard ...

James, please get the Hornaday Headspace Gauge Set. Then you will be able to
accurately, quickly -- and repeatedly -- set the shoulder back just enough to reliably
chamber during each reloading session.

[1100 tac]

One way you can get a very close measurement of your rifles head space, is to seat a primer in a full length resized empty case, then measure the oal of the case.

Chamber the empty case in your rifle and fire it. When you eject the case you
will see the primer protruding, measure the oal again, (over the fired primer) the difference between the two measurements will be the headspace for that case, not as exact as it could be, but it might do until you can do something else. Kind of gives you a starting place for adjusting the die.

Me,, I would just full length resize. Until I got the correct tools to measure everything.

Oh, another way is to fire the same case 3 times, partially full length sizing each time and set your shoulder back using that case.

To partial full length size, just back the die out about 1/16" or 1.5 mm.

Use a starting load. and check all loaded rounds for chambering effort.

Good luck.

[Bart B.]

James,

http://s860.photobucket.com/user/jep...ent-1.jpg.html

Putting one of those labels on your die's lock ring helps make very small adjustments. Here's what the die looks like with that label on it.



1100 tac,

The amount that primer backs out of a case is called "head clearance." It's the space between the case head and bolt face when the round fires. Chamber headspace is the dimension from the bolt face to the chamber shoulder's reference diameter; .400" diameter for the .308.

I've never had a primed .308 case's primer back out of any amount when fired; did it dozens of times measuring case shoulder setback. Firing pin spring's are too strong. Even firing primed cases with a bullet seated but no powder inside; all had normal primer position with its head a few thousandths below case head. Handgun primed cases usually do back out when fired.

.308 Win. cases with more than a 10% reduced load usually end up with their primer backed out. That happens because the case is driven hard into the chamber shoulder by firing pin impact setting it back a few to several thousandths. There's not enough peak pressure to expand the rear half of the case back until its head stops against the bolt face.