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Old April 26, 2013, 08:09 AM   #26
AK103K
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Call of Duty and the others have added to things somewhat, but this has been a pretty common thing all along, even back in the days when you "learned" everything from books and magazines.

Its also not just limited to the young and uninformed. Ive run into more than my share of "combat vets" who had no idea as to what they were talking about. In a couple of cases, I let my then 7 and 8 year old sons show them how to "really" shoot a SMG.

With that said, Im 58, and Im a big fan, and at times, a big hater of the first person shooters, and weve had pretty much every one of the "better" games, since they first showed up. While they are just a game, they can also have their place as a quasi simulator, if you have the right bunch of people, and use them in that capacity. Most just run around "running and gunning" and base their skills on "kills/points", regardless of "deaths". Not the best way to "learn", or base your skills on, but I suppose its just the nature of things.

Me, when I play alone, which anymore is mostly what I do, Im one of the dreaded and vile "campers" (apparently, "ambush" and "bushwhack", are unknown concepts in the land of the gamers ). I usually find a spot, fire a couple up, and then move on to another spot, of course, leaving some kind of "goodie" behind when I go. Obviously I have no skills, since I wont come out and "fight like a man", and my higher than average kill to death ratios dont really mean anything. It seems its more important to have 20 kills, even if you die 30 times, as long as you die over and over, like a man.


Oh, and if you really want to get them PO'd, run a large caliber belt fed with FMJ's (the games dont seem to understand AP either), and just shoot through the walls from the other side as you go by, in all the likely hiding places.

And if youre a little bored, and in a room, or other similar place, dont go anywhere after the first time they come in, just stay put and move around a little. They ALWAYS come back, and you can kill them over and over, and it gets easier each time, as they get madder and madder every time you kill them. Then when you get tired of that, just run off, and leave them a little present for the next time. Usually by then, they come back with friends. Nothing like a couple of two or three kills on a bouncing betty or claymore to sweeten the pot and rage.
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Old April 26, 2013, 08:20 AM   #27
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Sounds a lot like my tactics, but I typically play as a designated rifleman with my friends, shoot and move, never staying in one spot for long, all the while frustrating my opponents because they can't find me to take their revenge.

Your style of play is not exactly "camping" but more about common sense and tactical thinking. Tactics > Reflexes any day IMHO.

back on topic, one of my co-workers has agreed to take him out to the range for some quality time. I don't have any ammo for my rifles so he's going to bring a small .22lr that he has had stashed away that I didn't even know he had. He's got a few others to include a Mosin M91/30 and some other larger caliber firearms that should be a nice wake up call to the difference between reality and what movies/games portray.

He's a good guy, though he's a little more blunt than I am at times on this topic
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Old April 26, 2013, 09:37 AM   #28
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After watching my son clear all the Nazis off the Arnhem bridge with a "liberated" G43 "sniper rifle", I got kind of bored. At first it was a thing of beauty to see, later...not so much.

Admittedly this was quite a few years ago, and I hope they have improved the reality since, but in the end, its just a game.

My son-in-law got a bit upset at me when I was able to outshoot him in a deer hunter game, including 200yd shots with a crossbow....

And yes, I have run into those who only know guns from video games. It's a REAL eye opener to them when they meet a DEagle in real life!
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Old April 26, 2013, 09:48 AM   #29
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Unfortunately, preferring video games over actual experience is not limited to pre-teens.

My godson and his friends were of college age, last time his dad and I invited them out to the range with us. They declined, as they preferred to play COD rather than shoot an M1 Garand, AR15, scoped .30-06, .44 magnum revolver, etc. Ironically, some of the guns they liked in the game were going to actually be fired at the range, yet they passed.

Of course, it would have been interesting to see whether they could hit the bullseye with the AR15 from a static position in real life, as compared to nailing targets with an M4 while at a full run in the video game.

This phenomenon is also not limited to shooting.

The same group of guys got into some of the martial arts games, but had absolutely no interest in trying kenpo or aikido in real life.

Getting them out onto a boat, or even up in an airplane, is not guaranteed, either.

In large part, getting out and actually doing stuff seems to be more an over-40 thing. Yes, there are younger guys who are very active, but I am appalled by the number of young couch potatoes I see.

But they can shoot like Leatham on a videogame, or snowboard like Shaun White, or drive like Schumacher... So why go through the agony of having to work hard, and go through the initial period of incompetence and mediocrity, in the real world.
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Old April 26, 2013, 10:39 AM   #30
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My kids learned in reverse. They had been shooting the real stuff a number of years before they ever saw a video game that was shooting related.

The funny part is, even at a very young age, they were quick to pick up on the "wrong" things in the games (as well as TV and movies), that many adults never did. Movies or games, we always discussed these things as they came up, and they were lucky enough to have access to a number of the guns encountered in both, to know what the real things are like, and what to really expect from them.

My kids are in their late 20's now, and while things are a little different these days, game wise, then they were when they were small, I dont see their kids having a dissimilar experience here. They will handle and learn to shoot, as their dads did, long before they get to play a game doing so. Im sure they'll get to play too, and I hope I still have the reflexes to be an opponent and/or team member.

It suxs getting old and you start loosing your edge, and its embarrassing when an 8 year old British kid on your team calls you a wanker for not keeping up in the game. Ill bet I can still out shoot him with the real stuff though, and flopping down on the ground is a breeze. Its the getting up part thats getting to be a bit of a challenge.
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Old April 26, 2013, 10:49 AM   #31
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Unfortunately, preferring video games over actual experience is not limited to pre-teens.
Well, that's cause they are in the real world.

Fellas, you'll never get through to any of them if you continue to hold on to the view that video games, and particularly on-line multiplayer games are not real. They very certainly are a real experience because the player is interacting with real people in a controlled environment.

AK103K's description of his experiences are real because both he and his victims experienced real emotions, fun, challenge, frustration, satisfaction, there is nothing fake about this.

These kids will resist you if you approach it from the idea that they are living in a fake world cause they are not.

They don't have the reality issue, you do.

Once you understand this, then you won't come across as offering a better experience, or suggesting a real experience over a false one. You will come across as offering a new experience that doesn't threaten the ones they currently favor.

Not better or real, but new and different. Break them in in an environment where a lot is going on, where there is alot of activity. They are used to a high level of stimulation, games pump big sounds and visuals at a furious rate, they'll get bored easy if you go to a quiet range. Get them to an indoor range first.

There is alot to look at, a lot going on, and the bangs and booms have real feeling right there in your insides.

But you will never ever get thru to them if you continue to think that on-line gaming isn't real. It is real, it just has no permanence beyond it's effect on the individual and his wallet.
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Old April 26, 2013, 10:57 AM   #32
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Well said lcpiper, couldn't have said it better myself. Paintball might be a good way to get engaged in the shooting sport, while not quite the same, it does have that competative aspect to it that can later be applied to competitive shooting perhaps?

Personally I'd love to get into competition shooting, if it were not for a limited disposable income at this moment, I'd be at the range every week throwing lead down range
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Old April 26, 2013, 11:00 AM   #33
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lcpiper, it may be a "real" experience, but it is completely unreal with regard to the laws of physics.

So, if we want them to just have a good old time, then there is no problem.

If we actually want them to understand how firearms (or cars, motorcycles, airplanes, boats...) work, and how to operate them effectively, then no, games are not real.

If I took my godson out to a diamond or double diamond run, because he kicked butt at Wii skiing or snowboarding, I would probably get him hurt pretty badly. Ideally, he'd realize he should not try that. I get the impression some gamers actually think they would be able to go out and handle the mountain.

On a more scary note, some of them may think that because they were awesome at some of the James Bond games, then they should be able to hop onto a Triumph Daytona or similar as their first motorcycle...

Full disclosure: I'm a gamer, myself. However, my sword handling and archery skills are nothing at all like those of my Skyrim assassin's; I can't climb walls like Sam Fisher; I am pretty sure I can't jog around non-stop for half an hour at a time, and expect to hit anything with a rifle while doing so, though I could in Ghost Recon or COD.

So, I appreciate the entertainment value of video games. I even appreciate that there can be problem-solving skills development from some games. But the games are NOT real.
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Old April 26, 2013, 11:14 AM   #34
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No one plays a video game cause the game is real in the sense you suggest. They do play them for the very real experience that I was talking about.

Somehow I think you missed the very specific point I was trying to drive home.

You will not get anywhere telling them their games aren't real because they are. Offer them something new and different without threatening what they currently enjoy the most and you have a chance to get them off the couch.
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Old April 26, 2013, 11:15 AM   #35
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lcpiper, the point of this thread was people playing games, and therefor thinking they actually knew how the game weapons worked in reality.

Your argument has nothing to do with the OP's discussion.

Edit: Didn't mean to sound that harsh. Your argument is valid, in terms of trying to get them off the couch; but that is a separate issue (even if I did allude to it)

Second Edit: Then again, maybe you are saying you don't normally see this tendency among gamers (thinking they know more than they do).

I see it fairly often, sometimes on TFL, typically in the DEagle fanbois. (This does not include people who actually own and shoot the big magnum autos, like 44AMP, but rather the guys who ask what we think about the DEagle for CCW...)

Last edited by MLeake; April 26, 2013 at 11:26 AM.
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Old April 26, 2013, 11:30 AM   #36
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I started playing video games when I was 4 and airsoft when I was 12 or 13.

I had an awesome replica MP5 that could fire 800 RPM, perfectly to scale, all that stuff. My friends and I would dress in MILSIM gear and run around 40 acres of woods trying to be tactical. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't.

We had more than one debate on the merits of an M16 vs. an AK. We had plenty of caliber war discussions. I thought a .50 BMG was the most accurate thing in the world. I thought there was some kind of "Class 3 license" that everybody had to get if they wanted an automatic weapon and explosives were a no-no.

We didn't know a whole lot back then but it sure got me interested.
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Old April 26, 2013, 01:08 PM   #37
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Edit: Didn't mean to sound that harsh. Your argument is valid, in terms of trying to get them off the couch; but that is a separate issue (even if I did allude to it)
No problem, and your right. I was just following the discussion down the path. We all know there are people like the guy the OP encountered.
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Old April 26, 2013, 01:12 PM   #38
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As aggravating as some of the COD groupies(double fish burger) are, I know that a couple of my Fraternity Brothers have become shooting buddies because of Call of Duty.

And they've purchased thier own guns, and not all of them are "tactical" either.

I agree with Tom, it isn't a 100% wash, and some good comes of it.

A friend of mine was shooting Pop's M1A at the range, and after struggling to keep it on the paper at 300 yards, he exclaimed that it "was way harder in real life." Appreciative chuckles were had all around.
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Old April 26, 2013, 02:30 PM   #39
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It truly makes you appreciate the amount of training and talent real operatives have when they are able to maintain their groupings within the size of a quarter (Marksmen to be precise).

There are some upros to having folks like this I suppose, if it gets them into the shooting world and sparks a desire to learn more about the shooting sport then by all means I say play away. It's the educating one self that I'd really like these people to really take to heart, we have enough people on our side of the fence that hurts the image of gun owners, don't need anymore than what we already have.
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Old April 26, 2013, 04:31 PM   #40
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To me, it makes you appreciate how damn good those programmers are to develop the games with all of the possible parameters. That said, as MLeake said, it is not reality - but if it helps to get a few into the real world of firearms, then fine. But I have also seen a few at clubs/ranges thinking they were going to do the COD thing for real. They learned quickly.......
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Old April 26, 2013, 06:10 PM   #41
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Oh I've seen those types too, my favorite ones are the ones that try to use their handguns all "gangster" like and can't hit anything (They shortly there after get their rear ends chewed out by the range master)
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Old April 26, 2013, 06:27 PM   #42
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And that, IMO, is one of the bigger problems - some of these guys actually think they know what they are doing, all based on games, TV, and movies - but mostly on games.

I've seen a few... in some cases, I may try to help them out a bit; in at least one, I opted to leave rather quickly, as they seemed likely to be both extremely unsafe and extremely unlikely to accept any inputs. (Bunch of 20-something guys showed up at a state owned range in the woods, and started rapid firing, badly, with various "tactical" rifles, all while acting like... well, you get the idea.)
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Old April 26, 2013, 09:29 PM   #43
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And they've purchased thier own guns, and not all of them are "tactical" either.
You're right. The video games/television might get them in the door, but sometimes we can have a positive influence from there out.

The day I convinced a kid to get an Enfield and a bunch of ammo instead of an AK-47 for his first gun was the day I won at life.
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Old April 28, 2013, 05:07 PM   #44
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I've met more of these than Id care to admit, it's always amusing when I tell them I owned an ACR and sold it to buy a pistol (Colt 1911) because I got bored with it. Their eyes usually almost pop out of their head

None of them grasp the concept of a weapon system's reliability, every time they pull their Xbox trigger it goes bang, but "damage" is something they're experts on.

Some of them listen, some don't, the ones I can set straight I do the others don't take me long to figure out and walk away from them.
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Old April 29, 2013, 08:30 AM   #45
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This is reminding me a lot of the Guitar Hero craze from a few years ago. I remember knowing lots of people into that game, even my little brother, who had no real world knowledge of playing a guitar. You see, I've played in bands my entire life and have a generally professional knowledge of the instrument. The entire concept of Guitar Hero is lost on people like me. It is not in any way like playing a real guitar. I did try and play it. Boy, did I suck at it!

That's what a lot of the older generation are going through right now. They've grown up shooting real guns, and the first person shooter is their Guitar Hero.

Those of you that are able should try and take the kids out shooting. I know it's a little hard right now with the price of ammunition, but it will get better soon. I didn't get to shoot that much as a kid and my parents were against guns so I didn't have the opportunity that many of the very lucky children and teenagers around you do. I would have accepted any and all offers for range time then, and I would now!
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Old April 29, 2013, 12:41 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Servo
The day I convinced a kid to get an Enfield and a bunch of ammo instead of an AK-47 for his first gun was the day I won at life.
The day a friend of mine called asking my opinion of Marlin lever rifles versuses Winchester lever rifles, after previously wanting to know where he could find an AUG, made me dance about with glee.

I feel that Gun Culture 2.0, with thier innate famialiarity with social media, a somewhat skeptical look at the main stream media and the Government, and a somewhat libertarian bent will be the force that wages the most effective fight in the war for gun rights.
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Old April 29, 2013, 08:00 PM   #47
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I remember being a wee little lad and watching Kurt Russell in Tombstone, and couldn't wait until I was old enough to buy a Colt Single Action Army. I've settled for a Uberti, but hey it was still a boyhood dream come true.

We all got our interest from somewhere...
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Old April 30, 2013, 01:49 AM   #48
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I knew a guy who would continually spout his knowledge of firearms, and just weapons in general, all of which information he learnt from video games.
One day he confessed to me that he had never shot a real gun in his whole life, but he continued to enlighten me with his great knowledge, which I would set him straight on each time he brought it up.

I also new another younger guy a fair few years back who said he would like to get shot to know what it felt like.
On games like Call of Duty you are capable of being shot with a 308 and continue to act as normal.
Upon explanation of what it would really be like to be shot with even a 22lr, when it came time to administer this shooting he wasn't too keen.

Another guy didn't believe me when I informed him the a 3006 could shoot through the interior walls of a house with ease.
And I've heard that the Barrett M107/M82 is the most accurate sniper rifle in the world.

Although all this being said I met a soldier who had been to Afghanistan twice who though the AK47 fire the same round as their 7.62 light machine gun.
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Old April 30, 2013, 01:53 AM   #49
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And to add I really dislike the Call of Duty games, they are just to fast paced and to inaccurate for me to like.
Some other FPS games are ok though like Rainbow Six Vegas2.

But I much prefer real time strategy games though, always played them as a kid and have actually gotten into them a bit again now I'm older.
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Old April 30, 2013, 09:05 AM   #50
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I've heard all sorts of outrageous "facts" from CoD and Battlefield (the game) experts. Had one who swore to the moon and back that the FN FAL was a sniper rifle of some sort, and that the Cheytac 200 was the most powerful sniper rifle in the world.

Had another claim that the US was the only ones who had a .50 caliber weapons, I believe the 12.7x108mm round used in the Russian DShK and Kord HMG's is comparable to our .50 BMG rounds and serve in a similar capacity.

I've never heard of anyone wanting to be shot though to know what it feels like, that's a first, also I'm a bit surprised that an infantryman would think that the AK47 fired the same round as their M240's. Guess it goes to show that you don't necessarily need to know the technical aspects of your tools in order to effectively operate it.

A little off topic here, but if you like RTS games trg42, if you have not tried Company of Heroes, I highly recommend it. A great, if not the best, WWII RTS game out there IMHO.

Back on topic, I just hope that even with all the ridiculousness that comes from these games and the typical "gun experts" that sprout from them, we'll see more and more getting into the shooting sport and from there, becoming more educated on the topic. Of course we'll have the bad apples here and there, but so long as we have folks willing to correct these wayward sheep, we'll slowly add more ammunition (pun intended) to our side of the fight to keep our rights.
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