Something to think about

Hal · March 23, 2001, 06:42 AM

Nope. This isn't misplaced. I've been following the MN threads and noticed that the same form of ridicule directed at the MN's is just exactly like the ridicule HCI and VPC, as well as several media sphinters use against CCW holders.

AR-10 · March 23, 2001, 07:50 AM

I agree. Hopefully the frenzy is peaking. I have no desire to veiw a bunch of "Mullet" photos with accompanied descriptions.

There is some irony involved thats got me biting my tongue so often I have developed blood blisters.

TheBluesMan · March 23, 2001, 12:23 PM

I had to do a little lookin' around in General Discussion to find that MN stands for Mall Ninja and not Minnesota.

No. Rich doesn't let me out of my L&P cage very often.

You have a very good point RAE, and the suggestion is appreciated. Hopefully everyone who reads it will give it proper consideration...

George Hill · March 23, 2001, 01:05 PM

The State or the mental patient? Which one are you talking about?

Hal · March 23, 2001, 05:13 PM

I rethought this through. Never mind.
Anything further I have to say would just strike a match.

[Edited by RAE on 03-23-2001 at 05:43 PM]

Long Path · March 26, 2001, 01:36 PM

Excellent post.

This is an issue that has been discussed, let me assure you of that.

We've gotten from kind of funny to downright mean, and the one-upsmanship is getting beyond silly.

At this time, we're opting to just ride it through and see it die down on its own. I would like to see the Membership recognize of their own accord that this is getting to be a bit hypocritical. Moderators and Administrators cannot, of course, administrate taste nor logic.

Perhaps the occasional polite and friendly email to someone that you see posting in such a manner would be effective? The Firing Line is, above all else, run by its Members.

Best Regards,
Long Path/Matt

Jorah Lavin · April 12, 2001, 07:27 PM

Whenever I mow for a few hours I get time to think... and lately the grass has needed a lot of mowing.

One of the things I've considered is what social purpose the Mall Ninja threads might be serving, and if I had a little more time and energy, I think I could make a case that what we are seeing here is a group trying to define what "we" should look like.

At the bank I lately worked for, you dressed a certain way.
Most groups have a "look" that tends to be maintained; at the range I shoot at, showing up in a suit and tie seems to get you stares (I've shot a few rounds on the way home from work).

I think that a subset of TFL is going through a tribal rite to determine what "TFL Cool" looks like.

I agree that things may be getting out of hand.

(I wonder if the people posting most energetically on this topic realize what they are revealing about themselves; at the bare minimum, they use the exact same arguments that I've had anti-gunners use against me... suspicion of paranoia or underlying aggression because of the fact that I chose to go armed.)

I've also been thinking about a sort of "anti-PC-political-correctness" that I've seen on the list, where people who express an opinion outside of a fairly narrow slice of the social or political spectrum are pretty quickly slapped down.

On most lists, the slapping and return fights are all that remain, but TFL has some smart folks on it, and I have hope that sanity will return, even when it comes to discussing Mall Ninjas.

**Rich Lucibella** · April 12, 2001, 07:38 PM

TFL's Class Act Award for April 2001.

I couldn't agree more. I just wish I had been articulate enough to craft your statement myself.
Thanks-
Rich

Jorah Lavin · April 12, 2001, 07:45 PM

Rich, I was just heading back to re-read and probably edit that post, wondering if I was stepping on too many toes, but after your kind comment, I think I'll leave it as-is.

Thanks.

**Mike Irwin** · April 13, 2001, 12:45 AM

Jorah,

Certainly one of the most thought-provoking messages I've read in a long time...

I submit, though, that there may well be other reasons for the "Mall Ninja Bashing" that has been going on (and in which I have participated heavily...)

I think the most obvious one could well be a sense of extreme nervousness over an image that some fear could become the defacto "definition" of a gunowner in the minds of anti-gunners.

It could well be an attempt by some (consciously or unconsciously) to distance themselves from this image. To use an extreme example: Some of the most virulently anti-Jewish Nazis were themselves Jews, or of Jewish extraction. It's a sort of "if I point out how bad they are, maybe no one will notice me" syndrom.

As for me, I'll bust on anyone or anything, myself included. Remind me to tell you some of my store of "fat, white redneck" jokes sometime. Some of them are real doozies.

Jorah Lavin · April 13, 2001, 07:03 AM

Mike Irwin said:

Quote:

I think the most obvious one could well be a sense of extreme nervousness over an image that some fear could become the de facto "definition" of a gunowner in the minds of anti-gunners.

It could well be an attempt by some (consciously or unconsciously) to distance themselves from this image.

Agreed, and I think this is a natural and understandable thing, even though it "ain't always pretty."

As you pointed out, people may well be nervous about being linked to a bad stereotype... the wanna-be SWAT guy, the weekend warrior... these images don't exactly help us make the case that gun owners are also professionals/skilled tradesmen/sensible people. Trevor used this phrase recently: "Whether it be one's writing or one's manner and appearance: Style is substance." Coming from a marketing background these last few years, I've realized that in most situations, style really is substance; people take what they see of you literally at face value. TFL rises above the crowd of other boards and lists partly based on the writing skill of the membership; people make carefully reasoned points and mostly know that sheer shouting will never convince anyone of anything but that the shouter is an uncouth lout. I was really impressed with the overall tone (for instance) of the thread in General titled something like "Why I love gun rights but hate handguns..." http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...threadid=63297

Some people attacked this woman for not being pro-gun, but the overall reaction was very balanced, and people supported the idea that it is the individual's decision how they would defend themselves. TFL members understand that we are on display to the world... and want to look like the intelligent and reasonable people we claim to be. In a similar way, when we "go forth into the world," we may not want to spook the herd too much.

To expand a bit on what I said earlier...

Being "uncool" is really uncool... as the high-school dweeb in the plaid high-water pants and no skill in team sports, I remember what it is like to be labeled that way; it hurts, and people will do a lot to avoid that embarrassment.

Mr. Irwin then said:

Quote:

As for me, I'll bust on anyone or anything, myself included.

I'm there with ya, dude. I'm a neurotic, introspective, klutzy guy with unpopular opinions; if I took myself too seriously, I'd be a hurting unit. FWIW, I thought the original Mall Ninja thread... where was it? on GlockTalk? was one of the funniest damned things I've ever read. I literally had tears running down my face.

I'm also susceptible to peer pressure... after reading a few hundred posts here on TFL about the Mall Ninja, I've pretty much stopped carrying the black nylon pouches all over my belt... the Leatherman, the Gerber folder, and the third-and-fourth magazines of reloads for the Kimber are now hiding in my briefcase, unless I'm actually dressed in jeans and heading out into the woods or the wilds of Wally-World... and I don't even know any TFLers in my town!

I think that a lot of the energy in the M.N. threads comes from people poking fun at themselves... I know I have bought some "G.I. Joe" equipment at times... I've got the old nun-chucks from the late seventies... when you know you've made the mistakes yourself, and gotten past them, it probably will strike you as even funnier when you see some earnest person running around doing the same **** you did once.

There is also the angle of "appropriate for the situation." I'll bet there are times when every bit of M.N. equipment would be appropriate to have/carry/use, but part of maturity is being able to judge situations and make good choices about how you are going to act, look, talk.

Hmmmmm... I think I've got more to think about today when I go out to mow the side yard!

Thanks for the chance to vent a little, guys.

-Jorah

PS: I just noticed the "four letter word" editing feature... "TFL; the Family Safe Forum..."

March 23, 2001, 01:05 PM	#4
George Hill Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 14, 1998 Location: North Carolina Posts: 11,546	The State or the mental patient? Which one are you talking about? __________________ MAD OGRE

April 12, 2001, 07:27 PM	#7
Jorah Lavin Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 1999 Location: Indian Land, SC USA Posts: 593	I've stopped reading the Mall Ninja theads, but... Whenever I mow for a few hours I get time to think... and lately the grass has needed a lot of mowing. One of the things I've considered is what social purpose the Mall Ninja threads might be serving, and if I had a little more time and energy, I think I could make a case that what we are seeing here is a group trying to define what "we" should look like. At the bank I lately worked for, you dressed a certain way. Most groups have a "look" that tends to be maintained; at the range I shoot at, showing up in a suit and tie seems to get you stares (I've shot a few rounds on the way home from work). I think that a subset of TFL is going through a tribal rite to determine what "TFL Cool" looks like. I agree that things may be getting out of hand. (I wonder if the people posting most energetically on this topic realize what they are revealing about themselves; at the bare minimum, they use the exact same arguments that I've had anti-gunners use against me... suspicion of paranoia or underlying aggression because of the fact that I chose to go armed.) I've also been thinking about a sort of "anti-PC-political-correctness" that I've seen on the list, where people who express an opinion outside of a fairly narrow slice of the social or political spectrum are pretty quickly slapped down. On most lists, the slapping and return fights are all that remain, but TFL has some smart folks on it, and I have hope that sanity will return, even when it comes to discussing Mall Ninjas.

April 12, 2001, 07:38 PM	#8
Rich Lucibella Staff Join Date: October 6, 1998 Location: South Florida Posts: 10,229	And to Jorah.... TFL's Class Act Award for April 2001. I couldn't agree more. I just wish I had been articulate enough to craft your statement myself. Thanks- Rich __________________ S.W.A.T. Magazine Weapons, Training and Tactics for the Real World Join us at TFL or at AR15.com or on Facebook

April 12, 2001, 07:45 PM	#9
Jorah Lavin Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 1999 Location: Indian Land, SC USA Posts: 593	Thanks Rich, I was just heading back to re-read and probably edit that post, wondering if I was stepping on too many toes, but after your kind comment, I think I'll leave it as-is. Thanks.

April 13, 2001, 12:45 AM	#10
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	Jorah, Certainly one of the most thought-provoking messages I've read in a long time... I submit, though, that there may well be other reasons for the "Mall Ninja Bashing" that has been going on (and in which I have participated heavily...) I think the most obvious one could well be a sense of extreme nervousness over an image that some fear could become the defacto "definition" of a gunowner in the minds of anti-gunners. It could well be an attempt by some (consciously or unconsciously) to distance themselves from this image. To use an extreme example: Some of the most virulently anti-Jewish Nazis were themselves Jews, or of Jewish extraction. It's a sort of "if I point out how bad they are, maybe no one will notice me" syndrom. As for me, I'll bust on anyone or anything, myself included. Remind me to tell you some of my store of "fat, white redneck" jokes sometime. Some of them are real doozies. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

March 23, 2001, 06:42 AM	#1
Hal Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 1998 Location: Ohio USA Posts: 8,563	Nope. This isn't misplaced. I've been following the MN threads and noticed that the same form of ridicule directed at the MN's is just exactly like the ridicule HCI and VPC, as well as several media sphinters use against CCW holders.

March 23, 2001, 07:50 AM	#2
AR-10 Senior Member Join Date: January 10, 2001 Location: Iowa Posts: 1,182	I agree. Hopefully the frenzy is peaking. I have no desire to veiw a bunch of "Mullet" photos with accompanied descriptions. There is some irony involved thats got me biting my tongue so often I have developed blood blisters.

March 23, 2001, 12:23 PM	#3
TheBluesMan Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 15, 1999 Location: Ohio Posts: 7,558	I had to do a little lookin' around in General Discussion to find that MN stands for Mall Ninja and not Minnesota. No. Rich doesn't let me out of my L&P cage very often. You have a very good point RAE, and the suggestion is appreciated. Hopefully everyone who reads it will give it proper consideration...

March 23, 2001, 05:13 PM	#5
Hal Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 1998 Location: Ohio USA Posts: 8,563	I rethought this through. Never mind. Anything further I have to say would just strike a match. [Edited by RAE on 03-23-2001 at 05:43 PM]

March 26, 2001, 01:36 PM	#6
Long Path Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 1999 Location: N. Texas Posts: 5,899	Excellent post. This is an issue that has been discussed, let me assure you of that. We've gotten from kind of funny to downright mean, and the one-upsmanship is getting beyond silly. At this time, we're opting to just ride it through and see it die down on its own. I would like to see the Membership recognize of their own accord that this is getting to be a bit hypocritical. Moderators and Administrators cannot, of course, administrate taste nor logic. Perhaps the occasional polite and friendly email to someone that you see posting in such a manner would be effective? The Firing Line is, above all else, run by its Members. Best Regards, Long Path/Matt