Problems with overall case length.

Fox1 · February 25, 2010, 10:50 PM

I started reloading on an old "C" shaped press that was given to me and using new Hornady New Dimension dies.

One thing I noticed was that my C.O.L.'s were all over the place. No matter how much I would turn my seating stem down "just a touch" or back up, I seemed to be chasing my C.O.L. up then down. Finally I just set it "close" and measured every single cartridge. Without adjusting anything, I would get lengths that were high then low in consecutive cartridges.

I finally decided that the "C" shaped press was the culprit because it didn't have a structural portion on the front to stabilize it.

I just purchased a Hornady L-N-L single stage press and I'm slowing getting bushings for each of my dies. Tonight I loaded some .223 REM on this press for the first time and, beforehand, I had to get my .223 seating die all set up again for the new press. I just pressed bullets into empty, unprimed cases to get the C.O.L. adjusted and then when I got there I pulled the bullets and started loading for real.

Because these are my first .223 REM loads on this press, I was checking quite a few of the cartridges as I finished them. Wouldn't you know it, the C.O.L.'s are varying on this one too.

The manual calls for a C.O.L. of 2.200"
Shortest one was 1.850"
Longest one was 2.205"

Difference of 0.355"

I'm not crimping.

Is this normal and I'm being too picky or do I have something adjusted incorrectly?

I don't so much care about these that I loaded tonight but when I load .308 WIN I tend to get really picky. I was hoping to get +/- 0.001" but I'm wondering if I'm expecting too much.

Bullet94 · February 25, 2010, 11:00 PM

When measuring from the base of the case to the tip of the bullet you will get variations in OAL due to the bullets being different lengths. If you measure to the ogive the measurement will be more consistent.

Quote:

Problems with overall case length.

I think you mean overall cartridge length unless you mean just the case.

shakes · February 26, 2010, 12:07 AM

I was having the same problem when i was shooting cheap FMJ's. What kind of bullets are you using? Since i started using sierra they have been much closer, almost perfect. Seems some of the cheaper bullets are shaped differently, or more change from bullet to bullet.

Jim243 · February 26, 2010, 12:49 AM

Your OAL should NOT be changing from one loaded case to the next. Who's (mfg) dies are you using?? Do you have the locking ring for the die locked tight? Are these new dies or old used ones, have the threads become stripped? The die should be solid in the press without moving up or down or side to side. Are you using the correct shell case holder for the caliber you are using?

I know a lot of questions. Just take it one step at a time and double check everything.

Jim

mkl · February 26, 2010, 02:14 AM

Take ten of the bullets (not complete cartridges, just the bullet) and measure their OAL.

You probably got variations in bullet length.

If the variations in bullet length (say .010") are about the same as the variation you are getting in cartridge length (say .012") then you are okay. In this example, your actual seating variance would be .002", and not the .012" you measured. Unless you are into really serious benchrest shooting, it is doubtful that you would be able to notice a seating variance as high as .005 inches down range on your target.

Your seating die uses the bullet ogive, not the bullet tip to push the bullet into the case, and it is the ogive that contacts the leads in your rifle when you fire the cartridge. As long as the OAL as measured from the bullet ogive to the cartridge base is reasonably consistent, the OAL of the total cartridge (bullet tip to cartridge base) is unimportant.

Sinclair and others make a simple tool to allow you to measure OAL using the bullet ogive as the contact point instead of the bullet tip.

Fox1 · February 26, 2010, 10:08 AM

Bullet94 - yes, that was supposed to read "cartridge" length. Fumbling my terms while posting.

shakes and Jim243 -
Dies are new Hornady New Dimension.
The first press was an OLD Texan press, just upgraded to a new Hornady L-N-L single stage.
Shell holders are new Hornady.
Locking ring is tight.
Threads are peachy.
Die doesn't budge.
(These are all true for both the old and new presses.)
Bullets are Winchester and Remington, 55 gr. FMJ-BT

Others here have commented that it's the ogive that touches the seating stem. I hadn't thought of that but it does make sense.

Does that mean C.O.L. is mostly measured to ensure the cartridges will fit in the magazine?

If the ogive is staying steady and the variance is actually in the tip of the bullet itself, will accuracy be affected?

I have some Hornady, Barnes and Sierra 168 gr. Match bullets that I loaded recently and I do recall that their C.O.L.'s varied a bit, but not as much as the .224's that I loaded last night.

shakes · February 26, 2010, 11:54 AM

Yeah those are the ones i was having trouble with too, when i first started loading cheap rounds to throw downrange. I believe the bullets are not consistent. The dies go off the ogive not the tip like others have stated. So if the bullets is mis shaped at all it will be different OAL. When i was loading those for the first time i was adjusting the die everytime and getting really frustrated.

Can someone link the ogive tool, ill search for it to. I will pick one of these up today too.

mkl · February 26, 2010, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Can someone link the ogive tool, ill search for it to. I will pick one of these up today too.

http://www.sinclairintl.com/product/5582/s

This is one of several sold by Sinclair. All of them are listed under "Bullet Comparators" in Sinclair's on-line catalog.

Quote:

If the ogive is staying steady and the variance is actually in the tip of the bullet itself, will accuracy be affected?

See the last sentence of my third paragraph above.

Inspector3711 · February 26, 2010, 01:01 PM

Quote:

If the ogive is staying steady and the variance is actually in the tip of the bullet itself, will accuracy be affected?

Most likely so. I bought a bunch of Winchester FMJ's for my .223 bolt action a couple of years ago. The rifle can shoot 3/4" groups. The best I can manage with the Winchester bullets is 1" and thats if I don't get a flyer thats and inch or two off.

It's still plenty fine ammo for plinkin though. The overall length is all over the place on these reloads even though the ogive is very consistent.

flashhole · February 27, 2010, 08:59 AM

You can make a tool like the one mkl put in his response. I have several that I have made from hex nuts. I make one for each cartridge I load for and each one has two holes in it. The smaller hole rests on the ogive so my datum for OAL measurements is constant. I use this when determining bullet seating depth. The larger hole allows the neck to slip through and rests on the case shoulder. This is useful for determining your guns chamber size for proper headspacing so you aren't over stressing your brass. You can easily control how far back you bump the shoulder when taking this measurement. They work with a standard caliper and are easy to use.

February 25, 2010, 10:50 PM	#1
Fox1 Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2008 Posts: 300	Problems with overall case length. I started reloading on an old "C" shaped press that was given to me and using new Hornady New Dimension dies. One thing I noticed was that my C.O.L.'s were all over the place. No matter how much I would turn my seating stem down "just a touch" or back up, I seemed to be chasing my C.O.L. up then down. Finally I just set it "close" and measured every single cartridge. Without adjusting anything, I would get lengths that were high then low in consecutive cartridges. I finally decided that the "C" shaped press was the culprit because it didn't have a structural portion on the front to stabilize it. I just purchased a Hornady L-N-L single stage press and I'm slowing getting bushings for each of my dies. Tonight I loaded some .223 REM on this press for the first time and, beforehand, I had to get my .223 seating die all set up again for the new press. I just pressed bullets into empty, unprimed cases to get the C.O.L. adjusted and then when I got there I pulled the bullets and started loading for real. Because these are my first .223 REM loads on this press, I was checking quite a few of the cartridges as I finished them. Wouldn't you know it, the C.O.L.'s are varying on this one too. The manual calls for a C.O.L. of 2.200" Shortest one was 1.850" Longest one was 2.205" Difference of 0.355" I'm not crimping. Is this normal and I'm being too picky or do I have something adjusted incorrectly? I don't so much care about these that I loaded tonight but when I load .308 WIN I tend to get really picky. I was hoping to get +/- 0.001" but I'm wondering if I'm expecting too much.

February 26, 2010, 11:54 AM	#7
shakes Member Join Date: February 13, 2010 Location: wisconsin Posts: 31	Bullets Yeah those are the ones i was having trouble with too, when i first started loading cheap rounds to throw downrange. I believe the bullets are not consistent. The dies go off the ogive not the tip like others have stated. So if the bullets is mis shaped at all it will be different OAL. When i was loading those for the first time i was adjusting the die everytime and getting really frustrated. Can someone link the ogive tool, ill search for it to. I will pick one of these up today too.

February 27, 2010, 08:59 AM	#10
flashhole Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2005 Location: Owego, NY Posts: 2,000	You can make a tool like the one mkl put in his response. I have several that I have made from hex nuts. I make one for each cartridge I load for and each one has two holes in it. The smaller hole rests on the ogive so my datum for OAL measurements is constant. I use this when determining bullet seating depth. The larger hole allows the neck to slip through and rests on the case shoulder. This is useful for determining your guns chamber size for proper headspacing so you aren't over stressing your brass. You can easily control how far back you bump the shoulder when taking this measurement. They work with a standard caliper and are easy to use. __________________ ,,, stupidity comes to some people very easily. 8/22/2017 my wife in a discussion about Liberals. Are you ready for civil war?

February 26, 2010, 12:07 AM	#3
shakes Member Join Date: February 13, 2010 Location: wisconsin Posts: 31	I was having the same problem when i was shooting cheap FMJ's. What kind of bullets are you using? Since i started using sierra they have been much closer, almost perfect. Seems some of the cheaper bullets are shaped differently, or more change from bullet to bullet.

February 26, 2010, 12:49 AM	#4
Jim243 Senior Member Join Date: January 5, 2009 Location: Just off Route 66 Posts: 5,067	Your OAL should NOT be changing from one loaded case to the next. Who's (mfg) dies are you using?? Do you have the locking ring for the die locked tight? Are these new dies or old used ones, have the threads become stripped? The die should be solid in the press without moving up or down or side to side. Are you using the correct shell case holder for the caliber you are using? I know a lot of questions. Just take it one step at a time and double check everything. Jim

February 26, 2010, 02:14 AM	#5
mkl Senior Member Join Date: April 25, 2008 Location: DFW area, Texas Posts: 494	Take ten of the bullets (not complete cartridges, just the bullet) and measure their OAL. You probably got variations in bullet length. If the variations in bullet length (say .010") are about the same as the variation you are getting in cartridge length (say .012") then you are okay. In this example, your actual seating variance would be .002", and not the .012" you measured. Unless you are into really serious benchrest shooting, it is doubtful that you would be able to notice a seating variance as high as .005 inches down range on your target. Your seating die uses the bullet ogive, not the bullet tip to push the bullet into the case, and it is the ogive that contacts the leads in your rifle when you fire the cartridge. As long as the OAL as measured from the bullet ogive to the cartridge base is reasonably consistent, the OAL of the total cartridge (bullet tip to cartridge base) is unimportant. Sinclair and others make a simple tool to allow you to measure OAL using the bullet ogive as the contact point instead of the bullet tip.

February 26, 2010, 10:08 AM	#6
Fox1 Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2008 Posts: 300	Bullet94 - yes, that was supposed to read "cartridge" length. Fumbling my terms while posting. shakes and Jim243 - Dies are new Hornady New Dimension. The first press was an OLD Texan press, just upgraded to a new Hornady L-N-L single stage. Shell holders are new Hornady. Locking ring is tight. Threads are peachy. Die doesn't budge. (These are all true for both the old and new presses.) Bullets are Winchester and Remington, 55 gr. FMJ-BT Others here have commented that it's the ogive that touches the seating stem. I hadn't thought of that but it does make sense. Does that mean C.O.L. is mostly measured to ensure the cartridges will fit in the magazine? If the ogive is staying steady and the variance is actually in the tip of the bullet itself, will accuracy be affected? I have some Hornady, Barnes and Sierra 168 gr. Match bullets that I loaded recently and I do recall that their C.O.L.'s varied a bit, but not as much as the .224's that I loaded last night.