Meat Damage - Page 2

Lycanthrope · September 7, 2006, 11:39 AM

Yeah, after killing upwards or 40 whitetails with numerous bullets, I've went back to Ballistic Tips behind the shoulder. No meat damage and the deer gets folded immediately. Bonded and total copper bullets are perfectfor larger game, but deer running 100 yards after being shot are no longer acceptable to me.

BrianBM · September 7, 2006, 05:45 PM

" ..... Art's a regular commodian." EXCELLENT! LOL again.

Art Eatman · September 7, 2006, 06:43 PM

Dunno 'bout that. Never had a commode at Hunt Camp.

support_six · September 13, 2006, 03:47 PM

BrianBM, your quest for the optimal "one shot, immediate kill" round is fraught with misconception and danger. This is tantamount to the "one shot stop" discussion on the handgun forums. An immediate kill is not as dependent on the round as the shot placement. If a hunter can't kill a deer with a .223 because of lousy shot placement, a .35 won't be much better. Study the anatomy and practice your marksmanship.

BrianBM · September 13, 2006, 07:38 PM

Mulling over this thread, I do believe I will leave the head shots alone.

This thread's shots, as discussed, have been classic broadside shots. Texas heart shots are a different thread, and will be discussed separately.

What about head-on angles? If a deer is looking at you, straight on, a straight line can directly touch no more then one lung, the heart, or CNS. A bullet that strikes the breastbone might well damage all three, but that's ... fancy. Any bullet into the chest is going to dump a lot of energy farther aft then you'd like, and the gut cavity's going to be a messy, messy clean afterwards. What would be your preferred shot? The centerline of the neck offers windpipe, carotid artery and spine in close proximity, but even a shot low enough on the neck to minimize the risk of blowing the shot and just wounding the animal is still too high for the heart/lungs. I'd still rather shoot directly at the heart, since a slightly off shot will still hit a lung, but what would you do?

BrianBM · September 13, 2006, 07:40 PM

Oughta be a web site somewhere with interesting deer autopsy pictures. Gotta find it.

nico · September 13, 2006, 09:04 PM

I can't speak from personal experience, but given the proximity of the heart and lungs, I would expect a straight-on midline heart shot would also do significant damage to the lungs (think: temporary wound channel).

Maybe someone who's taken such a shot can shed some more light on the topic. I'd be interrested to know too.

Fat White Boy · September 14, 2006, 12:54 AM

A straight on shot through the Heart/Lungs is fatal. What happens ofter the bullet leaves that area? As said previously, know your anatomy. The problem with that shot is that the bullet will probably end up in the guts or going out the anal area. Not good for the meat...

Art Eatman · September 14, 2006, 10:21 AM

nico, I've only had one straight-on shot at a deer facing me. It was at about 450 yards. I center-punched him low in the chest. DRT. It mostly just blew out his heart.

Art

mete · September 14, 2006, 10:54 AM

Straight on ? Once I used 165 Sierras recommended by my friend .I shot a bit higher than intended and lost a bunch of chops - terrible bullet. A too low shot will get into the chest but under the heart -no deer !!

Art Eatman · September 15, 2006, 10:20 AM

mete, the Sierra 150-grain BTs and the 165-grain HPBT will really expand or blow up if driven above around 2,800 muzzle velocity and you hit something inside of 30 or 40 yards. Sorta like small hand grenades. The flat-bases have slightly thicker jackets and don't have the problem.

Art

FirstFreedom · September 15, 2006, 10:47 AM

Brian, not autopsy pics, but reasonably-accurate diagram nonetheless:

http://www.whitetails.com/deer_info/deer_anatomy.cfm

BrianBM · September 15, 2006, 10:28 PM

Thank you. Good anatomical sketch, that.

Looking at the diagrams at the far end of that link, it occurs to me a bullet that's optimal for a shot from either flank or head - on is, by definition, a bullet you wouldn't want to fire at the rear end, the Texas Heart Shot discussed in a nother thread. Deer aren't that big and the lungs and heart aren't more then a couple of inches below the skin. A huge buck might have its' heart eight or nine inches below the skin, but not more, really. The SST or something similar, in either 7mm-08 or .280, is really as much as you'd want, and I'd like mine in 140 gr. This is another good reason to not take stern shots, save, as Long Path was commenting, to stop a wounded animal.

Slowly we learn .... heh heh heh.

Big Ruger · September 15, 2006, 11:06 PM

Broadside- heart-lung shot everytime all the time. Chest cavity makes a nice container for debris too. I have only ever shot one head on. He was nosing after a girlie , and was trotting along alternately sniffing the air, and sniffing the ground. He was coming right at me and I waited till he put his head down and shot him through the back of his fat neck. My bullet entered the back of his neck, penetrated thruogh and into his chest cavity. He dropped like he was poleaxed. I must say it wass the most dramatic kill I have ever made. Usually I get a side shot and they run off a little ways then stumble and fall.

September 7, 2006, 11:39 AM	#26
Lycanthrope Senior Member Join Date: October 1, 2001 Location: PA Posts: 1,752	Yeah, after killing upwards or 40 whitetails with numerous bullets, I've went back to Ballistic Tips behind the shoulder. No meat damage and the deer gets folded immediately. Bonded and total copper bullets are perfectfor larger game, but deer running 100 yards after being shot are no longer acceptable to me.

September 7, 2006, 05:45 PM	#27
BrianBM Senior Member Join Date: May 25, 2006 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 273	" ..... Art's a regular commodian." EXCELLENT! LOL again.

September 7, 2006, 06:43 PM	#28
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	Dunno 'bout that. Never had a commode at Hunt Camp.

September 13, 2006, 03:47 PM	#29
support_six Senior Member Join Date: August 29, 2000 Location: Richland, WA Posts: 678	BrianBM, your quest for the optimal "one shot, immediate kill" round is fraught with misconception and danger. This is tantamount to the "one shot stop" discussion on the handgun forums. An immediate kill is not as dependent on the round as the shot placement. If a hunter can't kill a deer with a .223 because of lousy shot placement, a .35 won't be much better. Study the anatomy and practice your marksmanship.

September 13, 2006, 07:38 PM	#30
BrianBM Senior Member Join Date: May 25, 2006 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 273	Mulling over this thread, I do believe I will leave the head shots alone. This thread's shots, as discussed, have been classic broadside shots. Texas heart shots are a different thread, and will be discussed separately. What about head-on angles? If a deer is looking at you, straight on, a straight line can directly touch no more then one lung, the heart, or CNS. A bullet that strikes the breastbone might well damage all three, but that's ... fancy. Any bullet into the chest is going to dump a lot of energy farther aft then you'd like, and the gut cavity's going to be a messy, messy clean afterwards. What would be your preferred shot? The centerline of the neck offers windpipe, carotid artery and spine in close proximity, but even a shot low enough on the neck to minimize the risk of blowing the shot and just wounding the animal is still too high for the heart/lungs. I'd still rather shoot directly at the heart, since a slightly off shot will still hit a lung, but what would you do?

September 13, 2006, 07:40 PM	#31
BrianBM Senior Member Join Date: May 25, 2006 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 273	Oughta be a web site somewhere with interesting deer autopsy pictures. Gotta find it.

September 13, 2006, 09:04 PM	#32
nico Member Join Date: May 19, 2004 Location: Laurel, MD Posts: 75	I can't speak from personal experience, but given the proximity of the heart and lungs, I would expect a straight-on midline heart shot would also do significant damage to the lungs (think: temporary wound channel). Maybe someone who's taken such a shot can shed some more light on the topic. I'd be interrested to know too.

September 14, 2006, 12:54 AM	#33
Fat White Boy Senior Member Join Date: March 18, 2005 Posts: 1,276	A straight on shot through the Heart/Lungs is fatal. What happens ofter the bullet leaves that area? As said previously, know your anatomy. The problem with that shot is that the bullet will probably end up in the guts or going out the anal area. Not good for the meat...

September 14, 2006, 10:21 AM	#34
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	nico, I've only had one straight-on shot at a deer facing me. It was at about 450 yards. I center-punched him low in the chest. DRT. It mostly just blew out his heart. Art

September 14, 2006, 10:54 AM	#35
mete Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2004 Location: NY State Posts: 6,575	Straight on ? Once I used 165 Sierras recommended by my friend .I shot a bit higher than intended and lost a bunch of chops - terrible bullet. A too low shot will get into the chest but under the heart -no deer !!

September 15, 2006, 10:20 AM	#36
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	mete, the Sierra 150-grain BTs and the 165-grain HPBT will really expand or blow up if driven above around 2,800 muzzle velocity and you hit something inside of 30 or 40 yards. Sorta like small hand grenades. The flat-bases have slightly thicker jackets and don't have the problem. Art

September 15, 2006, 10:47 AM	#37
FirstFreedom Junior member Join Date: May 31, 2004 Location: The Toll Road State, U.S.A. Posts: 12,451	Brian, not autopsy pics, but reasonably-accurate diagram nonetheless: http://www.whitetails.com/deer_info/deer_anatomy.cfm

September 15, 2006, 10:28 PM	#38
BrianBM Senior Member Join Date: May 25, 2006 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 273	Thank you. Good anatomical sketch, that. Looking at the diagrams at the far end of that link, it occurs to me a bullet that's optimal for a shot from either flank or head - on is, by definition, a bullet you wouldn't want to fire at the rear end, the Texas Heart Shot discussed in a nother thread. Deer aren't that big and the lungs and heart aren't more then a couple of inches below the skin. A huge buck might have its' heart eight or nine inches below the skin, but not more, really. The SST or something similar, in either 7mm-08 or .280, is really as much as you'd want, and I'd like mine in 140 gr. This is another good reason to not take stern shots, save, as Long Path was commenting, to stop a wounded animal. Slowly we learn .... heh heh heh.

September 15, 2006, 11:06 PM	#39
Big Ruger Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2004 Location: Nebraska Posts: 302	Broadside- heart-lung shot everytime all the time. Chest cavity makes a nice container for debris too. I have only ever shot one head on. He was nosing after a girlie , and was trotting along alternately sniffing the air, and sniffing the ground. He was coming right at me and I waited till he put his head down and shot him through the back of his fat neck. My bullet entered the back of his neck, penetrated thruogh and into his chest cavity. He dropped like he was poleaxed. I must say it wass the most dramatic kill I have ever made. Usually I get a side shot and they run off a little ways then stumble and fall.