Locating bullet/powder info

642 · February 2, 2011, 11:10 AM

I am unable to locate "exact" bullet information.i.e., 38 cal, 148 gr BN (lead), 9mm 125 gr RN (lead). I am unable to match both the bullet weight(gr) and/or the bullet abbreviation. Is the bullet weight and abbreviation have to be exact? If not, how much leeway do you safely have? I've checked HP-38 and Winchester-231 powder charts. Your comments would be appreciated.

k4swb · February 2, 2011, 12:41 PM

I wish I could help. Before the internet, I would sit down with loading manuals, try finding something close to what I had, start low and go from there. Since the internet I've been told this isn't safe. I must use the exact published recipes or I'll get into all kind of unsafe situations.
Now I mostly shoot that store bought ammo from Walmart.

noylj · February 2, 2011, 01:43 PM

There are 4 types of bullets:
1) Lead: cast, swaged, and thin plated
2) Jacketed: Jacketed and Bonded (thick plating) with lead core.
4) Frangible: may be the same as jacketed or in a category of their very own. Very light weight for caliber.
3) Copper: Solid copper.
You may use data for any jacketed bullet of any style of the same weight or heavier. You must, however, start with the starting load and work up and start with the longest COL your gun/barrel/magazine can handle
You may use lead bullet date for any cast, swaged, or thin plated lead bullet of the same or heavier weight. You must, however, start with the starting load and work up and start with the longest COL your gun/barrel/magazine can handle.
The only bullets you must be careful with and keep at the starting load or lower (650-750fps) are the swaged L-HBWC. You can easily blow the bullet apart and have the skirt left in the target.
See the Hornady manuals. They make it clear that all of their jacketed bullets of a given weight use the same data, but the minimum recommended COL changes as the bullet style changes.
You are never going to get reloading data for your specific bullet and powder and case and primer unless you use the reloading manuals to make your purchases.
This is why there is a starting load and also why I compile all the loading data I have from manuals and magazine so I can always start with the lowest starting load and work up.
Problem today seems to be that new reloaders want their cake and eat it too, and don't want to work up loads. They expect all guns to be the same and what works in your gun will work in their gun.
From Ramshot manual:
SPECIAL NOTE ON CARTRIDGE OVERALL LENGTH “COL”
It is important to note that the SAAMI “COL” values are for the firearms and ammunition manufacturers' industry and must be seen as a
guideline only.
The individual reloader is free to adjust this dimension to suit their particular firearm-component-weapon combination.
This parameter is determined by various dimensions such as
1) magazine length (space),
2) freebore-lead dimensions of the barrel,
3) ogive or profile of the projectile and
4) position of cannelure or crimp groove.

642 · February 3, 2011, 02:23 PM

Thanks noylj for your comments.You answered some for me but let me elaborate. I think I wasn't real clear. The lead bullets I have on hand are designated by the mfgr. as BN for the 38 cal and RN for the 9mm respectively. I'm assuming that RN is for Round Nose, but unable to match BN with anything. The mfgr. is no longer in business. I won't start loading anything until I 'm positive of what I have and not afraid to work up to a good load, just being cautious.

zxcvbob · February 3, 2011, 02:42 PM

"Button nosed".

sourdough44 · February 3, 2011, 03:02 PM

The main thing with a lead bullet is weight. Look at data for the next heavier bullet if yours isn't listed. You can interpolate within reason,especially with modest loadings.

642 · February 3, 2011, 03:20 PM

Do I understand correct that with lead bullets the type it is, i.e., button nose, wad cutter, etc. doesn't matter, just the weight? There are an awfull lot of different bullet types.

zxcvbob · February 3, 2011, 04:36 PM

The weight and the seating depth make the most difference. Lead vs. jacketed also makes a difference.

You seat those wadcutters deep in the case, so they take up most of the room that would normally be available for powder -- the pressure can be a lot higher with those than you think.

noylj · February 3, 2011, 09:31 PM

I would assume the 148gn BN bullets are button-nose wadcutters. If they have a hollowbase, they are ONLY for very light target loads.
The point is that most bullets of a given type (except for the pure wadcutter bullets) have about the same length of bullet bearing on the rifling (the exceptions tend to be those with even less bearing surface).
Pressure is affected by powder charge (less weight=less pressure), weight of bullet (heavier bullet=higher pressure, type of bullet (jacketed will generally produce higher pressure), and COL (shorter COL=higher pressure).
The thing with the pure wadcutters is that they really eat up internal volume. The manuals referenced COL will indicate if the wadcutters are flush with the case mouth or if they leave 1/8" of so to stick into the cyliner's throats.
Before you even think about how much powder to load, consult as many loading manuals as you can.
Set your dies using two inert "dummy" cases. Use them for establishing the COL that is as long as it can be and still fit your magazine and will feed and chamber in your gun.
The only concern you should have about COL is if your COL is SHORTER than the manuals' COLs. The manuals tend to reference either the shortest recommended COL or simply the COL they used. As I said, this doesn't mean that this is the best COL, just that is a minimum COL that, if you drop below it, will necessitate and 5-10% drop in the STARTING load. Always start with the starting load.
Life is a lot simpler if you check a BUNCH of manuals and determine the lightest starting load and you begin there. Loading manuals are only able to tell you what loads were safe in their guns or equipment and then they list a starting load that should be safe in any gun in fine condition and loaded properly. They tell you in every manuals to always start with the starting load. That being said, if there is a conflict, I always start with the lowest starting load. Never had any problems then.

9x19
Bullet Weight Powder Weight Velocity Start/Max Power Factor COL Accuracy

L-CFP 121 231/HP38 2.9 963 Start 117
L-RN 121 231/HP38 3.0 1010 Start 122
L-RN 124 231/HP38 3.3 910 Start 113
Lead 124 231/HP38 3.6 Start 0
Speer L-RN 125 231/HP38 3.8 911 Start 114 1.130
Speer L-RN 125 231/HP38 3.9 917 Start 115 1.130
L-CN 125 231/HP38 3.9 1009 Start 126 1.125
SAECO 377 123 231/HP38 4.0 999 poor accuracy 123 1.080
L-RN 124 231/HP38 4.0 1035 Max 128
Plated 124 231/HP38 4.0 Accurate
Speer L-RN 125 231/HP38 4.1 982 Max 123 1.130
L-RN 121 231/HP38 4.1 1148 Max 139
Speer L-RN 125 231/HP38 4.2 995 Max 124 1.130
L-CN 125 231/HP38 4.4 1086 Max 136 1.125
L-CFP 121 231/HP38 4.4 1264 Max 153
L-CFN 124 231/HP38 4.5 1015 Start 126
RCBS 9mm-125-RN 123 231/HP38 4.5 1034 127
Lee 356-125-2R 126 231/HP38 4.5 1052 poor accuracy 133 1.160
L-RN 125 231/HP38 4.6 1104 Start 138
L-RN 125 231/HP38 4.7 1094 Start 137
L-CFN 124 231/HP38 5.0 1135 MaX 141
L-RN 125 231/HP38 5.0 1130 Max 141
Lyman 356402 120 231/HP38 5.0 1195 143
L-RN 125 231/HP38 5.1 1122 Max 140
Lyman 356402 120 231/HP38 5.5 1250 150
L-FP 124 231/HP38 3.6-4.1 Accurate

.38 Spl Wadcutter
Bullet Weight Powder Powder Weight Velocity Start/Max OAL

Hornady L-HBWC 148 231/HP38 2.2 550 Start 1.180
L-WC 148 231/HP38 2.9 686 Start
L-HBWC 148 231/HP38 2.9 752 Start 1.115
L-HBWC 148 231/HP38 3.0 750 Favorite/HBWC Max
Hornady L-HBWC 148 231/HP38 3.0 700 Start 1.165
L-HBWC 148 231/HP38 3.0 749 Start 1.115
Bull-X L-HBWC 148 231/HP38 3.0 681
Rem HBWC 148 231/HP38 3.1 Accurate @ 50yds 1.145
L-DEWC 148 231/HP38 3.1 Favorite HBWC
L-HBWC 148 231/HP38 3.2 801 HBWC Max for M52 1.115
HBWC 148 231/HP38 3.3 804 HBWC Max 1.115
L-WC 148 231/HP38 3.3 770 Max
BBWC 148 231/HP38 3.4 760
Hornady L-HBWC 148 231/HP38 3.5 800 Accurate 1.165
Hornady L-HBWC 148 231/HP38 3.5 800 Max 1.180
Hornady L-HBWC 148 231/HP38 3.5 869 Start 1.160
Hornady L-HBWC 148 231/HP38 3.7 Favorite: M52 w/slide-mounted sight
Hornady L-HBWC 148 231/HP38 4.0 956 HBWC/BBWC Max 1.160
Hornady L-HBWC 148 231/HP38 4.0 956
Hornady L-HBWC 148 231/HP38 4.0 956
BBWC 148 231/HP38 4.1 811 Start 1.295
Hornady L-HBWC 148 231/HP38 4.2 950 Max 1.165
BBWC 148 231/HP38 4.7 926 Max 1.295

642 · February 4, 2011, 08:22 AM

Thank you noylt for all of your information.I am confident that I'll be able to load with more confidence, not to mention safety. Thank you again.

wncchester · February 4, 2011, 01:04 PM

"I am unable to locate "exact" bullet information."

Forget it. ALL loading data is generic by bullet weight and powder type. (And know that book OAL is no more a "law" for you than the book's powder charges. Adjust your OAL so YOUR csrtridges fit and feed reliably in YOUR gun and develop your load at that length.)

All book data was obviously developed in their firearm. Your's is different from their's and there are NO component changes you can make that is as important to the finished product as that. Nor are there any foumulas that we we can use to compensate for anything. The ONLY rule that allows us to load safely is, "Start low and only move up to max unless you get overpressure signs earlier."

February 2, 2011, 11:10 AM	#1
642 Junior Member Join Date: November 17, 2010 Posts: 9	Locating bullet/powder info I am unable to locate "exact" bullet information.i.e., 38 cal, 148 gr BN (lead), 9mm 125 gr RN (lead). I am unable to match both the bullet weight(gr) and/or the bullet abbreviation. Is the bullet weight and abbreviation have to be exact? If not, how much leeway do you safely have? I've checked HP-38 and Winchester-231 powder charts. Your comments would be appreciated.

February 3, 2011, 02:42 PM	#5
zxcvbob Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2007 Location: S.E. Minnesota Posts: 4,720	"Button nosed". __________________ "Everything they do is so dramatic and flamboyant. It just makes me want to set myself on fire!" —Lucille Bluth

February 3, 2011, 04:36 PM	#8
zxcvbob Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2007 Location: S.E. Minnesota Posts: 4,720	The weight and the seating depth make the most difference. Lead vs. jacketed also makes a difference. You seat those wadcutters deep in the case, so they take up most of the room that would normally be available for powder -- the pressure can be a lot higher with those than you think. __________________ "Everything they do is so dramatic and flamboyant. It just makes me want to set myself on fire!" —Lucille Bluth

February 2, 2011, 12:41 PM	#2
k4swb Senior Member Join Date: July 11, 2009 Posts: 389	I wish I could help. Before the internet, I would sit down with loading manuals, try finding something close to what I had, start low and go from there. Since the internet I've been told this isn't safe. I must use the exact published recipes or I'll get into all kind of unsafe situations. Now I mostly shoot that store bought ammo from Walmart.

February 2, 2011, 01:43 PM	#3
noylj Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 2007 Location: Between CA and NM Posts: 858	There are 4 types of bullets: 1) Lead: cast, swaged, and thin plated 2) Jacketed: Jacketed and Bonded (thick plating) with lead core. 4) Frangible: may be the same as jacketed or in a category of their very own. Very light weight for caliber. 3) Copper: Solid copper. You may use data for any jacketed bullet of any style of the same weight or heavier. You must, however, start with the starting load and work up and start with the longest COL your gun/barrel/magazine can handle You may use lead bullet date for any cast, swaged, or thin plated lead bullet of the same or heavier weight. You must, however, start with the starting load and work up and start with the longest COL your gun/barrel/magazine can handle. The only bullets you must be careful with and keep at the starting load or lower (650-750fps) are the swaged L-HBWC. You can easily blow the bullet apart and have the skirt left in the target. See the Hornady manuals. They make it clear that all of their jacketed bullets of a given weight use the same data, but the minimum recommended COL changes as the bullet style changes. You are never going to get reloading data for your specific bullet and powder and case and primer unless you use the reloading manuals to make your purchases. This is why there is a starting load and also why I compile all the loading data I have from manuals and magazine so I can always start with the lowest starting load and work up. Problem today seems to be that new reloaders want their cake and eat it too, and don't want to work up loads. They expect all guns to be the same and what works in your gun will work in their gun. From Ramshot manual: SPECIAL NOTE ON CARTRIDGE OVERALL LENGTH “COL” It is important to note that the SAAMI “COL” values are for the firearms and ammunition manufacturers' industry and must be seen as a guideline only. The individual reloader is free to adjust this dimension to suit their particular firearm-component-weapon combination. This parameter is determined by various dimensions such as 1) magazine length (space), 2) freebore-lead dimensions of the barrel, 3) ogive or profile of the projectile and 4) position of cannelure or crimp groove.

February 3, 2011, 02:23 PM	#4
642 Junior Member Join Date: November 17, 2010 Posts: 9	Thanks noylj for your comments.You answered some for me but let me elaborate. I think I wasn't real clear. The lead bullets I have on hand are designated by the mfgr. as BN for the 38 cal and RN for the 9mm respectively. I'm assuming that RN is for Round Nose, but unable to match BN with anything. The mfgr. is no longer in business. I won't start loading anything until I 'm positive of what I have and not afraid to work up to a good load, just being cautious.

February 3, 2011, 03:02 PM	#6
sourdough44 Senior Member Join Date: October 17, 2007 Location: WI Posts: 621	The main thing with a lead bullet is weight. Look at data for the next heavier bullet if yours isn't listed. You can interpolate within reason,especially with modest loadings.

February 3, 2011, 03:20 PM	#7
642 Junior Member Join Date: November 17, 2010 Posts: 9	Do I understand correct that with lead bullets the type it is, i.e., button nose, wad cutter, etc. doesn't matter, just the weight? There are an awfull lot of different bullet types.

February 3, 2011, 09:31 PM	#9
noylj Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 2007 Location: Between CA and NM Posts: 858	I would assume the 148gn BN bullets are button-nose wadcutters. If they have a hollowbase, they are ONLY for very light target loads. The point is that most bullets of a given type (except for the pure wadcutter bullets) have about the same length of bullet bearing on the rifling (the exceptions tend to be those with even less bearing surface). Pressure is affected by powder charge (less weight=less pressure), weight of bullet (heavier bullet=higher pressure, type of bullet (jacketed will generally produce higher pressure), and COL (shorter COL=higher pressure). The thing with the pure wadcutters is that they really eat up internal volume. The manuals referenced COL will indicate if the wadcutters are flush with the case mouth or if they leave 1/8" of so to stick into the cyliner's throats. Before you even think about how much powder to load, consult as many loading manuals as you can. Set your dies using two inert "dummy" cases. Use them for establishing the COL that is as long as it can be and still fit your magazine and will feed and chamber in your gun. The only concern you should have about COL is if your COL is SHORTER than the manuals' COLs. The manuals tend to reference either the shortest recommended COL or simply the COL they used. As I said, this doesn't mean that this is the best COL, just that is a minimum COL that, if you drop below it, will necessitate and 5-10% drop in the STARTING load. Always start with the starting load. Life is a lot simpler if you check a BUNCH of manuals and determine the lightest starting load and you begin there. Loading manuals are only able to tell you what loads were safe in their guns or equipment and then they list a starting load that should be safe in any gun in fine condition and loaded properly. They tell you in every manuals to always start with the starting load. That being said, if there is a conflict, I always start with the lowest starting load. Never had any problems then. 9x19 Bullet Weight Powder Weight Velocity Start/Max Power Factor COL Accuracy L-CFP 121 231/HP38 2.9 963 Start 117 L-RN 121 231/HP38 3.0 1010 Start 122 L-RN 124 231/HP38 3.3 910 Start 113 Lead 124 231/HP38 3.6 Start 0 Speer L-RN 125 231/HP38 3.8 911 Start 114 1.130 Speer L-RN 125 231/HP38 3.9 917 Start 115 1.130 L-CN 125 231/HP38 3.9 1009 Start 126 1.125 SAECO 377 123 231/HP38 4.0 999 poor accuracy 123 1.080 L-RN 124 231/HP38 4.0 1035 Max 128 Plated 124 231/HP38 4.0 Accurate Speer L-RN 125 231/HP38 4.1 982 Max 123 1.130 L-RN 121 231/HP38 4.1 1148 Max 139 Speer L-RN 125 231/HP38 4.2 995 Max 124 1.130 L-CN 125 231/HP38 4.4 1086 Max 136 1.125 L-CFP 121 231/HP38 4.4 1264 Max 153 L-CFN 124 231/HP38 4.5 1015 Start 126 RCBS 9mm-125-RN 123 231/HP38 4.5 1034 127 Lee 356-125-2R 126 231/HP38 4.5 1052 poor accuracy 133 1.160 L-RN 125 231/HP38 4.6 1104 Start 138 L-RN 125 231/HP38 4.7 1094 Start 137 L-CFN 124 231/HP38 5.0 1135 MaX 141 L-RN 125 231/HP38 5.0 1130 Max 141 Lyman 356402 120 231/HP38 5.0 1195 143 L-RN 125 231/HP38 5.1 1122 Max 140 Lyman 356402 120 231/HP38 5.5 1250 150 L-FP 124 231/HP38 3.6-4.1 Accurate .38 Spl Wadcutter Bullet Weight Powder Powder Weight Velocity Start/Max OAL Hornady L-HBWC 148 231/HP38 2.2 550 Start 1.180 L-WC 148 231/HP38 2.9 686 Start L-HBWC 148 231/HP38 2.9 752 Start 1.115 L-HBWC 148 231/HP38 3.0 750 Favorite/HBWC Max Hornady L-HBWC 148 231/HP38 3.0 700 Start 1.165 L-HBWC 148 231/HP38 3.0 749 Start 1.115 Bull-X L-HBWC 148 231/HP38 3.0 681 Rem HBWC 148 231/HP38 3.1 Accurate @ 50yds 1.145 L-DEWC 148 231/HP38 3.1 Favorite HBWC L-HBWC 148 231/HP38 3.2 801 HBWC Max for M52 1.115 HBWC 148 231/HP38 3.3 804 HBWC Max 1.115 L-WC 148 231/HP38 3.3 770 Max BBWC 148 231/HP38 3.4 760 Hornady L-HBWC 148 231/HP38 3.5 800 Accurate 1.165 Hornady L-HBWC 148 231/HP38 3.5 800 Max 1.180 Hornady L-HBWC 148 231/HP38 3.5 869 Start 1.160 Hornady L-HBWC 148 231/HP38 3.7 Favorite: M52 w/slide-mounted sight Hornady L-HBWC 148 231/HP38 4.0 956 HBWC/BBWC Max 1.160 Hornady L-HBWC 148 231/HP38 4.0 956 Hornady L-HBWC 148 231/HP38 4.0 956 BBWC 148 231/HP38 4.1 811 Start 1.295 Hornady L-HBWC 148 231/HP38 4.2 950 Max 1.165 BBWC 148 231/HP38 4.7 926 Max 1.295

February 4, 2011, 08:22 AM	#10
642 Junior Member Join Date: November 17, 2010 Posts: 9	Thank you noylt for all of your information.I am confident that I'll be able to load with more confidence, not to mention safety. Thank you again.

February 4, 2011, 01:04 PM	#11
wncchester Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2002 Posts: 2,832	"I am unable to locate "exact" bullet information." Forget it. ALL loading data is generic by bullet weight and powder type. (And know that book OAL is no more a "law" for you than the book's powder charges. Adjust your OAL so YOUR csrtridges fit and feed reliably in YOUR gun and develop your load at that length.) All book data was obviously developed in their firearm. Your's is different from their's and there are NO component changes you can make that is as important to the finished product as that. Nor are there any foumulas that we we can use to compensate for anything. The ONLY rule that allows us to load safely is, "Start low and only move up to max unless you get overpressure signs earlier."