AR - forward assist or not? - Page 2

**44 AMP** · August 30, 2021, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Next time… try pushing forward on the carrier cut that interfaces with the dust cover.

While this may work to ensure the carrier is all the way forward, it has less leverage than using the forward assist. And, its something you can only do on a cold rifle. I suppose you could do it on a hot rifle, but I'd bet serious cash you'd only do it ONCE....

As mentioned previously, the original AR15 and M16 did not have forward assists. Also note that none of the larger AR designs (AR 10 etc) do not have forward assists.

The forward assist was the govt's "cure" for the way they mishandled the M16's Vietnam deployment. Troops were not properly trained, a great deal of misinformation was spread by NCOs who were also not properly trained, the gun went into combat a full six months before cleaning kits were widely available for it, and, on top of that certain folks (may they burn in hell) changed rifle and ammo specs in an attempt to discredit the M16 and allow the Army to get rid of it. That plan not only failed, it got a lot of guys killed.

I was personally told by one Sgt that the M16 "didn't need cleaning" and similar stories abound. Maintaining service in Vietnam's muddy and at times very dusty environment gets complicated especially when you don't have a cleaning rod that fits the barrel. No matter how willing you are, you simply cannot punch the bore of a .22 caliber rifle when all you have (or can get) is a .30 caliber rod from your M60. Add in the issues created by the change from an IMR to a ball powder type and you get the results history shows us.

ALL these issues were fixed, over time, to a sufficient degree, generally though as related here individual failures under extreme dusty conditions still do sometimes happen.

I've always thought one of the drawbacks to the AR designs was that the charging handle only pulls back. However this feature is not unique to the ARs, the HK series of rifles (G3, H 91, 93, etc) also only has a handle that only works one way.

Note that none of the HKs has or ever had a forward assist. Now, maybe this is because they were made to operate in Europe, but I doubt it. HKs have been working acceptably well all over the world for a long time now, and without the problems the M16 had in Vietnam.

Of course, the HKs never had the US Army working against them the way the M16 did at one time.

TO me, for civilian use the forward assist is a useless appendage, and the dust cover is irrelevant.

Screwball · August 30, 2021, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

While this may work to ensure the carrier is all the way forward, it has less leverage than using the forward assist. And, its something you can only do on a cold rifle. I suppose you could do it on a hot rifle, but I'd bet serious cash you'd only do it ONCE....

You do realize the post I quoted was about easing the bolt forward while hunting… right?

rickyrick · August 30, 2021, 01:04 PM

I’m not a fan of easing a bolt forward.

The AR15 works best when the round is seated with the full force of the action itself.
Easing the bolt forward is kinda asking for problems.

When hunting, the round is chambered long before “quiet time”

bamaranger · August 30, 2021, 01:29 PM

Gene Stoner did not design the rifle with a FA, for me it serves no purpose. A short while back I toyed with the idea of building an AR pattern rifle, ultralight, as a deer carbine (likely in 6.5 Grendel or 6ARC). My build would have included a receiver devoid of FA or dustcover.

kymasabe · August 30, 2021, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickyrick

When hunting, the round is chambered long before “quiet time”

That's why sweet Lord Jesus invented safeties !!

dgludwig · August 30, 2021, 06:32 PM

I was serving in the USAF as an Air Policeman when the Air Force was transitioning to the AR format from the M1 Carbine. Maybe it was just four years of familiarity with the M1 but, if I had a choice (I didn't

), I would have picked the M1-still might today.

101combatvet · August 30, 2021, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgludwig

I was serving in the USAF as an Air Policeman when the Air Force was transitioning to the AR format from the M1 Carbine. Maybe it was just four years of familiarity with the M1 but, if I had a choice (I didn't

), I would have picked the M1-still might today.

Why?

Steve in PA · August 31, 2021, 01:10 AM

I own two AR's, a Bushmaster and a S&W MP Sport. I bought the Sport as a back up to my Bushmaster for when I go to training classes. I got a good deal on it, but it did not come with the forward assist or dust cover.

I don't find the lack of FA or dust cover to be a bother or hindrance.

RickB · August 31, 2021, 07:44 AM

Round is reluctant to chamber, so what do you do, eject it, and whatever reason there might be for it not chambering cleanly, or, try to cram it deeper into the chamber, where it might not fire, and you might not be able to get it out, again?
When Stoner was approached about adding a forward assist, he recommended against it, and did not design the one adopted by the army for the M16.
Dust cover good.

stagpanther · August 31, 2021, 08:57 AM

My first instinct is always drop the magazine and clear if there is no bang. I might use the forward assist if the buffer tube got taken out, otherwise it's an ornament who's main purpose is to deflect ejecting cases.

Hawg · August 31, 2021, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Screwball

You do realize the post I quoted was about easing the bolt forward while hunting… right?

My hunting rifle is loaded before I leave the house. It's chambered as soon as I get out of the truck.

**44 AMP** · August 31, 2021, 03:58 PM

Quote:

You do realize the post I quoted was about easing the bolt forward while hunting… right?

Yep.

Reloadron · August 31, 2021, 05:50 PM

Some of my rifles have them and some don't, well actually all have the dust covers. I have a few Colt SP1 guns which are slab side and a Colt Sporter Target which has the forward assist.

Since I have other rifles more suited for hunting and about all any of my AR guns see is a clean range environment I really have no need for either. As I recall in Vietnam I had a M16A1 and can't recall if I ever needed to use the forward assist.

Anyway as to a need for a forward assist or dust cover today? I guess it depends on your application plans for the rifle.

Ron

dgludwig · August 31, 2021, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Why?

"Maybe it was just four years of familiarity with the M1..."

STORM2 · August 31, 2021, 08:23 PM

I installed both on the Colt Expanse we bought several years back just because I could. I just figured it should look like the others.

eflyguy · September 1, 2021, 12:46 AM

Not uncommon to see a couple at the matches my daughter and I compete in (100yd off-hand iron sights).. make big boom. (We shoot a 10/22..

)

Next time we go, I'll do an informal poll of all the ARs and see how many have FA.

Joe-ker · September 1, 2021, 08:06 AM

Very good thread. I want to thank all you who served, especially those of you with first hand experience in Vietnam when the design was introduced. Your testimonies hold the most credit.

I like having the FA but it's mostly a piece of mind thing. Coming from an SKS prior to ARs....I had a AD when the SKS bolt wasn't completely closed and I pulled the trigger....nothing....then I hit the bolt and it fired when it closed completely. Now it's just habit for me to tap it to make sure.

dahermit · September 1, 2021, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Anyway as to a need for a forward assist or dust cover today? I guess it depends on your application plans for the rifle.

Exactly... If your (anticipated) application is as a battle rifle, such things make sense.

View Poll Results: AR - Forward assist or dust cover needed?
I don't need either a forward assist or dust cover.	17	34.69%
I need a forward assist but not a dust cover.	1	2.04%
Skip the forward assist but a dust cover is a must-have.	14	28.57%
I gotta have both !	17	34.69%
Voters: 49. You may not vote on this poll

August 30, 2021, 01:29 PM	#29
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,308	design Gene Stoner did not design the rifle with a FA, for me it serves no purpose. A short while back I toyed with the idea of building an AR pattern rifle, ultralight, as a deer carbine (likely in 6.5 Grendel or 6ARC). My build would have included a receiver devoid of FA or dustcover.

August 30, 2021, 06:32 PM	#31
dgludwig Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 2005 Location: North central Ohio Posts: 7,486	I was serving in the USAF as an Air Policeman when the Air Force was transitioning to the AR format from the M1 Carbine. Maybe it was just four years of familiarity with the M1 but, if I had a choice (I didn't ), I would have picked the M1-still might today. __________________ ONLY AN ARMED PEOPLE CAN BE TRULY FREE ; ONLY AN UNARMED PEOPLE CAN EVER BE ENSLAVED ...Aristotle NRA Benefactor Life Member

August 31, 2021, 01:10 AM	#33
Steve in PA Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 1999 Location: Northeastern PA Posts: 756	I own two AR's, a Bushmaster and a S&W MP Sport. I bought the Sport as a back up to my Bushmaster for when I go to training classes. I got a good deal on it, but it did not come with the forward assist or dust cover. I don't find the lack of FA or dust cover to be a bother or hindrance. __________________ Steve

August 31, 2021, 07:44 AM	#34
RickB Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2000 Location: Boise, ID Posts: 8,518	Round is reluctant to chamber, so what do you do, eject it, and whatever reason there might be for it not chambering cleanly, or, try to cram it deeper into the chamber, where it might not fire, and you might not be able to get it out, again? When Stoner was approached about adding a forward assist, he recommended against it, and did not design the one adopted by the army for the M16. Dust cover good. __________________ Runs off at the mouth about anything 1911 related on this site and half the time is flat out wrong.

August 30, 2021, 01:04 PM	#28
rickyrick Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2010 Posts: 8,236	I’m not a fan of easing a bolt forward. The AR15 works best when the round is seated with the full force of the action itself. Easing the bolt forward is kinda asking for problems. When hunting, the round is chambered long before “quiet time”

August 31, 2021, 08:57 AM	#35
stagpanther Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2014 Posts: 11,784	My first instinct is always drop the magazine and clear if there is no bang. I *might* use the forward assist if the buffer tube got taken out, otherwise it's an ornament who's main purpose is to deflect ejecting cases. __________________ "Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill *I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!*

August 31, 2021, 05:50 PM	#38
Reloadron Senior Member Join Date: June 8, 2016 Location: Cleveland, Ohio Suburbs Posts: 1,750	Some of my rifles have them and some don't, well actually all have the dust covers. I have a few Colt SP1 guns which are slab side and a Colt Sporter Target which has the forward assist. Since I have other rifles more suited for hunting and about all any of my AR guns see is a clean range environment I really have no need for either. As I recall in Vietnam I had a M16A1 and can't recall if I ever needed to use the forward assist. Anyway as to a need for a forward assist or dust cover today? I guess it depends on your application plans for the rifle. Ron

August 31, 2021, 08:23 PM	#40
STORM2 Member Join Date: January 23, 2021 Location: Texas Posts: 75	I installed both on the Colt Expanse we bought several years back just because I could. I just figured it should look like the others.

September 1, 2021, 12:46 AM	#41
eflyguy Senior Member Join Date: January 1, 2021 Posts: 335	Not uncommon to see a couple at the matches my daughter and I compete in (100yd off-hand iron sights).. make big boom. (We shoot a 10/22.. ) Next time we go, I'll do an informal poll of all the ARs and see how many have FA.

September 1, 2021, 08:06 AM	#42
Joe-ker Senior Member Join Date: September 6, 2016 Location: North Iowa Posts: 247	Very good thread. I want to thank all you who served, especially those of you with first hand experience in Vietnam when the design was introduced. Your testimonies hold the most credit. I like having the FA but it's mostly a piece of mind thing. Coming from an SKS prior to ARs....I had a AD when the SKS bolt wasn't completely closed and I pulled the trigger....nothing....then I hit the bolt and it fired when it closed completely. Now it's just habit for me to tap it to make sure. __________________ From my cold dead hands.....