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October 10, 2018, 11:38 PM | #51 |
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The few Special Forces troops I know would not put "SOG" in their handle.
And they tend to be very quiet about where they have been and what they have done. People skills are essential to their mission. One of them is now in the R+D end of our discussion,and I don't talk about who he is,where he is,or what he has been working on. I don't know why,but the sound of a coin dropping is in my head. I have,however,met no less than four "Navy Seals" snipers at a local dive bar. Not one of them had any idea what I was talking about when I asked them about what one MIL of a MilDot scope would subtend at 1000 yards for ranging purposes. I met a "Ranger" at that same bar. He had no clue about Rogers Rules,he had no clue about William O Darby,and he could not tell me what "Pogey bait" is. And he could not ID the three phases of Ranger school. I'm not a Veteran. I have the Respect to make that clear. I do have a certain BS detector. I'm not quite sure what it is alerting on. |
October 11, 2018, 01:34 AM | #52 | |||
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Not exactly hiding here, bud. "Studies and Observation Group..SOG" is a Vietnam thing. I was not in Vietnam nor did SOG exist at anytime during my service. That those three letters appear in my username is purely coincidence. Quote:
Just a guess. Quote:
Last edited by davidsog; October 11, 2018 at 12:27 PM. |
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October 11, 2018, 01:54 AM | #53 |
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Getting back to the 6.8--while I know the final selection will probably not be dimensionally exactly like the existing 6.8 spec--purely based on my civilian hobbiest experience of jumping on and building just about every new flavor of a new chambering for the AR platform that comes along--the 6.8 spec, like the existing 5.56, is exceedingly reliable in the crucial aspect of successfully making it from magazine to chamber in it's appointment to meet the firing pin. The rest is tweaking ballistics and bullet design after that IMO.
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October 11, 2018, 04:48 AM | #54 |
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According to one of the above links, the 6.8 spc moves a 120 grain bullet at 2400 fps. This is about what the 7.62X39 gets with 123/124 grain bullets but with a bit better ballistic coefficient but less bullet diameter.
As was mentioned above, the reliability of the round "from magazine to chamber" would be a deciding factor. |
October 11, 2018, 06:10 AM | #55 |
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For "making gray matter splatter" at distance, it's hard to beat a 175 grain HPBT and for making bad guys stop bothering you @ 50' a 9mm sub-gun isn't so bad. Problem is finding a platform and cartridge that does both.
I will say that I have absolutely ZERO confidence in 5.56 FMJ of any description. When combining a long, heavy bullet (855--originally meant to punch a hole ) with a short barrel (14.5"), the velocity is too low to induce the destructive tumbling effect or to provide a flat trajectory needed for long range. |
October 11, 2018, 06:15 AM | #56 | |
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One of the biggest weaknesses I see in the vast majority of "hybrid" AR cartridge design barrels is the functionality of the feed ramps and barrel extension lugs--almost all of which rigidly adhere to the standard M4 type. This is what I attribute a lot of functional reliability issues too. If, for example, you look at the 458 socom (another "best of breed" design IMO, which, like the 6.8spc had SF guys have a hand in it's development, leading one to believe maybe they do know a thing or two about cartridge designs) you can see the bottom lugs on the extension are "faired" to one smooth ramp for the cartridge to reliably make it into the chamber. Admittedly this is because it's a single stack design; but with not too much work on things like barrel extension, magazine and bolt face designs a whole lot of functional and accuracy issues could be improved upon IMO.
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"Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk! Last edited by stagpanther; October 11, 2018 at 06:47 AM. |
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October 11, 2018, 06:40 AM | #57 | |
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October 11, 2018, 06:46 AM | #58 | |
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October 11, 2018, 08:28 AM | #59 | |||
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I have seen mention of 6.8 SPC II that is supposed to allow somewhat better performance. (I find that it may be like .223-5.56, dimensions fudged to allow heavier loads, higher velocity.) Quote:
Last edited by Jim Watson; October 11, 2018 at 08:54 AM. |
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October 11, 2018, 11:01 AM | #60 | |
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This might simplify the reason ordnance would select the similar 6.8...for use in short barrels for better handling in urban environs, vehicles, etc. |
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October 11, 2018, 11:18 AM | #61 | |
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"Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk! Last edited by stagpanther; October 11, 2018 at 11:27 AM. |
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October 11, 2018, 11:25 AM | #62 | |
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The x39 suffers from the same velocity lose out of short barrels as most ctg using “rifle” powders. The king of the hill in SBR performance is 300blackout. That ctg uses magnum pistol powders to get powder burn in the first 6” or so. It gives x39 ballistics without needing 14+ inches of barrel. |
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October 11, 2018, 11:30 AM | #63 |
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30-06... I could have not remembered the details correctly... I was reading up on the history of the x51 adoption a good while back, and I remember that the idea was to get similar ballistic performance as the 30-06, but in a smaller overall package. Powder improvement was a factor I remember reading about, and possibly a different bullet weight... It's a bit fuzzy as it was a while ago.
There is a wildcat of 6.8 that is just necked to 6.5, I believe it upped the velocity and BC, and managed to get 2800 using a 110gr bullet. Drop the weight to 90gr, for extra velocity in a 16in barrel, and you should be close to current 5.56 62gr velocities. Seems a good place to start. |
October 11, 2018, 11:33 AM | #64 | |
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"Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk! |
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October 11, 2018, 11:55 AM | #65 |
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Stag,
Take a look at the 150gn Golddot in this caliber. You might be surprised what the 300blk can do. ������ |
October 11, 2018, 12:08 PM | #66 | |
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"Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk! Last edited by stagpanther; October 11, 2018 at 12:13 PM. |
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October 11, 2018, 12:50 PM | #67 | |
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It is also one of the results of all the interfacing operators with engineers initiative under George Bush. I know it was a little over the top about the "Gray Matter..blah blah". It was used to motivate students teaching SMT at SWC. (Infantry Tactics at the Schoolhouse). Forgive me for having a little fun! |
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October 11, 2018, 01:40 PM | #68 | |
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October 11, 2018, 02:40 PM | #69 |
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Looked at from the logical point of view (at least my logic)--to get a multipurpose cartridge that can "double-duty" for both close CQB and intermediate range sniper/suppression--you need a cartridge that will go "comfortably" up and down between light high BC bullets and heavy big game (guy) droppers Seems to be plenty of .277 offerings between short base bullets and longish higher BC bullets if you can get the COL out there a bit beyond the "default" of 2.26. entirely doable--the only drawback being you're (probably) not going to get just one cartridge load to do both exceedingly well, so there might be some variations in cartridges depending upon use.
Still, there might be some kind of Flash Gordon sci fi new cartridge that will surprise everyone (seems unusually hush hush about what the cartridge design actually is).
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"Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk! |
October 11, 2018, 04:40 PM | #70 |
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Bottom line is... 5.56 is a great round if you select a good loading. It is plenty lethal for targets in the 200lb range, flat shooting, low recoil, and fits in small lightweight rifles.
For LE and civilian use, you can choose a load to be barrier blind or one that will break apart quickly when hitting barriers... There are many options to get various complementary performance features that you may need. It does have limitations, and those limitations tend to affect the military more than LE or civilian defensive uses. Part of the problem is the fact that the military is limited on the types of bullets it can use legally on a battlefield. The increased need to be able to punch through light armor and barriers like block walls or metal doors or any number of things is not a 5.56 strong suit. FMJ is a poor stopper... Some new ammo has helped with that, but also has trade offs. The new m855a1 is said to be a fantastic all around loading, but is pushing the rifle to the limit with it's extremely high chamber pressure. Short barrel performance is also lacking, which affects everyone who needs such things. For LE and civilian use, being very picky about ammo choice can mitigate the problem, but testing the ammo performance is very important to know if the ammo is working for ypu. In such a case. Bumping up the caliber a bit, but not to a full 30cal, and keeping speed close to current speeds will get you what you could want, but design will still be important. A careful balancing act to get the most of the things you need. |
October 12, 2018, 06:26 AM | #71 |
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"for both close CQB and intermediate range sniper/suppression--you need a cartridge that will go "comfortably" up and down between light high BC bullets and heavy big game (guy) droppers"
"you can choose a load to be barrier blind or one that will break apart quickly when hitting barriers... There are many options to get various complementary performance features that you may need." And this is the problem with military use. I( or you) can quite easily have several choices of ammo loaded up ready to go for various purposes. One problem with this is maintaining zero for several bullet weights/types in an "on the go" situation. Another is the fact that to some(many) troops, "bullets is bullets" and training those troops to swap out ammo to meet specific needs is far too complicated especially under combat conditions. |
October 12, 2018, 06:39 AM | #72 | |
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"Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk! |
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October 12, 2018, 07:42 AM | #73 |
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My understanding :The 300 Blackout was developed by J D Jones as a cartridge to fling heavy,high ballistic coefficient 30 cal bullets at subsonic muzzle velocities.
It was designed for very quiet suppressor work with the AR platform. |
October 12, 2018, 08:28 AM | #74 | |
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There is a reason why the DoD small arms data book is ~3 inches thick. |
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October 12, 2018, 08:30 AM | #75 | |
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