Which caliber for my girlfriend

[Wyosmith]

Possum said:
Wyosmith-
What is your opinion of the 200 grain Sierra Game King for elk, fired from a .300 Win Mag? Is it satisfactory, or would you rather use a Partition or one of the other bullets you listed in your post?

I have only used that bullet as a practice bullet in my 300, and I never killed anything with it, so I can't give you an honest answer.

I would say however, if in doubt, go with the Noslers 200 in Partitions or AccuBonds or 220 grain Partition. I KNOW how well they work and the Sierra is an "unknown" to me.

The Sierra is very accurate in my Mauser 300H&H and I like it for my practice rounds. It is far less expensive then the AccuBonds or Partitions, and that lets me fire several hundred a year in practice without breaking the bank.

I bet it would work, but probably not as well from quartering angles. That's my guess because I have used and seen used the 180 grain Sierra GKs on elk deer and once on a moose, and I am going to guess the 200 grain is probably made from the same thickness of jacket, but I could be guessing wrong there.

So if time and money are issues to you on your elk hunt, go with the Noslers.

If hunting them is an every year activity you might try the Sierra, but if I ever do that, I'll load the mag with Noslers and one Sierra in the chamber. If I don't get a "flop-over" I'd shoot my 2nd round, which would be a Nosler. That's only if curiosity gets the best of me. I do try various bullets, so as to have a broader base of knowledge, as I did with 170 grain Hornady SSTs in my 8X57 3 seasons ago (bad choice for elk) but if you are doing a hunt of a lifetime, you can't go wrong with a Nosler Partition.

If I know what a certain bullet will do from using it myself or being next to a hunter who does, and I get to gut and butcher the animal I am 100% comfortable saying what I have seen in print, doubter and haters be damned. But if you ask what I think of one I have no actual first hand knowledge of, I will also tell you the truth, as I have here, and say I don't actually know. If you use one please report the details to us all.

There is a gent here on this site who used a 180 gr Sierra (I think it was) a few years back and killed an elk with it, and having seen that bullet used a LOT I told him before hand what to expect. He got his elk, but the bullet did what I said it would do, and now he's a believer in Nosler partitions. He'll tell you that his results did the job, but not super well.

I don't condemn them, (as I do Burgers) but I can say there are many better choices.

The other side of the argument is always based on the fact that people do kill all kinds of game with poorly designed bullet. I do not deny it at all. Nothing you can hit an animal with from any high powered rifle is "safe" for the game and all bullet will kill. But that is similar to saying all cars can carry bricks. Yup, sure can. But a 3/4 ton truck simply does it a lot better then a Yugo.


The fact that many people kill game with bad bullets is not an argument that those bullets are just as good as those the also kill the game well, but hold together and give 100% penetration even when the angles are sharp or the bones are hit.
There are far too many variables to be 100% dogmatic, so we have to look at the average and the over view.


So ------------------- that's the basic overview.

Happy hunting.

[taylorce1]

Originally Posted by BBarn

My comments were intended to be applied in the context of the OP. If someone can't handle the recoil of a .308 class cartridge in a hunting rifle and wants to use something significantly less powerful, they should consider the limitations of a lesser cartridge.

A .308 Win shoots a 180 grain bullet at 2600 FPS, the 6.5 Creedmoor will shoot a 140 grain bullet at around the same speed. All things being nearly equal, the 6.5 Creedmoor bullet with its higher SD will penetrate further on average than the .308 Win. It does this with less recoil than the .308 Win. So if a .308 with a 180 grain bullet is suitable for elk then surely the 140 grain out of a 6 5 Creedmoor is as well. Having a smaller diameter bullet isn't as limiting as most people think.

[BBarn]

I keep forgetting that the 6.5mm/140 is a magic bullet. It's 6% greater SD means it essentially equals the 15%-19% greater muzzle energy, 28% greater weight, 16% greater diameter, and 23% greater momentum of the .308/180gr. All with less recoil to boot.

[Don Fischer]

Got an idea. You probably have friends with different rifle cartridge's. Take her out with them and have her shoot their rifles and choose for herself what she want's to shoot. Hate to say this as I'm not a big fan of the 243 as a big game round but, it it was all I had and legal, it is in Oregon, I'd not hesitate to use it on an elk! I strongly suspect that given the right circumstances, my 22 RF will kill and elk as dead as anything, just not legal! Don't get into the get down loaded ammo for the rifle she can't handle, get something she can handle!

[std7mag]

Handler2,

None of your mentioned cartridges would fit the bill for an elk cartridge.

As for lighter bullets in the 7mm-08, i've heard of people using a 120gr Nosler Ballistic Tip successfully on elk.

[taylorce1]

Originally Posted by BBarn

I keep forgetting that the 6.5mm/140 is a magic bullet. It's 6% greater SD means it essentially equals the 15%-19% greater muzzle energy, 16% greater diameter, and nearly 50% greater momentum of the .308/180gr. All with less recoil to boot.

I know it seems like I'm singling you out, and I kind of am. You bring some valid points about using larger bullets, but I've yet to see definitive proof that it kills animals any better. No the 140 grain bullet isn't magical, it's just the appropriate bullet for the job of hunting elk.

In terms of penetration, it will perform as well if not better than the same style 180 grain .308 bullet going through the same type of animal if impact velocities are similar. It won't impact with as much energy nor will it make as big of a wound channel, but put in the proper place to take out the vitals and it will perform as effectively as it's larger counterpart. Like I said earlier selecting the right bullet construction for the job is important, much more so than the diameter.

[Ballenxj]

Well, I just read this entire thread, and feel I have gained yet a bit more knowledge.
Also making me wish I had hung onto that old Swedish Mauser I once had that was chambered in 6.5x55.

[Sure Shot Mc Gee]

JTReloader. Here's a Document you may find interesting.

https://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm

[fourbore]

The 7mm-08 is an excellent choice in a light bolt rifle. But; any 6.5mm medium length cartridge will be fine. (260rem, 6.5x55 6.5 creedmore)

For elk a higher sectional density bullet is needed. in 7mm 140 gr min. And better yet 6.5x55 would be well with 160 or less I suppose like 130 more/less. They dont kick that much. The woman can start out light with deer and build her confidence or stay home for the big stuff. It would be preferable to hand load a heavy bullet milder than use too light a bullet at factory speed. IMHO, as always.

Did any one mention hand loading the ammo. This is an perfect example where that would help out. Not the usual penny savings or way to kill time but for a real need.

Edit: I just remember Hornady offers "light" ammo in select calibers. That could help. I dont know. maybe worth a look.

The grindel is too low power. The AR-10 builds are too heavy to carry. The 257 roberts is more shameless pimping.

Ballenxj, Yes, I wish I could reverse a few bad decision like that too.

[fourbore]

I do see a lot of shooters crowd the scope. Bad habits learned with the first rifle like a 22lr or 223. Those are very forgiving of bad form.

Get her a good long eye relief scope and forget the 400 yard stuff. Lower magnification is fine. Think clean kill at closer range. Teach her to hunt as well as shoot. More OPINION, fwiw.

[Chainsaw.]

Any hunter should be conserned with their bullet performance first and the amount of powder second.

That being said, get her a rifle, add to that rifle a GOOD strap that she can carry the rifle across her back with, or better still attached to a GOOD pack. A 10# rifle should be no big deal. Then get a well designed brake on that rifle, or better still a suppressor if possible, best muzzle break there is. Back it all up with a good recoil pad thats fitted right and she’ll be out shooting you in no time.

[Mike Irwin]

"What caliber for my girlfriend?"

Well, that depends... How hard do you think she would be to take down?



That said, you've got a difficult set of parameters to work with.

Light rifle, low recoil...

You could go two directions...

Something like a 6.5x55 or a 7x57 with heavy bullets.

Or...

A more standard caliber chambered in a gun with a muzzle brake like the Browning Boss.

My suggestion?

.308 with a muzzle brake.

[Kvon2]

I've never been a big fan of 6.5C really just because I never saw a personal use for it. However, I do think it fits the bill here.

[Nathan]

Using the chuck hawks table, we see 308 win at 18 ft lbs. I would target a round in the 8-12 lb range.

6.5x55
257 Bob
7x57
7-08

All of those can kill elk at normal recoil levels.

[Paul B.]

"Something like a 6.5x55 or a 7x57 with heavy bullets."

That's the point I was hinting at when I suggested the 7-08 loaded down the 7x57 velocity.

Case in point, a few years back the late gun writer Finn Aagaard told of how his father armed with only one rifle, I'm thinking an original 95 Mauser in 7x57 for all his shooting chores. The only load he used was the 175/175 gr. round nosed bullet at roughly 2300 FPS. He used the rifle not only for stock protection but shot game from the small antelopes to the Cape Buffalo with that rifle. (not me) His father once took one two cattle killing lions with one shot each with that 7x57 and that slow moving 175 gr. bullet.

I load my 7x57 to match the 7-08 but the reverse is true. It shouldn't be too hard to shoot a 160 gr. bullet to the 2400-2550 FPS range and keep recoil within reason. Should work fine on elk to about 200 yards, maybe a bit farther. You could also use a Nosler 150 gr. to about 2600 FPS for a bit more distance and little recoil. The 7-08 may not be able to tale 175 grain bullets due to magazine restrictions but a 160 gr. would be close to perfection.

That old 7x57 killed an awful lot of game in Africa back in the day and built a solid reputation on some mighty big animals. That's how I would go about it if I were in your position. Let her pick out the rifle she's most comfortable with in 7-08, load to match the 7x57 and let her have fun.
Paul B.

[taylorce1]

Originally Posted by Chsinsaw

That being said, get her a rifle, add to that rifle a GOOD strap that she can carry the rifle across her back with, or better still attached to a GOOD pack. A 10# rifle should be no big deal.

Until your game pops out and you have to scramble to get that rifle off your back or out of a pack. Packinga in to before season is one thing, but once you start hunting you need your rifle more accessible IMO.

[Mike Irwin]

"Case in point, a few years back the late gun writer Finn Aagaard told of how his father armed with only one rifle, I'm thinking an original 95 Mauser in 7x57 for all his shooting chores. The only load he used was the 175/175 gr. round nosed bullet at roughly 2300 FPS. He used the rifle not only for stock protection but shot game from the small antelopes to the Cape Buffalo with that rifle. (not me) His father once took one two cattle killing lions with one shot each with that 7x57 and that slow moving 175 gr. bullet."

That article, or a very similar article, ran in American Rifleman back in the 1990s when I was on staff. I often edited Finn's articles for Rifleman.

It's something of lost knowledge in our magnum era that those older cartridges using long for their caliber at relatively sedate speed bullets were HIGHLY regarded for just about all kinds of hunting.

I've often though that I'd like to rechamber a Remington or Winchester for one of the most underappreciated of the old timers, the 6.5x50 Arisaka.

I have a funny feeling that it's capable of a lot more than anyone ever was willing to give it credit for.

[Ballenxj]

^^ I've often wondered about the 7x57 Mauser myself. ^^
I remember reading long ago that it is a fairly flat shooting round, with enough energy to take most game in North America.

[Brian Pfleuger]

Originally Posted by Mike Irwin

He used the rifle not only for stock protection but shot game from the small antelopes to the Cape Buffalo with that rifle. (not me) His father once took one two cattle killing lions with one shot each... I have a funny feeling that it's capable of a lot more than anyone ever was willing to give it credit for.

That was before "magnum" rifle cartridges. The name "Magnum" is to other rifle cartridges what kryptonite is to Superman. Sure, back in the day they were capable... but that was before Magnum cartridges saturated the shooting sports world with Magnumite radiation. Now only Magnum cartridges are capable.

[Drm50]

Back in 70s my wife got stitches from my Win 70fw pre 64 in 308. It is a kicker
for sure with 150gr loads or bigger. I have shot 700BDLs in 308 that didn't kick
enough to complain about. My advice is to stay away from feather weights. And
get her a gun that fits. If it's a joy to carry, it will be a devil to shoot. You can't
have both.

[RC20]

Ammo is easy to get for any of the 6.5 these days, probably CM tops.

You can get a fairly heavy Savage 10T Varmint Cabella only (and maybe Dicks etc) in that caliber at a reasonable cost.

I don't think its a hard combo, I think its downright easy.

Nothing against a 7mm 08 but that is not as common.

You can buy the Savage and if she does not like the stock Boyds has a whole range of them. The Laminates are no different that any composite as they are as stable as plastic of glass.

You could go with an Axis for lower cost and do the same test.

[Mike Irwin]

"That was before "magnum" rifle cartridges. The name "Magnum" is to other rifle cartridges what kryptonite is to Superman. Sure, back in the day they were capable... but that was before Magnum cartridges saturated the shooting sports world with Magnumite radiation. Now only Magnum cartridges are capable."

Magnums have been with us, really, pretty much since the first days of the metallic cartridge smokeless powder era.

Early on, they were known as Express cartridges. Then the first "magnum" came out, the .375 H&H.

What all of those cartridges had in common, though, was that they were targeted at the dangerous game (particularly Africa) markets.

Small bore magnum cartridges for the general purpose market didn't really start appearing on the market until the 1950s, so it's really a relatively recent concept.

[Mike Irwin]

Back when I worked on staff at American Rifleman magazine I wrote an article about the Bank of Boulder's Weatherby promotion.

A few months later I got a VERY hostile letter from a guy who got himself one of the mid-range Weatherby mags... .300, IIRC, and got a serious scoping.

He was screaming about how dangerous the rifle/scope combination was, blah blah blah. He included some pictures of the rifle with the scope on it (looked completely normal), pictures of his injuries (did NOT look normal, guy really got bashed), and, best of all, a picture of him setting up to fire the shot (taken by a friend).

I looked at all of the stuff, passed it around the office to get confirmation of my thoughts, and then wrote him back...

Basically a very short and sweet letter --- "Stop creeping up on the scope, dumbass..."

The picture his friend took? You couldn't have gotten a dollar bill between his forehead and the rear of the scope he was creeping up on it so badly.

[jmr40]

Don't over think this, one of the 6.5's is your answer. If someone already owns a 6.5X55, 260, or any other 6.5 and they handload they are good. If buying new there isn't any reason to choose anything other than the Creedmoor. Especially if buying off the shelf ammo.

The 7-08 is a fine cartridge, but recoil and performance wise you're splitting some mighty fine hairs to be able to show any improvement over 308. If 308 recoil is a problem no shooter will ever notice the difference with a 7-08.

The 6.5 CM and 260 have recoil closer to 243 than 308 and no game animal will ever notice the difference when hit with a 6.5, 7-08, or 308 out to 500 yards. But beyond 500 the 6.5 pulls away. And all 3 of them have proven to be effective elk killers out to 500 yards.

[Ballenxj]

^^ Hahaha! ^^
Mike, I would bet his scope was not adjusted properly, and maybe not enough eye relief either.
I was at the range last week, and witnessed a guy setting up to shoot a rifle from a bench. He stuffed a full size pillow between the but and his shoulder before he shot. I don't know what caliber, as I never talked to him, but what ever it was, it was apparently too much for him.