Bullpups - The Answer To ATF's Possible Crackdown On Pistol Arm Braces...

[Skans]

There are now a number of good 5.56 and even .308 Bullpups out there. OAL puts them in range of many of the pistols with arm-braces. However, they do tend to be quite a bit more expensive than what you can put together yourself in an AR platform.

I would like to see more bullpups come online. Are there other options, other than Form 1's?

[Shadow9mm]

How are you quantifying "good" in relation to a bullup? The fact that you only said good, not great, excellent, awsome, or exceptional, when speaking about bullups may answer the question.

Other than a form 1, sure you can buy a ready made sbr on a form 4.

[Double Naught Spy]

While I am not against more bullpups being produced, they have been around for a very long time and they have not really been welcomed by the US gun community...which is probably the reason why you don't see more of them around. People just didn't like them. They weren't really an 'answer' to the pistol brace issue before pistol braces were legalized and I don't think anything has really changed technologically that would see them as being welcomed anew.

Major factors influencing a lack of interesting in them seem to be the much higher initial cost, more expensive parts, fear of placing one's head right over the chamber, heavier stock triggers that tend to be much worse than stock AR triggers, and finally, they tend to be represented by a very narrow range of calibers. You tend to see .22, .223/5.56, .308/7.62.51. You can find some lesser known manufacturers making them in more calibers such as Desert Tech, but honestly, I had not even heard of them until looking up bullpup calibers and finding this Wiki link. They have some really cool bullpups shown that have been made over the years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bullpup_firearms

Maybe increased demand would spur companies into competitive action to to make design improvements to help overcome some of the shortcomings, but as it stands right now, they mostly just seem to be seen as a novelty and collector's item for most owners, but not really 'shooters,' though some people do shoot them occasionally. How often do you go to a range and see one somebody is shooting?

When I have been to shooting events and somebody breaks out a bullpup, it IS the one gun nearly everybody wants to handle and shoot a few rounds from. They just seem so cool. We all get a chance to shoot it and then nobody else buys one. It seems that for many, the cool factor disappears when they start pulling the trigger and trying to hit targets. That is sort of a sad testimony, but that is the reality I have experienced over the last 20 years.

[Sarge]

My position all along has been if I wanted an SBR or SBS, I would include the necessary paperwork and fees and waiting time in the process of obtaining one.

[taylorce1]

Originally Posted by Sarge

My position all along has been if I wanted an SBR or SBS, I would include the necessary paperwork and fees and waiting time in the process of obtaining one.

If you like to travel with firearms having an SBR or SBS opens a whole new can of worms. I take my braced pistol hunting out of state. An SBR would be nice but I don't want to ask the Feds for permission to take my firearms to TX or OK to hunt.

[Screwball]

Sipped the bullpup Koolaid… traded my Tavor for a 20” AR.

OAL is nice, but it isn’t an AR. When most people run the AR, it’s hard to move away from. Personally, I qualify on M4s at work. Why not use that trigger time on a similar platform?

I personally didn’t like the chamber being right next to my face. I really don’t like it with a suppressor on.

To me, I’ll deal with a 11.5” AR to get the same OAL of a Tavor. Even if it has to be SBRed, I rather go AR.

If we were talking something in pistol caliber… then I’d be more accepting of a bullpup. Shotgun, definitely not double magazine tubes!

[Yellowfin]

The question to ask is what do you want it to do. For my wife, she hated full length rifles for the most part because her arms are short and she's 5'3 but wanted something with more reach than a pistol. A bullpup was the answer for her and found an AUG.

[44 AMP]

While I am not against more bullpups being produced, they have been around for a very long time and they have not really been welcomed by the US gun community...which is probably the reason why you don't see more of them around. People just didn't like them.

While there probably were a few earlier, there were some custom gunsmiths in the 30s who built "bullpup" rifles. These were varmint guns (often in wildcat chamberings) built on bolt and some single shot actions. The advantage was getting a longer barrel in a gun of standard (or less) length, giving higher velocity and all that goes with it. Downsides were poor balance (not a concern to the varmint hunter) and the long trigger linkage needed made a really good trigger pull difficult to achieve.

Modern military bullpups essentially began with the British EM1 and EM2 rifles they developed right after WWII. Since then, there have been several other designs, some successful, (to a point) like the AUG, and others not so much.

They weren't really an 'answer' to the pistol brace issue before pistol braces were legalized and I don't think anything has really changed technologically that would see them as being welcomed anew.

This is a matter that should be discussed with precision. Specifically "braced pistols". Pistol braces have always been legal. STOCKED pistols became regulated by the NFA 1934. There is a difference. Its a matter of technical language, and legal splitting of hairs, but there is a difference and it matters under the law. We're currently waiting for the ATF to redefine what it previously defined, (with little hope for anything good for us), but under existing interpretation of the law, if its not designed to go against your shoulder, then its not a stock. And, if its not a stock, its not regulated under the NFA 34.

Until the ATF changes that interpretation (as it is expected they will soon) it doesn't matter how people USE the brace, its not a stock.

There are or have been braces for pistols for a long time, that weren't stocks, and some that acted like stocks, but were not attached to the gun, and the ATF not only allowed, but essentially ignored them. With the AR pistols, and, thanks to some foolish people on the internet, the ATF isn't ignoring them anymore...

[Double Naught Spy]

Bottom line, they really never caught on in the US for a variety reasons and so aren't apt to be the answer to anything now that they weren't already.

[Yellowfin]

^ One major reason was that for the majority of its existence the AUG was blocked from import and everything else was either made exclusively in full auto or in sufficiently low quantity and high price point that they had no chance in the market. Basically until 2004 there wasn't really that big of a semi auto rifle market in the US at all because of the long standing Colt patent that ended only a few years before the Clinton ban, the Cold War tying up basically all non manually operated rifles produced elsewhere worldwide, then the Clinton ban itself paired with the 89 import ban. Only now with domestic production of the Tavor and AUG has there really been an opportunity to try.

[rickyrick]

I’ll never put a receiver under my face.

[zeke]

Have been intrigued by bull pups for awhile, but never got to experience one. Like the concept of a short rifle and their weight distribution, but am wary over their accuracy capability's and very high over bore sights. For close ranges, not a fan of sights bering very high over the bore.

I like short rifles, short stocks and short barrels. A lot of that has to do with my short arms and preference for very short lop.

Maybe they will make an exception to the new interpretation so as not to discriminate against the vertically challenged ?

[Skans]

I own one bullpup - the K&M M17s .308. I love shooting this gun. Great trigger, reliable, all metal construction, over-engineered bolt and bolt carrier. Just a great handling and shooting .308. I opted for this over an AR version of a 308. It also uses AR-10 extractors and springs for easy replacement, if needed.

I looked at the Desert Tech, but thought the bolt on that one looked like a possible weak link. Also considered the Tavor - actually, I'd like to have a 308 Tavor as well. There are some really good bullpup 12 gauge shotguns out there too.

[44 AMP]

Not having any personal interest in the AR/AK type pistols, I'm watching this from the sidelines, and have a couple questions for those who have a "braced" AR pistol or bullpups, (or know the answers)

First, what is the overall length of the weapon?

What is the length of the barrel(s?) used??

What I'm wondering is how much actual difference in length there is.

As I understand it, in order to be a regular "rifle" and not an NFA item, it has to have a stock, a barrel 16" or longer and an overall length of 26" inches or more.

How much (average) of the compactness of the braced AR pistol are you giving up by going to a bullpup rifle? 2-3"?? more??

[DubC-Hicks]

A typical 10.5" AR with a normal milspec buffer tube, will be about right at 25" tip of barrel threads to end of bare buffer tube. An 11.5" barrel puts you right at the 26" mark. So obviously even longer with a brace and muzzle device.

A Tavor X95 with a 16" barrel is 26.125".

[44 AMP]

Thank you for that information!

As I understand it, the method used for measuring barrel length is from the muzzle to the bolt face (action closed), muzzle devices are not counted as part of the barrel length, unless they meet the ATF requirements of "permanently attached".

But they do count as part of the overall length.

SO, it appears that a bullpup design, firing the same (.223) round is or can be the same length as one of the common barrel lengths used on AR pistols.

And, giving the user several more inches of barrel length with the same approximate overall length as the AR pistol.

That being the case, it seems to me that a bullpup gives the same size package, a lots longer barrel AND avoids potential legal issues over it being an NFA item, or not.

Shoot the same round, from the same size gun, with a longer barrel, and a solidly established legal identification seems like a clear choice of bullpup over AR pistol to me.

Only downside I can see (not counting differences in cost) is you'd need to see if you needed "bullpup specific" mounting hardware for all the attached stuff AR users favor. Again, not my personal area of expertise, but aren't there modern bullpups that use AR mags and the common rails and such??

If you're ok with what I consider the down sides to the bullpup concept, then I'd say go bullpup, let the whole braces/stock thing wither in the dust, and get essentially the same gun (and longer barrel!) that clearly meets the Fed requirements as a rifle so neither pistol nor NFA requirements can apply.