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Old February 11, 2020, 12:47 PM   #26
4V50 Gary
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Are you suggesting a breechloader now?
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Old February 11, 2020, 01:26 PM   #27
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No, a muzzleloader with two superposed shots. Since there’s only two shots in the barrel, it allows the rear chamber to be smaller than the bore, since the rear ball isn’t inserted into the rear chamber itself but infront of it in the bore. The idea is that the recoil of the front load won’t compress the rear charge since the rear ball will be pushed against the face of the chamber, and the smaller chamber will also make for a better sealment, put a O-ring between the chamber face and the ball, and the ball will be compressed against it by the recoil of the front charge.

Last edited by Derringeer; February 11, 2020 at 02:52 PM.
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Old February 11, 2020, 02:11 PM   #28
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Since the ball is round, a part of it will be inside of the chamber. If the chamber is too small, the rear part of the ball will get stuck into the chamber before it can reach the O-ring. The best option is that the ball rest against the O-ring while the rear part of it rest agaist the walls inside of the chamber.

There’s a mathematical calculation for this, but I don’t know how to approach it.

Btw, other than roundballs, a Minié bullet could be inserted backwards at the rear and the skirt of the bullet should expand when the front charge is fired. But I’ll go with roundballs and O-rings to start with..

Another question is what material the O-ring should be made out of. Rubber or copper (or both)?

Last edited by Derringeer; February 11, 2020 at 02:50 PM.
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Old February 11, 2020, 02:31 PM   #29
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Rubber against a powder charge won't last very long.
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Old February 11, 2020, 02:31 PM   #30
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Just go with the Belton. I never figured out how the trigger worked with a sliding lock. Better yet, the Lorenzoni. With modern EDM, you can get precision fit instead of hand fitting. Make the swivel portion out of bronze.
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Old February 11, 2020, 03:38 PM   #31
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Quote:
Hello! I wounder if it’s possible to rapid fire/speed load a muzzleloader?
METALSTORM!

It is a muzzle loader (in that the barrels are loaded from the muzzle) but YOU don't do it, its done at the factory, multiple projectiles and powder charges loaded into the barrel, and fired sequentially (electrically I believe). Multiple Barrels mounted in a "pack".

Considered a crew served weapon, a modern improvement on the volley gun concept.

(and, NOT black powder )
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Old February 11, 2020, 04:31 PM   #32
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I don’t know if the O-ring is necessary. The lead ball is soft and will deform into the chamber making a sealed fit.

I made a sketch where I included flour but maybe there’s something better than flour..?
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Old February 11, 2020, 05:17 PM   #33
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If you're going to drive an over sized ball into the bore you're not going to get very many reloads if any unless you plan on swabbing the bore before you load it every time. Also pounding an over size ball and swabbing kinda makes the whole rapid fire thing moot because all you're going to get is two shots and you can do that more easily with another barrel.
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Old February 11, 2020, 06:50 PM   #34
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This gun will be a pain to reload, that’s for sure. The biggest reason why’s that is because I need to replace the igniters. My idea here is to have multiple barrels, with two superposed loads in each. Therefore four barrels gives eight shots, which is a big improvement in capacity compared to four shots.

In that sense it’s a rapid fire muzzleloader, that’s very slow to actually reload. If the goal on the other hand is a muzzleloaded firearm that can be reloaded fast, I would go for a single or double barrel pistol with a blunderbuss-muzzle, papercartridges and a permanent heating wire in the chamber that don’t need to be replaced. That can be achieved too, I’ve done such permanent igniters that can handle multiple shots before they need to be replaced, but they are bigger than the disposable igniters, require thicker wires and drain the battery much faster.

I guess I could put those kind of permanent igniters in the rear chambers, so that I have eight shots to start with and then the gun has to be reloaded with four non-superposed charges for each reload. The balls I’m planning to use are only like 0.0013” too big for the bore I’m planning to make.
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Old February 11, 2020, 07:10 PM   #35
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I just want to point out, if someone try to speedload whole combustible papercartridges there’s a chance that a ember is left in the bore pre-igniting the round. A leighweight U-shaped ramrod would be a safer option than a ordinary ramrod. Pouring the powder down the bore is also an option, because if it catch on fire atleast it won’t be any bullet infront of it. Also, it will be less residue without the combustible papercartridges and therefore less chances of embers..
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Old February 12, 2020, 06:03 AM   #36
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A few updates..

I tried making a sealed fit with a bit of copper pipe acting like the rear chamber, like this .
With only a leadball infront, I didn’t succeed.

Inside the chamber, the glap is obvious:

So, I made the chamber face more angular:



But still, I didn’t succeed, there’s a small glap (in reality it looks much smaller than in the photo:
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Old February 12, 2020, 12:08 PM   #37
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I just want to point out,

Your pictures are way too large

Quote:
if someone try to speedload whole combustible papercartridges there’s a chance that a ember is left in the bore pre-igniting the round.
Loading a muzzle loader with a paper cartridge is NOT done the way one loads a cannon with a bagged charge.

The paper cartridge is NOT placed in the barrel and seated. The paper is torn (usually bitten open) the powder is poured down the barrel, then the paper is inserted to serve as a wad and the ball/bullet on top of that and rammed home.
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Old February 12, 2020, 03:37 PM   #38
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you need more to do.
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Old February 12, 2020, 05:16 PM   #39
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What are you going to use to set the powder off? An electric charge by itself won't do it. It takes heat to set off bp
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Old February 13, 2020, 04:18 PM   #40
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I tried to fire a superposed load today. I made an improvised barrel in cal .44 by using a steel pipe, my .44 ball were underdimensioned for the bore but that’s a good thing since the idea behind the experiment was to proof my sealing. I didn’t had any tapered chamber either to prevent compression of the rear charge.

I sealed the rear charge using blutak behind the ball and greased wad infront the bore.

I wired everything together and took cover behind a stone just in case, push the button and BANG - one shot goes off. I check the barrel, everything seem okay and the rear round was still left in the chamber. I switch ON the rear circuit, took cover again, push the button - nothing happen.

I couldn’t set the rear round off. I believe the reason behind that is that the compression from the recoil messed up the igniter.

However, no blowback setting the rear charge off. So I guess it was a success for my sealing proofing.

Last edited by Derringeer; February 13, 2020 at 04:52 PM.
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Old February 13, 2020, 04:22 PM   #41
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Hawg, I use nichrome wire to set the powder off, but Kanthal works too.
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Old February 13, 2020, 04:47 PM   #42
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Regarding fast reloading of muzzleloaders with multiple barrels (pepperbox, over/under derringers etc.)

The goal is to be able to reload the gun faster than you can reload a modern cartridge revolver using a speedloader. Since you don’t need to manipulate the cylinder and extract spent cartridges, it’s not an unrealistic goal.

Maybe a combination of these designs will work? https://youtu.be/Yf9mM15TRCY https://youtu.be/56ODcH2C_Xw

attaching a magnet that stick to the muzzle holding it in place while ramming everything down with a ”multi-ramrod” is my spontaneous thought.

Last edited by Derringeer; February 13, 2020 at 04:53 PM.
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Old February 14, 2020, 08:41 AM   #43
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paper has to be heavily nitrated to be used. Stick with the Belton
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Old February 14, 2020, 10:56 AM   #44
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Quote:
Regarding fast reloading of muzzleloaders with multiple barrels (pepperbox, over/under derringers etc.)

The goal is to be able to reload the gun faster than you can reload a modern cartridge revolver using a speedloader. Since you don’t need to manipulate the cylinder and extract spent cartridges, it’s not an unrealistic goal.

With a little practice a normal person (not Jerry Miculek) can do a speedloader reload
in 3 seconds and a full moonclip reload in 2. Even if you double those times you are still W-A-Y faster than anything you can do with a muzzleloader.
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Old February 14, 2020, 03:52 PM   #45
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Years Ago I had the opportunity to buy a four shot side by side Muzzle loader .
It had two barrels and four locks . I past and happy it did .
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Old February 14, 2020, 04:29 PM   #46
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4V50 Gary, nitrated paper, rolling paper or maybe pure black powder pellets, like those pyrodex pellets that you can buy for rifles, could be used, but none of those are waterproof. Is there any material that will burn clean and is waterproof too? A cartridge could be made out of packing tape for example, but the downside is that it left too much residue.

Maybe a lacquer could be used, that wont prevent the cartridge from igniting?

Regarding the Belton, how did it solve the problem of gasleaking and overcompression?
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Old February 14, 2020, 05:27 PM   #47
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Quote:
The goal is to be able to reload the gun faster than you can reload a modern cartridge revolver using a speedloader. Since you don’t need to manipulate the cylinder and extract spent cartridges, it’s not an unrealistic goal.
Personally I think it's an unattainable goal. With a six shot revolver push the cylinder latch, swing out the cylinder, eject the empties. Drop the new rounds in, release them from the speed loader, close the cylinder and it's loaded with six fresh rounds. That's about five or six seconds without really trying. You'e going to have to do some sho nuff hustling to load six bp rounds in that time frame. IMO you could empty and reload six rounds out of a single action faster than you can reload six rounds in a front stuffer.
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Old February 15, 2020, 01:20 PM   #48
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What is the best prevention of chainfires, a waxed or a greased patch?
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Old February 15, 2020, 02:02 PM   #49
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For your application I'd say a lubed patch. I wouldn't use grease because it will contaminate the powder. Also you want to use vegetable based lubes not petroleum based lubes.
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Old February 15, 2020, 03:11 PM   #50
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I’m curious, what’s the reason that I shouldn’t use a petroleum based lube? I’ve been using a petroleum based lithium grease, the label says that it can handle stress well, high pressure and high temperatures.

I have some beeswax and different kind of vegetable oils, like coconut oil, olive oil and canola oil. Which oil will work best? What about storage? What’s the best beeswax/oil ratio?

Last edited by Derringeer; February 15, 2020 at 03:31 PM.
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