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March 5, 2019, 12:50 PM | #51 |
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Interesting that while Colt designed the SAA around the .45 with inside lubricated bullet, they hung with heel bullets for a long time with .32, 38, and .41. They eventually went with inside lubricated hollowbase bullets meant to Minie into the barrel.
I have seen references to pre and post 1920 .38 LCs. Did they go to a .357" barrel then? A gunzine writer had USFA make him a .41 LC with .386" barrel to shoot smokeless ammo with undersize bullets. |
March 5, 2019, 02:50 PM | #52 |
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At some point Colt did switch over to barrels more appropriate to firing single diameter (modern) bullets, likely as ammo manufacturer's really started forcing the issue by simply dropping heeled bullet rounds in favor of the easier to deal with modern bullet style.
But that left a lot of guns with no oversized bores, so a common trick was to load rounds like the .32 Short/Long, .38 Short/Long, and .41 Short/Long Colt cartridges with a modern bullet that had a large hollow base. This allowed the skirt formed by the hollow to expand into and engage the rifling of old diameter barrels and still fire fine through the new diameter barrels. These rounds weren't known for their accuracy in the old style barrels, but at least it allowed the guns to be used.
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"The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower. |
March 5, 2019, 02:59 PM | #53 |
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And damn it, I wish you had NOT asked about the .41 Long Colt...
I've always had a fascination with that cartridge, and I have no clue why. Colt chambered Official Police revolvers for them in the late 1920s... And I need to start looking for one AGAIN. Last one I found was in very sad shape (yet the owner thought he had a lump of diamond studded gold). Damn it, Jim...
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"The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower. |
March 6, 2019, 01:39 PM | #54 |
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Old Army Special
Mike - Photos.
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March 8, 2019, 11:53 AM | #55 |
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Thanks for the pix, Bill.
Let me figure out what's going on with my job situation and I'll be in touch!
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"The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower. |
March 10, 2019, 10:12 AM | #56 | |
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Quote:
Swiss FFG closely replicated early BP powders and is superior to other modern brands. I filled modern brass with 40gr by weight of Swiss FFG. This powder is by far the most dense of any black powder on the market. 40gr by weight equaled 40gr by volume with this particular batch. The powder was tap settled then compressed to .19" to .21" with a powder compression die. A Lyman handcast 427098 bullet was inserted and crimped just below the top of forward driving band, sitting firmly on top of the powder. WLP's were used in Starline cases. A 20 shot group from my 20" MGM barrel test stand resulted in 1,240fps @ 8,800psi The same load was used in 1880's original unheadstamped semi-balloonhead cases resulting in 1,373fps @ 14,285psi The same load was used again in both style brass cases but this time using Goex FFFG. Goex is less dense so 40gr weight required a minimum of .22" compression in modern brass. Again the results were consistent. Original Unheadstamped semi-balloonhead cases produced 1,356fps @ 12,648psi Original REM-UMC headstamped semi-balloonhead cases produced 1,248fps @ 10,037psi Original WRA headstamped semi-balloonhead cases produced 1,272fps @ 11,001psi Original Western headstamped semi-balloonhead cases produced 1,276fps @ 12,755psi Original black powder 44-40 cartridges were far more superior than today's tyipical BP AND smokeless loads. Dissected cartridges by me and the late John Kort showed 40gr by weight of a sporting type powder...grains suggesting a mixture of FF and FFF. John Kort took original cartridges, replaced the dead primers and shot them. His results were at times 1,400fps on cases not dissected and 1,370's in cases he dissected. He explains how he replaced dead primes in cases not dissected.....by first saying "don't try this at home". The old timers that fully understood first hand the potency of the "pre-war" cartridges are long dead....only to be followed by myths and misconceptions by the next generations. Old timers, (I am 52), that have been handloading the 44-40 for the past 50 years have no clue as to the true history of the 44-40 cartridge. Their postings prove it. "Twenty two years after its introduction, the first .44 W.C.F. smokeless powder cartridge is found in Winchester's catalog No. 55, dated August, 1895. In its manufacture, Winchester used 17 grains of DuPont No. 2 which was a "bulk" type smokeless powder patented on August 22, 1893. DuPont's description of "bulk" smokeless powder indicated that it was to be loaded in "bulk" measure just like black powder. In the .44 W.C.F., 17 grs. of DuPont No. 2 Bulk Smokeless occupied the same volume as 40 grs. of FFG. Velocity was cataloged at 1,300 f.p.s. for a 55 f.p.s. increase over the the black powder cartridge. To identify the new .44 W.C.F. smokeless powder cartridges from those containing black powder, which looked identical, Winchester put a "W" in a circle on the primer." Dupont #2 had a similar burn rate as today's IMR-4227. However, Unlike 17gr of Dupont #2, 17gr of IMR-4227 is not a case capacity load but is a published load. Also unlike Dupont #2, IMR-4227 is formulated in a way thatt retards burning which prevents high pressure spikes. Lyman's 49th lists a max load, 17gr of IMR-4227 with a Lyman 427098. They claim 1,083fps with no pressure listed for Group I rifles like the Winchester 73'. I tested 17gr in my 20" MGM barrel I used for high pressure testing. 17gr with a 427098 resulted in 1,127fps (closely replicating modern Winchester Super-X ammo velocity) @ 9,500psi. I tested 20gr with a 43-215C (427098 replica) resulted in 1,418fps @ 16,500psi but also included .5cc of PSB shot buffer to keep the powder at the back of the case. IMR-4227 is position sensitive and could be why some of my early velocity tests were lower than the manual. Lyman's 49th handloading manual shows a max load of 18.5gr of IMR-4227 with a Speer JHP@ 1,212fps. This load only gave me 1,097fps. 20gr of IMR-4227 produced 1,297fps but also created 12,000psi, just a tad over the 11,000psi max. A caseload (26gr) of IMR-4227 with the popular Magma type 200gr lead bullet resulted in 1,733fps but produced 20,913psi....only safe for Group II rifles like the Winchester 92/94 and Marlin's 1894. I am getting consistent 10 shot 4" groups at 100 yards. 22gr with a Winchester 200gr JSP (.425) produced 1,386fps at a lower 12,000psi, which closely replicated early Dupont #2 velocities. I also tested black powder loads in semi-balloon head cases and got a consistent 12,000psi, so I feel safe using 12,000psi loads in my Winchester 73 replica and revolvers with .425-.427 lead or jacketed bullets. Because of my black powder results using semi-balloonhead cases, I am beginning to think that original BP and smokeless factory loads produced a consistent 12,000psi to 13,000psi. I have yet to see original factory data other than 22,000cup for the High Velocity loads that produced 1,500fps. It would appear that Dupont #2 powder was not coated with a flame-deterrent coating that would retard burning thus causing high pressure spikes and may be why Winchester advertised their new smokeless powder ammunition to NOT be used in revolvers...referring to those black powder frame revolvers. "Dupont #2 was patented in 1893 and was sold under the "Deer Banner" not as No. 2. It was a semi-bulk powder and not very popular compared to No. 1 or Shotgun Bulk." ~RicinYakima By the early 1900's, Sharpshooter replaced Dupont #2. much information by John Kort reiterated.... Unlike Dupont #2, L&R Sharpshooter was specifically used in black powder frame firearms. I assume this must be because of the addition of the flame-deterrent coatings that would retard burning allowing lower pressure curves even lower than black powder. In 1903 the High Velocity .44-40 cartridge was introduced. It to used "Sharpshooter" powder in larger doses to achieve its 1,570 f.p.s. velocity. They were discontinued by the mid 1940's. In 1913, DuPont introduced SR80 (Sporting Rifle) . It was a granular type powder, similar in appearance to DuPont No.2 Bulk Smokeless but was a bit faster burning and was not a "bulk" type powder. It's burning rate was in the same range as "Sharpshooter". “Sharpshooter” and "SR80" fueled millions of .44-40 smokeless factory cartridges up until at least the 1950’s (SR80 was discontinued in 1939) when ball powders began appearing on the scene. Winchester switched to a ball powder similar to the old W630 which also has a similar burning rate to 2400. Remington continued to use “Sharpshooter”. During all that time,factory ballistics for the standard cartridge remained at 1,300 f.p.s. with a 200 gr. jacketed bullet. John had the opportunity to find and shoot cartridges of the period and they equaled and sometimes slightly exceeded the 1,300 f.p.s. cataloged velocity. By the early 1970’s, factory ballistics had been reduced to 1,190 f.p.s. in the catalogs. The reason? It would appear faster burning powders in smaller 7 to 8 gr doses had replaced the slower burning powders. Thus, to keep the pressures within the specified SAAMI limits for the .44-40, the velocity was reduced. I still do not know what the early pressure were for the 44-40. Again my testings found that some black powder loads in early semi-balloonhead case produces 12,000psi to 14,000psi pending which powder I used. I used Swiss FFG and Goex FFFg, Swiss being the hottest. Unlike the earlier smokeless cartridges that produced catalog ballistics, John also found that in testing the current Winchester and Remington JSP cartridges, they fell a bit short of the 1,190 f.p.s.specification ( closer to 1,150 f.p.s. average). My testing resulted in a consistent 1,050fps @ 8,000psi. Most of my factory smokeless powder testings resulted in pressures 10%-20% lower than SAAMI MAP. By the 1990’s a new class of 44-40 cartridges were introduced called “Cowboy”. This was due to the interest in Cowboy Action Shooting. Bullets were lead or lead alloy going at around 900-1000 f.p.s.(rifle). Ballistics are 30+% reduced from the original smokeless (and black powder) cartridge and are just fine for recreational shooting. Time after time I see new comers commenting on how much the 44-40 is not as powerful as they thought, how they don't like it....mainly after shooting factory cowboy loads and thinking that these loads are normal loads. Factory Winchester Super-X hunting loads are not even normal. Soon to, these generations of 44-40 shooters will continue to hand down false information on how the 44-40 is only good for pinking....failing to understand just how much of an importance of a roll the .44 and .44WCF played in 200 yard kills at The Battle of the Little Bighorn. Early Smokeless Powder was sold in Kegs just like black powder. The kegs came in various sizes...some not much bigger than a can of beans. Sharpshooter was developed by Laflin & Rand, then offered by DuPont after they purchased L&R. Hercules produced it from 1912 on. It was a very flexible powder and after about 1900, was THE powder that was used in most all the b.p. cartridge factory smokeless loadings including the H.V., H.P. and W.H.V. (High Velocity) cartridges. It was used right up to the 1950's, after which it was discontinued. Ever since, the 44-40 has been neutered and since most old timers that have been handloading the 44-40 for the past 50 years...were born in 1945 or later........well....now you know the rest of the story. Last edited by Savvy_Jack; March 10, 2019 at 11:44 AM. |
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March 10, 2019, 11:54 AM | #57 |
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Random Recollections and Obscure References.
I used to have a book that included old catalog cuts.
By the mid 1880s, the .45 Colt was carrying 35 grains of black. Mike Venturino crammed in about 38 grains and reported 900+ fps. Sharpe says 40 grains for 900 fps, source "Hatcher." 1939 Stoegers "English Ammunition" table does not show .45 Colt, but .44-40 with only 33 grains black at 1300 fps, same as for 10.5 grains of Revolver Neonite. same velocity as US brands, powder not stated. 1901 Sears advertised .44-40 and .45 Colt with 40 grains of black, 17 and 20 grains of unspecified smokeless, respectively; velocity not given. Mike Venturino was in the habit of using a compression die on BP for CAS, just as for BPCR. He said the extra work loading got him a cleaner burn and saved him having to wipe between match stages. A Handloader magazine article about the smokeless factory, black reload .32 Winchester Special cited poor results with fresh Goex. A can of very old DuPont black gave higher velocity, cleaner burn, and better accuracy. |
March 10, 2019, 02:17 PM | #58 |
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I’ve seen the .45 Colt dismissed as weak as well, including the percussion handguns that are fairly similar (my Pietta Remington NMA holds 33 grns weight of 3F Olde Eynsford, which is quite similar to Swiss, and my 195 grn WFN bullet with a bit of additional space). This should outpace the .45 Schofield and late .45 Colt loads that used 28-30 grns of powder and the 230 grn bullet, which was still fairly potent.
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March 11, 2019, 02:15 PM | #59 |
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A 44-40 with 37 grains of Swiss 2F and a 200 grain RNFP ain't nuffin to sneeze at.
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March 12, 2019, 05:42 PM | #60 |
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Hawg may testing results for 39gr of Swiss FFG behind an Accurate 43-208A in Starline brass gave me 1,221fps @ 8,843psi from a tight chamber 20" barrel
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March 12, 2019, 07:46 PM | #61 |
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The biggest complaint US soldiers had in testing the Model 1873 was the heavy recoil from the standard round.
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"The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower. |
March 12, 2019, 08:29 PM | #62 |
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Wonder if they scrounged .45-55-405 carbine ammo.
Wonder what they thought when the Army went to .45-70-500. |
March 13, 2019, 07:59 AM | #63 | ||
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Quote:
Quote:
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March 13, 2019, 08:36 AM | #64 |
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Maybe I was and Mike meant the 1873 Colt. Reports vary on the reduction in revolver load, some say recoil, some say it was because the early guns were not passing proof test.
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March 13, 2019, 03:41 PM | #65 | |
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Quote:
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March 13, 2019, 04:33 PM | #66 |
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LOL.....
The Model 1873, is the Colt The Model of 1873, is the Winchester The Sharps is in there somewhere too hehehehe |
March 13, 2019, 05:41 PM | #67 | |
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Quote:
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March 13, 2019, 06:20 PM | #68 |
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face palm!
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March 14, 2019, 05:41 AM | #69 |
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Yes, I meant the Colt revolver.
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"The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower. |
March 14, 2019, 06:21 AM | #70 |
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Hey Mike......I knowed whut ya ment but it gived us stuff to talk about!!!!
Those wimpy soldier kids......... |
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