38 Special 'Normal' load

[RougeLeader]

CAUTION: The following thread includes loading data beyond or not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

This is likely to get ugly fast, but I am curious as to what you all consider to be a 'normal', 'standard', or 'average' 38 special load.
I'm not talking about +P, or combat loads, or defensive loads, or minimum spec IDPA power factor loads, I mean what do you consider to be the 'standard' for the 38 special cartridge.

Personally my 'standard' load is a 158gn LSWC at ~800 FPS from a 4 inch model 10. Anything below that I consider to be reduced power, anything above that I consider to be a high power load.

Before someone brings it up, yes I do know that a 38 can certainly reach a wide range of velocities. My carry load is a 158gn LSWC backed by 10.2gn of 2400 and a magnum primer (no chrono data yet) and the lowest load I tried was somewhere in the 650 fps range with Bullseye a few years back. I am just curious as to where you guys all set the bar so to speak.

[gwpercle]

For the longest time my "normal" standard 38 special load was a 158 gr. SWC over 5.0 grs. of Unique. But the latest Lyman Cast Bullet manual has dropped that to 4.5 grs.

The following I have used , due to the powder shortage I had to use whatever powders I could get. All the following are with 158 gr. cast SWC , shot with good results from my model 64 38 special bullseye match target gun. Standard primers:

4.0 grs. Red Dot
4.0 grs. Accurate #2
4.0 grs. Bullseye
4.0 grs. HP38
4.5 grs. Unique
5.0 grs. Accurate #5

All good standard loads. For accuracy it's hard to do better than Bullseye....but Accurate #2 has proven to be just as good .
Unique and Accurate #5 are still winners.

Gary

[5whiskey]

Personally my 'standard' load is a 158gn LSWC at ~800 FPS from a 4 inch model 10. Anything below that I consider to be reduced power, anything above that I consider to be a high power load.

I would agree that this is pretty close to a standard. Seems like all the original BP data I've researched is in line with 158gn projectile chugging along at 800fps or so.

[Unclenick]

Except for the traditional loads being round nose, I suppose the earlier examples are inside expectations. A 144-grain bullet would have the same sectional density as a 230 grain 45 hardball bullet and would travel at about the same velocity, and I suppose that might be a good starting point in representing the ballistic thinking of the early 20th century. But if "normal" means the average thing most folks might be loading for the range today, the 158 grain SWC's and 800 fps are probably about right.

[mikejonestkd]

I shoot a ton of 125 gr lead bullets at about 850 fps, and easily get there with either bullseye or win 231
My 148 gr wadcutters shuffle along at 650 fps with bullseye.
Like you, I try to shoot 158 gr lead swc bullets at 800fps, and use bullseye and won 231 most of the time.

[USSR]

If ~800fps with a 158gr LSWC is your goal, 3.4gr of Bullseye will make you very happy.

Don

[David R]

4 gr. Bullseye
5 gr. Unique
158 SWC

David

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

[T. O'Heir]

148 grain WC with 2.7 of Bullseye in a .357 case. 'Normal' is whatever you think it is.
2400 doesn't require a magnum primer.
The only 2400 data on Alliant's site is for a jacketed 146 grain bullet +P .38 load. 10.2 is over Max for that. The Max load of 9 grains is running 952 FPS out of a 6" barrel.

[RougeLeader]

Interesting, it looks like we are generally using similar yardsticks. I actually thought there would be more deviation.

T. O'Heir, in my Lyman manual (44th edition) 38 Special is listed up to and including 11 grains of 2400 using a standard primer and a 158 grain LSWC. I started at this load, didn't like how the 2400 was burning, and modified my load from there over time. After putting ~400rds down range I am happy with this loading. It is a bit stout, but it burns clean.

[44 AMP]

The accepted standard .38 Special load for generations has been a 158gr @ approximately 850fps. Velocities vary somewhat, because guns do.

[Unclenick]

Originally Posted by RougeLeader

…in my Lyman manual (44th edition) 38 Special is listed up to and including 11 grains of 2400 using a standard primer and a 158 grain LSWC.

Copyright 1967. Data that old is often unreliable and Lyman shows no measured pressures in that databook, so the loads were developed in their 6" model 14 by watching for pressure signs. A lot of hot data is in old databooks because of using that method, which turns out, with modern measuring, too often have been little better than reading tea leaves when it comes to producing a standard load. A lot of old Speer and Hornady loads are too hot, as well.

Note, too, most powders aren't made in the same plant nor by the exact same process that it was then, nor necessarily with the exact same chemistry (different nitrocellulose sources, for example, which can affect total energy content). Primers have almost all changed to formulas that make hotter sparks than they did in 1967. Most important, though, is that pressure measuring equipment is much more widely available now and is used to check at least the top loads in a modern databook.

The current Lyman cast bullet data has no 2400 loads for 158 grain SWC's. They do have it for a 155 grain LSWC (#358156), though, and QuickLOAD's data says it is actually 157.5 grains as cast, so it's a good substitute. The max loads of 2400 with it are listed in both the current Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook and the Lyman #49 manual for standard pressure as 8.3 grains and for +P as 8.8 grains. Adjusting the case and powder burn rate to get Lyman's maximum +P load pressure of 17,300 CUP (I am assuming CUP and transducer psi are close at these pressures) then 11 grains raises the pressure to 30,475 psi. That's the expected value when fired in Lyman's test barrel. Most production guns won't be that high because they aren't as tight, but will likely be over 25,000. So, that's basically a .357 Magnum load pressure. Like Elmer Keith, you've been making the .357 from .38 Special. It's no wonder the load feels stout to you.

[Aguila Blanca]

Just looking on the Hodgdon web site for .38 Special loads with a 158-frain LSWC, their starting loads range in velocity from 661 fps (Trail Boss) to 960 fps with CFE Pistol.

Remember, those are all starting loads, and for .38 Special, not +P.

I don't think your question has an answer. Obviously, there's a huge range covered by "normal" loads for .38 Special.

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol

[Unclenick]

I think you meant Hodgdon and not Hornady. All Hornady data for 38 Special (not +P) starts at 650 fps (4" barrel) and tops out at 850 fps. That said, keep in mind the Hodgdon barrel is 7.7" and also that velocity does not tell you what a load's peak pressure is. The kinetic energy tells you what the average pressure was, not counting that needed to overcome friction, but that's as close as you can get.

[Dufus]

I have tried Hercules 2400 and H4227 in a 38 Special and I do not recommend either one at all.

You can pour the unburned powder out of the barrel with just a little shake.

Completely out of the powders design range.

As most everyone says, if it ain't in a newer book, it usually means don't do it for obvious and various reasons.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by Unclenick

I think you meant Hodgdon and not Hornady.

AAARRRGGGHHH!

Yes, I absolutely did mean Hodgdon, not Hornady. My apologies.

Post corrected.

[craddleshooter]

I searched through old threads and found this, https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=174581

[Unclenick]

Dufus,

I actually jammed a revolver barrel from rotation one time with unburned 2400 blown out of the barrel/cylinder gap. That was early reloading days for me. I learned 2400 is not for low-pressure loads.

[5whiskey]

A lot of hot data is in old databooks because of using that method, which turns out, with modern measuring, too often have been little better than reading tea leaves when it comes to producing a standard load. A lot of old Speer and Hornady loads are too hot, as well.

Unclenick, thank you for the link you embedded. I was able to read a reference source from that link and learn to do something that I long thought and have been told was not possible... convert CUP to PSI with a formula.

Edit... further research suggests that this "formula" is probably suspect. Actually said research indicates to me that the CUP method of measuring pressure is suspect altogether... but it was all they had 100 years ago.

[Dufus]

Dufus,

I actually jammed a revolver barrel from rotation one time with unburned 2400 blown out of the barrel/cylinder gap. That was early reloading days for me. I learned 2400 is not for low-pressure loads.

Exactly. With me, I found the data in the book (don't remember which one) so I had to try both since I had both. I did this back in the late 60s and haven't dabbled with disaster since.

[Nick_C_S]

I thought I'd lurk this thread for a while before I chimed in. I load/shoot more 38 Special than any other cartridge. But I tend to be on the ends of the spectrum: Most the time, I'm shooting pure target level wadcutters that just make IDPA power factor (148g/725f/s). And then, I tend to finish my day with a few cylinders worth of +P's (125JHP's/1kf/s).

My +P's are actually a touch over; but nothing near 357. I like the way they go bang - just the right feel through my Model 67.

In the middle, I load for ICORE power factor; and they're probably near "normal" 38's (if there's such a thing). But I don't shoot a lot of them.

Versatile cartridge. Not bad for the 19th century.

[rodfac]

Lyman's #49 shows 5.0 gr of Unique or 4.5 gr of Winchester/HP38 to be close to but under max and both have worked well in my .38's using standard .38 Special brass. Guns: S&W models 36, 637, 60 and 19. Accuracy varies from 3" @ 25 yds with the shorter bbls, to <2" with the 6" M19. I cast my own with Lyman's 358156 and use them w/o gc, cast from wheel weights and lubed with 50/50 alox/beeswax. HTH's Rod

[rodfac]

Lyman's #49 shows 5.0 gr of Unique or 4.5 gr of Winchester/HP38 to be close to but under max and both have worked well in my .38's using standard .38 Special brass. Guns: S&W models 36, 637, 60 and 19. Accuracy varies from 3" @ 25 yds with the shorter bbls, to <2" with the 6" M19. I cast my own with Lyman's 358156 and use them w/o gc, cast from wheel weights and lubed with 50/50 alox/beeswax. HTH's Rod

[B.L.E.]

I think a "normal" 38 special velocity would be that obtained with a compressed charge of black powder which is what it originally was loaded with in 1898.

[hdwhit]

Rogue Leader asked:
...what you all consider to be a 'normal', 'standard', or 'average' 38 special load.

I only shoot 38 Special out of the 2 inch barrel S&W revolver I inherited from my grandmother. I use 158 grain jacketed hollowpoints over:
* 4.0 gr of Bullseye,
* 3.7 gr of Green Dot,
* 4.7 gr of Hi-Skor 800X or
* 3.5 gr of Red Dot.

Out of a 2 inch barrel, I never see 800 fps, but low- to mid-700s and with a longer barrel you would probably get higher velocities.

I particularly like 800-X as a pistol powder since I weigh every charge on a balance, so the fact it meters inconsistently doesn't bother me. It is close in performance to Unique, but while I rarely find Unique at any of the gun stores I shop, they almost always seem to have some 800-X.

[USSR]

Lyman's #49 shows 5.0 gr of Unique...

5 grains of Unique behind a 158gr lead bullet is a classic full power .38 Special load. Use it all the time myself.

Don