who has made pawn shop rifle purchases?

ReloadKy · August 29, 2018, 08:05 PM

Just curious as to how many of you all have made rifle purchases at pawn shops? If you have, how well did you do with the purchase; did the rifle shoot as well as you hoped when you got it to the range?

Personally I have made one pawn shop purchase. I traded an old hammerlock muzzle loader that I really did not like shooting and a $100 bill for a Ruger American in .243. I have been very pleased with the purchase myself. I have taken the rifle and three different loads and got all three to 1/2 MOA. I have not been able to find any more good "deals" like that in a while. I have seen a Tikka T3 in 7mm08 that I can't talk the owner to lowering the price on.

jmr40 · August 29, 2018, 08:29 PM

It has been a while, but there used to be 3 different locally owned pawnshops where I made many purchases over the years. All 3 were independently owned by good men who were fair and honest. I was able to get several good deals on guns and often traded in stuff I no longer wanted or needed. I never had any issues with any gun ever bought from any of them

Two of the 3 are now out of business and the 3rd was bought out by someone else with lots of money and it is now a high end fancy gun shop with high end prices. They no longer take pawns or even trade for used guns.

The remaining local pawn shops are either chain type stores or small places with people I simply don't trust.

The good news is that we have a small indoor firing range now that does $5 transfers, or will do them free if you pay to shoot for a couple of hours. Another small gunshop has opened locally that is selling at very good prices. They don't have a huge inventory, but do take in trades, but not pawns.

Scorch · August 29, 2018, 08:33 PM

I used to buy quite a bit of pawn shop guns, mostly as donors or as fixer-uppers. You have to understand that most guns don't wind up in a pawn shop because the owner values them highly and takes great care of them. But if you know what you are looking for and looking at, you can find some screaming deals in pawn shops in many areas of the country. Have I gotten lemons in a pawn shop? Sure, but most are pretty good.

As far as owners being good and honest, there are two pawn shops locally I will do business with, and many I never will because the owners tried to take advantage of me. But that's the same in a lot of businesses, so you just shop elsewhere.

FrankenMauser · August 29, 2018, 08:58 PM

Some pawn shops are just digging for gold. You'll know if you're in one as soon as you see their price tags.

Others are more reasonable.
I've made three to eight* ...(?) pawn shop purchases. *(For five of the guns: One business was transitioning from pawn shop to gun shop, and the other is half 'pawn and gun' and half estate auction house ... with the lines very blurry at times. Exactly how each gun fit in with typical "pawn shop" purchases, I'm not sure.)

Anyway...
They ranged from 'parts guns' to cheap beaters, to really nice rifles. I was happy with all but one. ...But, for the price, I'm still not disappointed that the one 'bad' one was truly a lost cause. I got really good to 'fair' pricing on all of them. (I paid $8 for my now-favorite .22 rifle, because it was missing its bolt [$50 on Gunbroker, and it was back in business]. And the 'bad' one was ... $13?)

A friend of mine obtained a rifle that I've talked about before in very long-winded stories, from a pawn shop.
Short version:
He needed a left-handed rifle. He wanted a .270. He preferred stainless.
We found one sitting in the corner, behind the gun racks, covered in dust, just before closing, in, literally, the last possible pawn or gun shop within 90 miles. I don't recall if it was a Remington 700 or a Winchester 70 Featherweight; but it was a left-handed, stainless .270 Win. It looked brand new and had zero dents, dings, or scratches.

Asking price was actually reasonable. But when the owner saw my friend's legitimate interest in the rifle, he piped up, "I'll give it to you for $300, with a soft case and a hard case, and a box of ammo, if you take it right now. That thing's been here for at least three years, and you're the first person that has ever picked it up."

Deal.

It is now in his top-three favorite rifles.
Good deal. Great rifle. Many tags filled.

J.G. Terry · August 30, 2018, 04:22 AM

Pawn Shops where I do business run serial numbers. I feel safer knowing the firearm is not in the computer. We have done our best to make sure the firearm is legit. I got a screaming deal on a Ruger Mark II with no magazine. Same with a SIG 220 45ACP handgun with no magazine. For me, the one that tops them all was a Smith 624 because it was an oddball 44 Special. A friend bought a bargain broken Browning A bolt in 300WSM. It was a dynamite deal considering the rifle came with a Zeiss Conquest Scope.

aarondhgraham · August 30, 2018, 09:14 AM

I've purchased several rifles from The Evil Pawn Shop,,,
Mostly older single-shot .22 rifles.

In my case though I have an advantage,,,
The Evil Pawn Shop Guy always gives me a buy-back guarantee.

That way I don't have to worry,,,
If the gun doesn't perform or is defective,,,
I get my money back with no hard feelings either way.

It's good to be a regular customer.

Aarond

.

Rooster Leghorn · August 30, 2018, 10:21 AM

I've bought 3 guns from pawn shops over the years. All three shot well and have had no issues. I'll say that all 3 were also bought at at least 25% less than their asking price. I always carry a bore light when gun shopping. The 2 local pawn shops I deal with have a large selection and know their stuff.

Ruga Booga · August 30, 2018, 10:28 AM

My FFL where I do my transfers is a pawn shop. I have bought several firearms from them and have been pleased with all of them. All the employees and owner know me by name. They give me great deals and are very friendly

T. O'Heir · August 30, 2018, 11:40 AM

"...Some pawn shops are just digging for gold..." More like they think they've already struck gold. snicker. Mind you, our idiot government made selling firearms such a bureaucratic nightmare the pawn shops quit selling 'em 40 plus years ago.

tlm225 · August 30, 2018, 08:48 PM

I've bought a few at pawn shops over the years. Never got burn on the quality of the gun but most of the shops in my area price well used guns at or even above what I could pay for a new one.

ReloadKy · August 30, 2018, 08:51 PM

tlm I have seen that too. Example; I saw 3 different Remington Model 700's ADL and a couple BDL priced at $799. Hell I could buy a brand new one for that!

LineStretcher · August 30, 2018, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ReloadKy

tlm I have seen that too. Example; I saw 3 different Remington Model 700's ADL and a couple BDL priced at $799. Hell I could buy a brand new one for that!

At the gun show they were doing that too. Some insisted they were priced right and wouldn't budge. At one I pulled up the new price at Sportsman's Warehouse and he still wouldn't budge. Needless to say I walked away.

F. Guffey · August 30, 2018, 10:56 PM

I made a pawn purchase; the pawn shop wanted $45.00 for the old Spanish Mauser. I got busy, so I sent the wife. She took our children, things started to come apart when she did not get approved ‘fast enough’. The two young children touched, turned over and moved everything in the shop. They tried to make her a deal if she would leave and return when she got her approval. They offered to give her a RCBS powder scale with the purchase, in my opinion the scale was worth more than the rifle.

Being a good wife she called me; I instructed her to withdraw her offer, thank the children and instruct the pawn shop I would stop by to purchase the rifle and pick up the scale.

F. Guffey

Jbotto · August 31, 2018, 12:39 AM

I’ve only bought one rifle at a pawn shop. It also happened to be a uhaul dealer in a smaller Wyoming town. Anyways I walked in the front door the had a sign proclaiming “10% off all used guns”. I handed the uhaul keys to the man and perused the rack. Right away an older Savage 340 caught my eye. I had passed on one that has haunted me ever since for $225. Uhaul guy’s tag read $150. He noticed my interest and reminded me of the 10% off. I countered with $120 cash and he wrote it up. The rifle is sound but has some surface rust and mild pitting. Bore looked good. Stock is all intact but the finish is garbage. It’ll be a good project gun for this winter. It shoots well!

kozak6 · August 31, 2018, 04:57 AM

Pawnshops are tough.

At a lot of them, you pretty much have to be a regular to get a good price.

taylorce1 · August 31, 2018, 07:13 AM

I've purchased several firearms from a pawn shop, and like kozak6 mentioned a rapport needs to be built with a lot of pawn shops. Just stopping in on a regular basis helps, but buying something every few trips helps even better. Little purchases can lead to big saving later on, so buy a knife or a tool you need just to let the shop know you're a buyer.

Firearms I purchased from a pawn shops.

Pre 64 FWT custom in .280 Rem in Brown Precision stock and Leupold Vari-X III 2.5-8X36 SCOPE $650.

Savage Anschutz 164 .22lr with Leupold VX III 4.5-14X40 AO $650.

JC Higgins Model 51 .30-06 with Denver Redifeld 2-8 power scope and Springfield sporter in .30-40 Krag for $550.

Stevens 200 .243 Win $175.

M94 .30-30 and Enfield MK1 .303 sporter $225.

Spanish 93 7X57 sporter $40.

Ordered in a brand new Ruger LCR .357 Mag for $335 and Sig Sauer Mosquito for $225.

dzavoina · August 31, 2018, 09:19 PM

A few years ago I bought a Remington 742 in 30-06 and it came with a Bushnell 4X Banner scope.

Sure Shot Mc Gee · August 31, 2018, 09:24 PM

Pawn shops in my area are high dollar tagged. (P_ _ _ America's) so I have no buying experiences to share.

berettaprofessor · August 31, 2018, 09:36 PM

Who has bought from a pawn shop? Who hasn't?

One pawn shop in my area is also the best new gun store for 30 miles around. So I've purchased both new and used guns there. Some good buys, mostly fair prices.

mgulino · September 1, 2018, 09:14 AM

Rifle purchases at gun shops? Sure.
I have three local pawn shops that I check regularly. I have purchased two 22 rifles, a pre-85 Marlin 60 for a bit over $100, and a Ruger 10-22 for $150. Both in perfect condition, no rust, clean bore, and no scratches.
I also bought a sub-MOA Ruger American in 223 for $180.
Have also made a handgun purchase...A Ruger GP-100 in 357 for $200 because the rear sight was broken. A $10 replacement and I was I business.

hooligan1 · September 3, 2018, 09:42 AM

I browse my local pawn shops for guns occasionally, only if all my bills have been paid, and the wife is cool with purchasing another rifle.
Some real nice deals can be had if you pick the right gun at the right time....

Archie · September 4, 2018, 07:05 PM

All pawn shops and most gun shops are much like prospecting for gold. When found, it is right where it is. So much looking pays off.

Pawn shops seem to run in opposites. One finds a two year old .22 lr low cost rifle with the bore rusted and the stock looking like it was used as mallet and jack handle. Next to that one is a 1930s Mannlicher sporter for a silly low price.

One never knows. Take money and look bored.

ReloadKy · September 4, 2018, 08:13 PM

I was lucky enough to make (in my mind) a pretty good purchase this past weekend. This was the second rifle I have purchased from this pawn shop both Ruger Americans and both are tack drivers!! Amount paid for both rifles combined was $350. One has Redfield Revolution and the other was unscoped.

Kvon2 · September 5, 2018, 09:06 PM

I bought an ishapore rifle from a pawn shop that had a table set up at a gun show. I wish I had known more about the rifles and what to look for before purchasing it. I got a fair price but ended up having to replace most of the safety components and the extractor. Luckily these are readily available and not that expensive so overall it was still a positive experience. Plus, if anyone needs help putting together an ishapore safety, I'm an expert now

Soclosenotnear · September 6, 2018, 08:17 AM

I run a pawn shop for a living and have for the last ten years. I've bought 30-40 rifles in that time with very few complaints. I've sold countless rifles to same notion. Deals can be had and rare birds come around relatively often.

August 29, 2018, 08:05 PM	#1
ReloadKy Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2018 Posts: 191	who has made pawn shop rifle purchases? Just curious as to how many of you all have made rifle purchases at pawn shops? If you have, how well did you do with the purchase; did the rifle shoot as well as you hoped when you got it to the range? Personally I have made one pawn shop purchase. I traded an old hammerlock muzzle loader that I really did not like shooting and a $100 bill for a Ruger American in .243. I have been very pleased with the purchase myself. I have taken the rifle and three different loads and got all three to 1/2 MOA. I have not been able to find any more good "deals" like that in a while. I have seen a Tikka T3 in 7mm08 that I can't talk the owner to lowering the price on.

August 29, 2018, 08:29 PM	#2
jmr40 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 10,809	It has been a while, but there used to be 3 different locally owned pawnshops where I made many purchases over the years. All 3 were independently owned by good men who were fair and honest. I was able to get several good deals on guns and often traded in stuff I no longer wanted or needed. I never had any issues with any gun ever bought from any of them Two of the 3 are now out of business and the 3rd was bought out by someone else with lots of money and it is now a high end fancy gun shop with high end prices. They no longer take pawns or even trade for used guns. The remaining local pawn shops are either chain type stores or small places with people I simply don't trust. The good news is that we have a small indoor firing range now that does $5 transfers, or will do them free if you pay to shoot for a couple of hours. Another small gunshop has opened locally that is selling at very good prices. They don't have a huge inventory, but do take in trades, but not pawns. __________________ "If you're still doing things the same way you were doing them 10 years ago, you're doing it wrong" Winston Churchill

August 29, 2018, 08:33 PM	#3
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 15,248	I used to buy quite a bit of pawn shop guns, mostly as donors or as fixer-uppers. You have to understand that most guns don't wind up in a pawn shop because the owner values them highly and takes great care of them. But if you know what you are looking for and looking at, you can find some screaming deals in pawn shops in many areas of the country. Have I gotten lemons in a pawn shop? Sure, but most are pretty good. As far as owners being good and honest, there are two pawn shops locally I will do business with, and many I never will because the owners tried to take advantage of me. But that's the same in a lot of businesses, so you just shop elsewhere. __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services

August 29, 2018, 08:58 PM	#4
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,424	Some pawn shops are just digging for gold. You'll know if you're in one as soon as you see their price tags. Others are more reasonable. I've made three to eight* ...(?) pawn shop purchases. (For five of the guns: One business was transitioning from pawn shop to gun shop, and the other is half 'pawn and gun' and half estate auction house ... with the lines very blurry at times. Exactly how each gun fit in with typical "pawn shop" purchases, I'm not sure.) Anyway... They ranged from 'parts guns' to cheap beaters, to really nice rifles. I was happy with all but one. ...But, for the price, I'm still not disappointed that the one 'bad' one was truly a lost cause. I got really good to 'fair' pricing on all of them. (I paid $8 for my now-favorite .22 rifle, because it was missing its bolt [$50 on Gunbroker, and it was back in business]. And the 'bad' one was ... $13?) A friend of mine obtained a rifle that I've talked about before in very long-winded stories, from a pawn shop. Short version: He needed a left-handed rifle. He wanted a .270. He preferred stainless. We found one sitting in the corner, behind* the gun racks, covered in dust, just before closing, in, literally, the last possible pawn or gun shop within 90 miles. I don't recall if it was a Remington 700 or a Winchester 70 Featherweight; but it was a left-handed, stainless .270 Win. It looked brand new and had zero dents, dings, or scratches. Asking price was actually reasonable. But when the owner saw my friend's legitimate interest in the rifle, he piped up, "I'll give it to you for $300, with a soft case and a hard case, and a box of ammo, if you take it right now. That thing's been here for at least three years, and you're the first person that has ever picked it up." Deal. It is now in his top-three favorite rifles. Good deal. Great rifle. Many tags filled. __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.

August 30, 2018, 04:22 AM	#5
J.G. Terry Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2014 Posts: 577	Pawn Shops where I do business run serial numbers. I feel safer knowing the firearm is not in the computer. We have done our best to make sure the firearm is legit. I got a screaming deal on a Ruger Mark II with no magazine. Same with a SIG 220 45ACP handgun with no magazine. For me, the one that tops them all was a Smith 624 because it was an oddball 44 Special. A friend bought a bargain broken Browning A bolt in 300WSM. It was a dynamite deal considering the rifle came with a Zeiss Conquest Scope. __________________ Intentionally Antagonizing Another MemberInsults and Ad Hominems

August 30, 2018, 09:14 AM	#6
aarondhgraham Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2009 Location: Stillwater, OKlahoma Posts: 8,638	I've purchased several rifles from The Evil Pawn Shop,,, I've purchased several rifles from The Evil Pawn Shop,,, Mostly older single-shot .22 rifles. In my case though I have an advantage,,, The Evil Pawn Shop Guy always gives me a buy-back guarantee. That way I don't have to worry,,, If the gun doesn't perform or is defective,,, I get my money back with no hard feelings either way. It's good to be a regular customer. Aarond . __________________ Never ever give an enemy the advantage of a verbal threat. Caje: The coward dies a thousand times, the brave only once. Kirby: That's about all it takes, ain't it? Aarond is good,,, Aarond is wise,,, Always trust Aarond! (most of the time)

August 30, 2018, 10:21 AM	#7
Rooster Leghorn Member Join Date: August 7, 2018 Posts: 22	I've bought 3 guns from pawn shops over the years. All three shot well and have had no issues. I'll say that all 3 were also bought at at least 25% less than their asking price. I always carry a bore light when gun shopping. The 2 local pawn shops I deal with have a large selection and know their stuff.

August 30, 2018, 10:28 AM	#8
Ruga Booga Senior Member Join Date: September 2, 2017 Location: SE Kansas Posts: 116	My FFL where I do my transfers is a pawn shop. I have bought several firearms from them and have been pleased with all of them. All the employees and owner know me by name. They give me great deals and are very friendly

August 30, 2018, 11:40 AM	#9
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	"...Some pawn shops are just digging for gold..." More like they think they've already struck gold. snicker. Mind you, our idiot government made selling firearms such a bureaucratic nightmare the pawn shops quit selling 'em 40 plus years ago. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

August 30, 2018, 08:48 PM	#10
tlm225 Senior Member Join Date: December 21, 2004 Location: Arkansas Posts: 962	I've bought a few at pawn shops over the years. Never got burn on the quality of the gun but most of the shops in my area price well used guns at or even above what I could pay for a new one. __________________ All that is neccessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. Edmund Burke

August 30, 2018, 08:51 PM	#11
ReloadKy Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2018 Posts: 191	tlm I have seen that too. Example; I saw 3 different Remington Model 700's ADL and a couple BDL priced at $799. Hell I could buy a brand new one for that!

August 30, 2018, 10:56 PM	#13
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	I made a pawn purchase; the pawn shop wanted $45.00 for the old Spanish Mauser. I got busy, so I sent the wife. She took our children, things started to come apart when she did not get approved ‘fast enough’. The two young children touched, turned over and moved everything in the shop. They tried to make her a deal if she would leave and return when she got her approval. They offered to give her a RCBS powder scale with the purchase, in my opinion the scale was worth more than the rifle. Being a good wife she called me; I instructed her to withdraw her offer, thank the children and instruct the pawn shop I would stop by to purchase the rifle and pick up the scale. F. Guffey

August 31, 2018, 12:39 AM	#14
Jbotto Senior Member Join Date: February 8, 2010 Location: MN Posts: 437	I’ve only bought one rifle at a pawn shop. It also happened to be a uhaul dealer in a smaller Wyoming town. Anyways I walked in the front door the had a sign proclaiming “10% off all used guns”. I handed the uhaul keys to the man and perused the rack. Right away an older Savage 340 caught my eye. I had passed on one that has haunted me ever since for $225. Uhaul guy’s tag read $150. He noticed my interest and reminded me of the 10% off. I countered with $120 cash and he wrote it up. The rifle is sound but has some surface rust and mild pitting. Bore looked good. Stock is all intact but the finish is garbage. It’ll be a good project gun for this winter. It shoots well!

August 31, 2018, 04:57 AM	#15
kozak6 Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2005 Location: AZ Posts: 3,113	Pawnshops are tough. At a lot of them, you pretty much have to be a regular to get a good price.

August 31, 2018, 07:13 AM	#16
taylorce1 Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2005 Location: On the Santa Fe Trail Posts: 8,249	I've purchased several firearms from a pawn shop, and like kozak6 mentioned a rapport needs to be built with a lot of pawn shops. Just stopping in on a regular basis helps, but buying something every few trips helps even better. Little purchases can lead to big saving later on, so buy a knife or a tool you need just to let the shop know you're a buyer. Firearms I purchased from a pawn shops. Pre 64 FWT custom in .280 Rem in Brown Precision stock and Leupold Vari-X III 2.5-8X36 SCOPE $650. Savage Anschutz 164 .22lr with Leupold VX III 4.5-14X40 AO $650. JC Higgins Model 51 .30-06 with Denver Redifeld 2-8 power scope and Springfield sporter in .30-40 Krag for $550. Stevens 200 .243 Win $175. M94 .30-30 and Enfield MK1 .303 sporter $225. Spanish 93 7X57 sporter $40. Ordered in a brand new Ruger LCR .357 Mag for $335 and Sig Sauer Mosquito for $225. __________________ NRA Life Member

August 31, 2018, 09:19 PM	#17
dzavoina Member Join Date: April 4, 2010 Location: Madison, MS Posts: 34	A few years ago I bought a Remington 742 in 30-06 and it came with a Bushnell 4X Banner scope.

August 31, 2018, 09:24 PM	#18
Sure Shot Mc Gee Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2012 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,876	Pawn shops in my area are high dollar tagged. (P_ _ _ America's) so I have no buying experiences to share.

August 31, 2018, 09:36 PM	#19
berettaprofessor Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 2008 Posts: 1,091	Who has bought from a pawn shop? Who hasn't? One pawn shop in my area is also the best new gun store for 30 miles around. So I've purchased both new and used guns there. Some good buys, mostly fair prices.

September 1, 2018, 09:14 AM	#20
mgulino Senior Member Join Date: July 2, 2017 Posts: 198	Rifle purchases at gun shops? Sure. I have three local pawn shops that I check regularly. I have purchased two 22 rifles, a pre-85 Marlin 60 for a bit over $100, and a Ruger 10-22 for $150. Both in perfect condition, no rust, clean bore, and no scratches. I also bought a sub-MOA Ruger American in 223 for $180. Have also made a handgun purchase...A Ruger GP-100 in 357 for $200 because the rear sight was broken. A $10 replacement and I was I business.

September 3, 2018, 09:42 AM	#21
hooligan1 Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2010 Location: Independence Missouri Posts: 4,586	I browse my local pawn shops for guns occasionally, only if all my bills have been paid, and the wife is cool with purchasing another rifle. Some real nice deals can be had if you pick the right gun at the right time.... __________________ Keep your Axe sharp and your powder dry.

September 4, 2018, 07:05 PM	#22
Archie Senior Member Join Date: May 26, 2000 Location: Hastings, Nebrasksa - the Hear Posts: 2,209	All pawn shops and most gun shops are much like prospecting for gold. When found, it is right where it is. So much looking pays off. Pawn shops seem to run in opposites. One finds a two year old .22 lr low cost rifle with the bore rusted and the stock looking like it was used as mallet and jack handle. Next to that one is a 1930s Mannlicher sporter for a silly low price. One never knows. Take money and look bored. __________________ There ain't no free lunch, except Jesus. Archie Check out updated journal at http://oldmanmontgomery.wordpress.com/

September 4, 2018, 08:13 PM	#23
ReloadKy Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2018 Posts: 191	I was lucky enough to make (in my mind) a pretty good purchase this past weekend. This was the second rifle I have purchased from this pawn shop both Ruger Americans and both are tack drivers!! Amount paid for both rifles combined was $350. One has Redfield Revolution and the other was unscoped.

September 5, 2018, 09:06 PM	#24
Kvon2 Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2016 Posts: 757	I bought an ishapore rifle from a pawn shop that had a table set up at a gun show. I wish I had known more about the rifles and what to look for before purchasing it. I got a fair price but ended up having to replace most of the safety components and the extractor. Luckily these are readily available and not that expensive so overall it was still a positive experience. Plus, if anyone needs help putting together an ishapore safety, I'm an expert now

September 6, 2018, 08:17 AM	#25
Soclosenotnear Senior Member Join Date: July 8, 2016 Location: Summerville, sc Posts: 163	I run a pawn shop for a living and have for the last ten years. I've bought 30-40 rifles in that time with very few complaints. I've sold countless rifles to same notion. Deals can be had and rare birds come around relatively often.