So what are people thinking about the "Reformation"

[Water-Man]

Having choices is interesting. Not having that is boring.

[johnwilliamson062]

Does anyone know of a state where this might avoid state regulations on assault weapons or similar?
It can probably be transferred across state lines without notifying ATFE, unlike an SBR.

They have probably already received their development costs worth of press on this, so great business move.

[tangolima]

Straight grooves can be interpreted as riflings with infinite twist rate.

Stumbling bullets may have advantage for home defense purpose. Huge exit wound through flesh and little penetration through walls.

-TL

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

[zeke]

Always like people trying new things, and pushing the limits. Personally think they got too cute with this. Interpretations change regularly, plain English written in law has better chance of withstanding time as you must change the law instead of the interpretation.

Like another poster have read about historic straight rifling.

[Willie Lowman]

$2000 for a gun that won't accurately shoot past 50 yards? Not for me. Not for most people I'd say. If they were made on regular receivers and priced $1000 less, they may sell some.

[Fishbed77]

Maybe someone can step in here with the legal definition of "rifling." Does this definition mention construction, or just that a barrel imparts spin on a bullet?

Would a polygonal barrel like that used in the CZ82 meet this definition? If anyone is familiar with that pistol, its barrel has no discernible lands or grooves (to the naked eye it looks almost like a smoothbore - nothing like the polygonal barrel of a Glock), and it is a quite accurate pistol.

[marine6680]

I believe that legally, a rifle is defined as a barrel with spiral rifling to impart stability...

It may not be said so painly or directly though.

Apparently they already got a letter from the ATF about it not being considered a rifle.

[Joe-ker]

It's basically the glider kit truck of guns. They think they've found a loop hole but the laws will just be rewritten to close it. Like others said who wants to shell out that kind of$$$ for an inaccurate gun. Home defense----12 gauge buck is hard to beat.

[Double Naught Spy]

1. I think the notion of shooting a firearm knowing that the bullets will destabilize into uncontrolled tumbling flight at short range is a potential recipe for disaster.
2. I do not believe you can count on the gun to hold 4 MOA or better (manufacturer claim) with destabilized bullets.
3. The Nerf football like fin-stabilized bullets offer more controlled flight, but are going to be lighter than regular ammo and of unknown utility for SD/HD applications.
4. It would be cheaper to get a tax stamp for a SBR and have an SBR built than it would to buy the Reformation. The only difference is the wait. At $2000, even with the binary trigger, the Reformation is not a good value product.

[jugornot]

I'd rather throw rocks.

[Nathan]

Full retard IMHO. Eating Tide pods is thinking outside the box too.

+1

Challenging NFA is a black eye move, especially with overpriced crap.

[turtlehead]

I agree that it's Tide Pod eating full retard. For that reason they will sell a bazillion of them.

Good for them.

[DT Guy]

Originally Posted by jugornot

I'd rather throw rocks.

I wouldn't suggest squaring off against someone with a Reformation at 40 paces, unless you're one HELL of a rock thrower....




Larry

[GLK]

Originally Posted by Willie Lowman

$2000 for a gun that won't accurately shoot past 50 yards? Not for me. Not for most people I'd say. If they were made on regular receivers and priced $1000 less, they may sell some.

What this wise man said.

[COSteve]

Originally Posted by Theohazard

They can’t revise the definition of a rifle, that’s defined in federal law. The ATF can’t make or change laws, all they can do is interpret them and hope that interpretation holds up to any future court challenges. And considering rifling has always involved a twist, I think it would be hard for them to convince a court that straight grooves are rifling.

True, however, how fast have the bump stocks been deemed illegal after their use in Las Vegas?

The Reformation is simply an attempt to slide an SBR type rifle through via a loophole. That loophole can close suddenly by a vote of congress. Besides, why do I want an expensive SBR that patterns like a shotgun? Wouldn't a shotgun be a cheaper and arguably more sane HD choice?

[Theohazard]

Originally Posted by COSteve

True, however, how fast have the bump stocks been deemed illegal after their use in Las Vegas?

They haven’t. At least not on the federal level. The only changes have been new state-level legislation.

If I remember correctly, after Vegas, politicians pressured the ATF to reclassify bump stocks as machine guns. The ATF replied that they couldn’t do that since bump stocks didn’t meet the definition of “machine gun” under federal law. I suspect that the ATF got even more political pressure after that, because apparently they’re revisiting the issue. But nothing has come of it yet.

[Theohazard]

Originally Posted by James K

Is the idea that straight rifling is not rifling and so the weapon is not a rifle? I don't think it will work; straight rifling dates back to before mid-19th century and has always been considered rifling technically and legally, even though it doesn't turn.

So have actual shoulder-fired rifles been made with straight rifling before? I think I remember seeing an old deactivated display cannon with straight rifling, but I didn’t know they ever made rifles with straight rifling.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Well, the definition of a rifle in statute is "a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger." The CFR uses basically the same definition.

If I were the manufacturer I'd be careful about changing any part of that design if they don't want to be Atkins Acceleratored. Although, I honestly don't see why ATF would care about this at a practical level.

[Scorch]

So what are people thinking about the "Reformation"

The Reformation is an answer looking for a question, IMO. All we need is more SBR-like non-rifles with goofballs wanna-be ninjas behind them. As far as legality goes, do any of you remember the "Street Sweeper"? Lasted maybe 3 months before being classified as a DD.

[Fishbed77]

Well, the definition of a rifle in statute is "a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger." The CFR uses basically the same definition.

I suppose this all hinges on the definition of a "rifled bore."

Franklin Armory supposedly received a technical interpretation from the ATF saying their product's bore was not rifled.

I'd be interested to see what ATF's definition of a "rifled bore" is. As mentioned earlier, a CZ82-style polygonal bore contains no traditional rifling, and is much more functional than this Reformation bore.

[44 AMP]

What do I think??

I think its a $2000 niche gun, that only a handful of people will buy, and no one looking for a practical gun will go anywhere near it, especially at that stiff price.

They won't sell many, it will go out of production soon, because of that (or because of a re-interpretation of the law) and then the $2000 POS will become a "collectible" $4000 POS.

Which I wouldn't buy, even with tax money...

[Ricklin]

I can make more noise with 100 bucks worth of firecrackers.

[USMCGrunt]

This thing is worthless IMHO. 50 yards and the bullets are destabilized and accuracy going down the toilet makes this thing practically worthless to me. Ooh, it's a SBR length bang stick (because I can't really call it a rifle) but I have a Tavor bullpup that is shorter overall length than a SBR AR-15 and still has a rifled barrel that can accurately put rounds on target. While it may be a little longer, I just put $2k towards another bullpup rifle, a Styer STg77, that is still in the realm of SBR overall length but with a 20" barrel that can still be used at realistic (something past spitting distance) range. Nope, won't be wasting money on this Franklin Arms gimmick.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

That’s a good point. With an 11.5” barrel, the Reformation is about 28” in overall length. You can get bullpups with a 16” rifled barrel with the same overall length. At $2000, you’ve got a few choices of bullpup as well.

[bfoosh006]

After seeing it needed special bullets.... I have zero interest.