March 15, 2017, 10:28 AM | #51 |
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One of the nice things about most modern tactical Tupperware is how easily it can be changed for fairly deep carry to fullish size home defense. The Glock 26 is a perfect example. A 10 round flat baseplate mag in it makes a super small package. Add a G19 or even 17 mag with a sleeve and you have a full grip full capacity handgun for the night stand. Same gun, no muss no fuss to change its roles.
I don't get surprise parties anymore. I mean geez I only winged the guy. You would think he would be over it by now but nooooooo.
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March 15, 2017, 10:31 AM | #52 | |
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If I am taken by surprise by competent and determined attackers I don't kid myself about the likely outcome. I don't have the training facilities to be able to train in that manner with a firearm to overcome that. Pragmatically I am not willing to walk around and respond to any surprise in that violent of a fashion. By the time I recognize such a threat a competent attack would have rendered my unable to respond. If I held myself constantly in the ready to respond violently someone would surprise me and get the wrong response. Let me try to illustrate it differently. One time at a family gathering we were playing football outside. The good news is we were playing football outside and I was not carrying. My wife thought it would be funny, during a break in the action, to sneak up behind me and try a choke hold. My wife ended up over and on the ground in front of her entire family and I looked like a jerk. Muscle memory and all that.... Some of you are advocating that kind of readiness with a firearm. I hope no one throws you a surprise party. |
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March 15, 2017, 10:34 AM | #53 |
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Let's go back to "When I pick up a revolver I know it's a revolver. When I pick up a 1911, I know it's a 1911. When I pick up an XD...".
Yes, we do know what it is when we pick it up. We know what it is what we practice drawing from concealment in the living room. We know what it is what we take it to the range. We even know what it is what we take it with us to the Combat Focus Training Class. So, the question is, what is the underlying reason for Bill's advice, which is consistent with that of many good trainers. And in all honesty, that is a good question. It is an excellent question. I did not understand it, except perhaps in the abstract, until some time after I had taken the Combat Focus Training course. As I went about my daily business, I reflected upon what I had learned. I spent more time thinking about how closely I should walk past the corner of a building to my car, or close to a parked van with a couple of pairs of feet on the other side, or near a dumpster. I reflected upon what to stay alert for, and upon what I might have to do in the gravest extreme. And then it dawned on me. Frankly, the fact that I had strapped on a Ruger with one kind of safety, or a 1911 with a different kind, or a Smith and Wesson M&P 9 with a still different kind, would not have remained high in my consciousness all day. Nor would whether I were carrying in a retention holster or not. If I had to reach for whichever one I was carrying, I would certainly figure it out quickly--but perhaps not quickly enough. It was not a matter of how much I had practiced with each. For the citizen whose "carry rotation" also includes includes an H&K P7 and a SIG DA/SA, there is still more to narrow down. The importance of that was amplified in my mind by watching Tueller exercises. Fact is, those are pretty scary under the best of circumstances. I divested myself of some pistols, narrowing down to two types. One might be better. |
March 15, 2017, 10:37 AM | #54 |
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Much of the resistance to my original post may be because people justify buying guns by thinking "I could carry this.." We all may be guilty of that.
My sense of a problem comes when inexperienced people actually carry multiple types of different guns. I tell you this because, many years ago I did the same thing. It's good to be proficient with many types of firearms. It's even better to own lots of them! But when you get over having all the new guns and have found the one that works best for you, learn it like your tongue knows your teeth, learn to shoot it instinctively and accurately, and carry it the same way and place-as much as is possible. That gun, or type of gun, then becomes a part of you. Regardless of how many guns you own, that gun or type becomes YOUR gun. |
March 15, 2017, 10:47 AM | #55 | |||||||
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March 15, 2017, 11:34 AM | #56 | |
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How ready can you hold yourself? How prepared to deal with that surprise can you be? I think you are aiming for an impossible goal if that goal is to be able to defeat multiple competent and determined opponents who have the advantage of surprise. My personal hope, if I ever have to be in such a situation, is my aggressors are not competent or not fully determined and as such give me the time needed to respond. Preferably they are neither competent or determined and everyone gets to walk away alive. |
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March 15, 2017, 12:06 PM | #57 | |||
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Let's look at the elements:
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March 15, 2017, 12:33 PM | #58 | |
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March 15, 2017, 01:17 PM | #59 | ||
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The use of a firearm is a last resort. The discussion of the carry rotation has to do with improving the chance of success should the firearm ultimately have to be used in a defensive encounter. |
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March 15, 2017, 01:23 PM | #60 | |
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March 15, 2017, 01:50 PM | #61 | |
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An attacker moving at five meters per second will move about a meter in two tenths of a second. That's arm's length, striking distance with a bladed weapon. Combine that with the time required to recognize the threat, draw, and fire, and you still have to figure in the time it takes for your hits to stop the attacker. That's precious little time. Second, we are not talking about "muscle memory" vs "thought process". We are discussing total time. That means the time needed to observe, recognize, make rapid cognitive decisions, react, and respond--plus the time it takes for the force used to take effect. Have you ever observed people using firearms in a classic Tueller exercise? It's scary. In the Combat Focus Training class, a number of basic skills are developed, and the combined, layered skills are used to demonstrate what I have described above. One of the things one does in that routine is to start moving laterally and to draw while doing so. That's because of the importance of every fraction of a second. |
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March 15, 2017, 04:25 PM | #62 | |
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I posted the quoted material below in another thread. Mr. Thomas' story illustrates, among other things, that it is entirely possible to have multiple guns, even those with multiple manuals of arms, and still be effective.
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March 15, 2017, 07:34 PM | #63 | ||
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March 15, 2017, 11:31 PM | #64 |
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As I mentioned in Post #53, I divested a couple of pistols with manual safeties that were somewhat dissimilar. One main reason was the realization that, after a long day, I would not necessarily have what I had put in the holster that morning in the forefront of my consciousness, and that goes to this "carry rotation" discussion.
By the way, I only take the gun out of the holster at night and to bathe. I had another reason: I had decided that having to perform that extra, separate step to disengage the safety was not really a good thing. But I do like the idea of having something to mitigate the risk of an unintentional discharge that might be caused by the entry of stray clothing into an empty holster. I switched to an XDS, with a grip safety that does not require a separate operation. However, I did retain an officers' frame 1911-type pistol, and I have carried it on occasion for various reasons. My reasoning is that the location and operation of the 1911 safety make disengagement an almost automatic movement that takes place as the gun is raised. Rationalization? Maybe. A bad idea? I hope I never find out. |
March 16, 2017, 12:37 AM | #65 |
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Once you find the gun, learn the gun, wear the gun- that gun becomes a part of you. Once it happens, you will understand.
I have lots of guns-LOTS! I love them- some even more than others. But, the one I carry is different. It's always there. I don't have to think about it at all. I know what it will do and what I can do with it. |
March 16, 2017, 01:03 AM | #66 | |
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I like this story for two reasons.
https://www.shootersforum.com/genera...-9mm-bear.html The guy armed with what most would consider an effective weapon in the circumstances, literally threw it away in a panic because he couldn't remember how he had prepared/if he was prepared. The guy armed with what most wouldn't consider to be an effective weapon under the circumstances, prevailed because he had prepared properly, because he kept a cool head and delivered accurate fire under highly stressful circumstances. Quote:
I don't see how it applies here. If the people who disagree with you are on the incompetent end of the scale, then the Dunning-Kruger effect would suggest that they would be overconfident, not recommending caution. On the other hand, if the people who disagree with you are on the highly competent end of the scale (the other area where the Dunning-Kruger effect is evident), while they might underestimate their own competence slightly, they would be doing so out of an abundance of skill and experience. Which would make listening to what they have to say an excellent idea.
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March 16, 2017, 10:30 AM | #67 |
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Love the story, John:
1. Pistol grip shotgun 2. Unchambered carry when the gun might be needed fast What else could go wrong? I knew a guy who was charged by a Texas boar by surprise. He had a pistol grip shotgun and poked it in the snout with the gun and it ran off to his surprise. He added a stock to the gun.
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March 16, 2017, 10:57 AM | #68 |
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I rotate between a Walther p99 compact and a Walther PPS classic.
Same sight picture, same mag release. I agree, BilldeShivs
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March 16, 2017, 11:21 AM | #69 | ||
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rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6 Quote:
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March 16, 2017, 03:35 PM | #70 | |
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I actually started feeling this way a few years ago, whereas in my younger days I always felt confident that I could make the adjustment instantaneously regardless of what I carried that day. That changed one night about three years ago when I heard a 'bump in the night,' and reached for my nightstand gun from a dead sleep, and for a moment I had no idea which gun was in my hand. Soon after I decided to trade/sell all of my handguns that weren't a 1911 pattern or very similar. Well, I didn't go that crazy, but I did change my carry 'rotation' to guns that were either 1911s or functionally similar, such as my Shield. The one exception to this seems to be my revolvers. For some reason I can tell just by touch if I grabbed a revolver vs. anything else. Even from a dead sleep. And of course, there's no issue of fumbling the controls on a DA revolver; true point-and-shoot systems. |
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March 16, 2017, 09:50 PM | #71 |
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I carried 1911 style pistols in 45acp for a decade or two and would not hesitate to carry one again. 1911s just work for me.
BUT, several years ago I made the move to Glocks, first a G30 to stick with the .45acp round I was so accustomed to and then to the G23 trading off a little energy for several more rounds. Right now my EDC is the G23, but if I can't dress around it I I go with G43 I can pocket carry. I totally agree that you need to be 100% comfortable/competent with your EDC. If you have to draw a fire the operation of it needs to be automatic and instinctual. Hours and hours of training with the same or similar platform will build automatic reflexive actions that could save your life.
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March 17, 2017, 12:27 AM | #72 | |
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In other words, the Dunning-Kruger effect applies to people who are either significantly overestimating their competence, or to people who are highly competent. So can you explain which of those two categories you had in mind when you made your comment? Here's a link to the paper in case you would like to review it prior to responding. It's a good read. http://psych.colorado.edu/~vanboven/...er_dunning.pdf
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March 17, 2017, 07:06 AM | #73 |
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A question I was asked when I applied to be a Volunteer with Orange County Sheriffs Office. Have you ever been in a physical fight, as an adult?
Broken down, that is past the age of 18. Looking in to this seemingly simple question, it appears the most common answer is no. Now take an individual, male or female, who has never had a fight, after the age of 18. Place a handgun on their person, the ultimate in fighting tools, fires projectiles, that can cause death, or grievous injury, and expect them to use it, against an other human? Accompanied, by a huge shot of adrenaline, and blood pressure through the roof. Can we just say, it would be a stretch? Also, the rotation Chaps, muddy the waters with different firearms, safety catch, no safety catch, on belt, in pocket? The good news is, most carriers of handguns, owners of concealed carry licenses, will never get to draw them in a real attack (Thank Heavens) or even draw one, and not fire it. |
March 17, 2017, 07:47 AM | #74 | |
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The murder/robbery victim was an ex-military guy to boot. I can't tell you if he got so rattled at having a pistol stuck in his face that he forgot all his training or that he was just never well trained to begin with; but being able to even slowly execute his manual of arms without thinking about it would have given him an extra 10 seconds in a gunfight. And 10 seconds is a lot of time in a gunfight. |
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March 17, 2017, 10:58 AM | #75 | |||
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Same as OP's projection of his low manual dexterity on others
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