Yet another AR .223 load question

grumpa72 · November 9, 2009, 05:22 PM

I spent a number of hours going over the archives and saw the numerous questions about AR and .223 loads, data inconsistency between published sources, etc so forgive if this exact question has come up.

The rifle in question is a bone-stock Colt LE6920, 1/7 twist, powder is H335, bullet is a Hornady 55 gr FMJBT, OAL of 2.217, and, for testing purposes only PMC range brass with CCI SR primer (400? I think). I have tentatively loaded 10 rounds each with the H335 at 24.0, 24.5, 25.0 and 25.5 grains. The question is whether or not I need to explore the regime below 24 and above 25.5 since so much data suggests that the optimum is somewhere in between? I plan on shooting 5 rounds each with open sights at 25 yards and 50 yards. The last question is the seating of the bullet. I seated as close to the middle of the cannelure as possible and got the length of the cartridge at 2.217. Lyman's 49th ed says the length should be 2.260: and Hodgdon's say 2.20. That is a pretty big spread. So, should I just seat it to the middle of the cannelure and be done with it?

I am only loading for paper punching with either my iron sights or my Eotech. No scope yet.

Thank.

Btw, rifle reloading is L O T S more time consuming that any pistol round.

Oops, forgot to ask if anyone can check their Hornady reloading manual to see what it says for the load I am making up?

Qtiphky · November 9, 2009, 05:55 PM

I use the same bullets in my Bushmaster. H335 at 23.6 grains with the Hornady 55 FMJBT seated at 2.20 gives me great groups. I don't remember if I got the load off my data sheet, my Sierra manual or the Hodgdon website, but it works really well in my gun. I did a lot of development with different charges, just as you described, but this was the first and turned out to be the most accurate out of my gun. It is listed around 2972 fps. It is slower than that because of my shorter barrel, but it is still accuracy that counts.

Keep in mind that every gun is different and you may need to play with the seating depth to find your sweet spot with each different load.

rg1 · November 9, 2009, 06:10 PM

It depends mostly on what your rifle likes. I've loaded Hornady 55fmj's in Win, LC, WCC, RP cases, and a few others. I use RP 7 1/2 primers in all loads with H335 powder. I've worked up to 25.3 grains with H335 with no pressure problems. Any load between 24-25.3 grains would be safe with any of my cases. I seat the Horn. 55fmj's to 2.218-2.220". You should be able to find what velocity your rifle likes for accuracy between 24-25.3 grains. I like 25 grains in my rifles.

Alleykat · November 9, 2009, 06:23 PM

My Bushy Shorty has a pretty long leade. When I'm seating @ 2.260", I'm still off the lands. You guys are loading pretty short. Have you used any kind of device to see what the max o.a.l. would be, in order for the bullet to touch the lands?? I'd check that measurement, then back off about .015-.020".

Farmland · November 9, 2009, 06:27 PM

The attached link from sierra though I used the data for Hornady 55 gr FMJ bullets. I also differ from you in that I use RL-7. My rifle likes a load closer to the mid-range powder reading. Though the information attached does give you info for your powder and OAL information.

When I an loading used brass that has been trimmed the crimp is in the bottom area of the cannelure. This works well and I am able to keep the OAL at the recommended number.

I like to keep my OAL at the load data info on the 223 for my AR. I see no problem exploring different powder weights though I would not exceed the max listed.

In any event the above posted link has worked well in supplying me load info for my AR. Good luck and be safe.

bullspotter · November 9, 2009, 09:00 PM

That COL 2.260 might be real close to fitting in the mag, better check a few if you want that COL. my 1-7 twist ARs like the lighter loads with winchester 55 grain fmj, their not real high quality, I shot some 50 grain nosler bullets and found i could push them slightly faster, about a mid load, now the harder i pushed them the worse they go as far as grouping. went from about a 1 inch group to about a 4-5 inch group. Im using 4895 powder tho. I was told i would have better luck with warmer loads with a heavier bullet, thats not an option for me yet as i have several thousand of both bullets, best thing to do is just go do some testing!!

grumpa72 · November 9, 2009, 10:02 PM

Thank you all. Great comments and advice.

If the cannelure is so narrow, will varying the bullet seating depth from the middle of the cannelure to the upper or bottom portion really make a difference? I haven't measured it, but that slot can't be more than a couple of thousandths. Comments?

In a previous post, I had talked about looking for cheap bullets. I have seen a couple of them that don't have a cannelure. Do you just load those to the recommended OAL and then use a factory crimp die? My die set is the Lee standard three die set and I have it set to provide a very light crimp at the cannelure.

rg1 · November 9, 2009, 11:52 PM

Useful area of the cannelure on Hornady's 55 fmj bullet is approx. .030". Since brass is trimmed to 1.760 down to recommended 1.750" the length of the brass can determine where the case mouth is located on the crimp groove. As far as overall length of a loaded round using Hornady's 55fmj bullet, Hornady manual says 2.200" which I find a little short. I've used an overall length of 2.218 up to 2.230" which puts the cannelure inside the case mouth for seating lengths of brass that are 1.750-1.760" long.
Seating Hornady's 55 fmj bullets out longer should pose no problems loading for AR's as the throats are very long but in bolt action .223's seating too long will jam the bullet into the lands. The one bolt action .223 that I have, when the Hornady 55fmj is seated to 2.246" the bullet touches the lands. So seating them to 2.250 or longer would cause failures to chamber and the bolt wouldn't close or it would jam the bullet into the lands or drive the bullet deeper into the case which could be dangerous . So Hornady's recommendation of 2.200" would leave an approximate bullet jump to the lands at .046". I could seat them out to 2.230 and they would still be ok in my bolt action.
I've found in my rifles that trying to seat Hornady 55 fmj's longer than 2.230 gives no accuracy gains. Yours may differ. Also, Hornady's 55 fmj bullet has a blunter rounded tip on the bullet. Other 55 fmj bullets such as Winchester or military 55 fmj's have a long very sharply pointed tip. The recommended overall length for them is often 2.250". If you seat a Winchester 55 fmj bullet to 2.250", and without adjusting your seating die, then seat a Hornady 55 fmj and measure the cartridge overall length you'll find that the length will be approximately 2.225-2.230". This is from the seating stem touching the different bullet shapes differently. So if you seat a Hornady 55 fmj bullet out to 2.250-2.260" it very well may not work in a bolt action rifle. Seating them that long is not recommended or needed in my opinion for shooting even in an AR.

rg1 · November 10, 2009, 01:15 AM

I roughly measured two makes of AR-15 just to find the overall length necessary for a Hornady 55 fmj bullet to touch the lands of the barrel.
AR 1--2.370" AR 2--2.390" (both are standard Nato AR chambers)
At that distance for one they obviously won't fit in your magazine and second is that the bullet is almost out of the case. Only about .060-.070" of the main diameter of the bullet left inside the case mouth. Correct me if my measurements are wrong.
Here's a drawing with dimensions of saami versus Nato .223 chambers:
http://www.ar15barrels.com/data/223vs556.pdf
Here's another good article on AR chambers:
http://www.zediker.com/articles/AR_chambers.pdf
There is so much bullet jump to the lands in a standard AR rifle that trying to seat them 30-40 thousandths longer than recommended won't help much with accuracy. Plus if you try to seat Hornady's long then they won't chamber in your bolt rifle. Note that in the chamber drawing that the freebore difference between a saami and Nato chamber is .250". A quarter inch is a bunch. So, I'd seat Hornady's 55fmj from 2.200-2.230" and sharply pointed Winchester 55 fmj's and other sharp pointed 55 fmj's to 2.250" maximum. You can play around with seating depths with your rifle if you want. That's one of the fun things about reloading.

Alleykat · November 10, 2009, 10:49 AM

I'm using a RRA bull varmint barrel with a Wylde chamber and a 16.5" 1/7 chrome-lined, fluted YHM barrel in recent builds. Neither barrel will accommodate 2.255"-2.260" o.a.l., as will my old Bushy. I'm having to load @ about the same lengths as you guys for the RRA and YHM barrels. I don't crimp any rifle rounds. Doesn't matter where the cannelure is, when you're not crimping. Most high-power competitors don't crimp their rifle rounds.

ragwd · November 10, 2009, 11:00 AM

RG1, both links are identical. I was looking forward to the article you mentioned "Here's another good article on AR chambers" If you have the time please repost link to the article. Thanks

rg1 · November 11, 2009, 12:40 AM

Edited my post with the same two links. Here's the other article on AR chambers.
http://www.zediker.com/articles/AR_chambers.pdf

ragwd · November 11, 2009, 01:27 AM

Thanks RG1, you guys always have great stuff to read.

A_Gamehog · November 11, 2009, 02:36 PM

COL is given, as well as most accurate load..

http://accurateshooter.net/Downloads/sierra223ar.pdf

Alleykat · November 11, 2009, 03:16 PM

I've saved that Sierra pdf, for the load info, but the o.a.l. won't work with two of my ARs.

grumpa72 · November 11, 2009, 05:17 PM

Thank you all for the comments and the links. The education continues.

Alleykat · November 11, 2009, 05:39 PM

Strongly suggest that you buy the Hornady (formerly "Stoney Point") tool with the dummy case for determining proper o.a.l. for your rifles.

November 9, 2009, 05:22 PM	#1
grumpa72 Senior Member Join Date: April 5, 2009 Posts: 487	Yet another AR .223 load question I spent a number of hours going over the archives and saw the numerous questions about AR and .223 loads, data inconsistency between published sources, etc so forgive if this exact question has come up. The rifle in question is a bone-stock Colt LE6920, 1/7 twist, powder is H335, bullet is a Hornady 55 gr FMJBT, OAL of 2.217, and, for testing purposes only PMC range brass with CCI SR primer (400? I think). I have tentatively loaded 10 rounds each with the H335 at 24.0, 24.5, 25.0 and 25.5 grains. The question is whether or not I need to explore the regime below 24 and above 25.5 since so much data suggests that the optimum is somewhere in between? I plan on shooting 5 rounds each with open sights at 25 yards and 50 yards. The last question is the seating of the bullet. I seated as close to the middle of the cannelure as possible and got the length of the cartridge at 2.217. Lyman's 49th ed says the length should be 2.260: and Hodgdon's say 2.20. That is a pretty big spread. So, should I just seat it to the middle of the cannelure and be done with it? I am only loading for paper punching with either my iron sights or my Eotech. No scope yet. Thank. Btw, rifle reloading is L O T S more time consuming that any pistol round. Oops, forgot to ask if anyone can check their Hornady reloading manual to see what it says for the load I am making up?

November 9, 2009, 05:55 PM	#2
Qtiphky Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2008 Location: Upper Michigan, above the Mackinac Bridge Posts: 568	Sounds like my load I use the same bullets in my Bushmaster. H335 at 23.6 grains with the Hornady 55 FMJBT seated at 2.20 gives me great groups. I don't remember if I got the load off my data sheet, my Sierra manual or the Hodgdon website, but it works really well in my gun. I did a lot of development with different charges, just as you described, but this was the first and turned out to be the most accurate out of my gun. It is listed around 2972 fps. It is slower than that because of my shorter barrel, but it is still accuracy that counts. Keep in mind that every gun is different and you may need to play with the seating depth to find your sweet spot with each different load.

November 10, 2009, 01:15 AM	#9
rg1 Senior Member Join Date: November 6, 2001 Posts: 1,125	I roughly measured two makes of AR-15 just to find the overall length necessary for a Hornady 55 fmj bullet to touch the lands of the barrel. AR 1--2.370" AR 2--2.390" (both are standard Nato AR chambers) At that distance for one they obviously won't fit in your magazine and second is that the bullet is almost out of the case. Only about .060-.070" of the main diameter of the bullet left inside the case mouth. Correct me if my measurements are wrong. Here's a drawing with dimensions of saami versus Nato .223 chambers: http://www.ar15barrels.com/data/223vs556.pdf Here's another good article on AR chambers: http://www.zediker.com/articles/AR_chambers.pdf There is so much bullet jump to the lands in a standard AR rifle that trying to seat them 30-40 thousandths longer than recommended won't help much with accuracy. Plus if you try to seat Hornady's long then they won't chamber in your bolt rifle. Note that in the chamber drawing that the freebore difference between a saami and Nato chamber is .250". A quarter inch is a bunch. So, I'd seat Hornady's 55fmj from 2.200-2.230" and sharply pointed Winchester 55 fmj's and other sharp pointed 55 fmj's to 2.250" maximum. You can play around with seating depths with your rifle if you want. That's one of the fun things about reloading. Last edited by rg1; November 11, 2009 at 12:39 AM.

November 11, 2009, 02:36 PM	#14
A_Gamehog Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2009 Location: Central Oregun Posts: 563	Sierra's reloading info for you has a 1:7 twist also COL is given, as well as most accurate load.. http://accurateshooter.net/Downloads/sierra223ar.pdf __________________ "Happiness is knowing the Barred Owl is Eating the Spotted Owl and environmentalists are watching Nature take it's course"

November 9, 2009, 06:10 PM	#3
rg1 Senior Member Join Date: November 6, 2001 Posts: 1,125	It depends mostly on what your rifle likes. I've loaded Hornady 55fmj's in Win, LC, WCC, RP cases, and a few others. I use RP 7 1/2 primers in all loads with H335 powder. I've worked up to 25.3 grains with H335 with no pressure problems. Any load between 24-25.3 grains would be safe with any of my cases. I seat the Horn. 55fmj's to 2.218-2.220". You should be able to find what velocity your rifle likes for accuracy between 24-25.3 grains. I like 25 grains in my rifles.

November 9, 2009, 06:23 PM	#4
Alleykat Junior member Join Date: July 26, 2007 Posts: 3,668	My Bushy Shorty has a pretty long leade. When I'm seating @ 2.260", I'm still off the lands. You guys are loading pretty short. Have you used any kind of device to see what the max o.a.l. would be, in order for the bullet to touch the lands?? I'd check that measurement, then back off about .015-.020".

November 9, 2009, 06:27 PM	#5
Farmland Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 2009 Posts: 869	The attached link from sierra though I used the data for Hornady 55 gr FMJ bullets. I also differ from you in that I use RL-7. My rifle likes a load closer to the mid-range powder reading. Though the information attached does give you info for your powder and OAL information. When I an loading used brass that has been trimmed the crimp is in the bottom area of the cannelure. This works well and I am able to keep the OAL at the recommended number. I like to keep my OAL at the load data info on the 223 for my AR. I see no problem exploring different powder weights though I would not exceed the max listed. In any event the above posted link has worked well in supplying me load info for my AR. Good luck and be safe.

November 9, 2009, 09:00 PM	#6
bullspotter Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2008 Location: Montana Posts: 308	That COL 2.260 might be real close to fitting in the mag, better check a few if you want that COL. my 1-7 twist ARs like the lighter loads with winchester 55 grain fmj, their not real high quality, I shot some 50 grain nosler bullets and found i could push them slightly faster, about a mid load, now the harder i pushed them the worse they go as far as grouping. went from about a 1 inch group to about a 4-5 inch group. Im using 4895 powder tho. I was told i would have better luck with warmer loads with a heavier bullet, thats not an option for me yet as i have several thousand of both bullets, best thing to do is just go do some testing!!

November 9, 2009, 10:02 PM	#7
grumpa72 Senior Member Join Date: April 5, 2009 Posts: 487	Thank you all. Great comments and advice. If the cannelure is so narrow, will varying the bullet seating depth from the middle of the cannelure to the upper or bottom portion really make a difference? I haven't measured it, but that slot can't be more than a couple of thousandths. Comments? In a previous post, I had talked about looking for cheap bullets. I have seen a couple of them that don't have a cannelure. Do you just load those to the recommended OAL and then use a factory crimp die? My die set is the Lee standard three die set and I have it set to provide a very light crimp at the cannelure.

November 9, 2009, 11:52 PM	#8
rg1 Senior Member Join Date: November 6, 2001 Posts: 1,125	Useful area of the cannelure on Hornady's 55 fmj bullet is approx. .030". Since brass is trimmed to 1.760 down to recommended 1.750" the length of the brass can determine where the case mouth is located on the crimp groove. As far as overall length of a loaded round using Hornady's 55fmj bullet, Hornady manual says 2.200" which I find a little short. I've used an overall length of 2.218 up to 2.230" which puts the cannelure inside the case mouth for seating lengths of brass that are 1.750-1.760" long. Seating Hornady's 55 fmj bullets out longer should pose no problems loading for AR's as the throats are very long but in bolt action .223's seating too long will jam the bullet into the lands. The one bolt action .223 that I have, when the Hornady 55fmj is seated to 2.246" the bullet touches the lands. So seating them to 2.250 or longer would cause failures to chamber and the bolt wouldn't close or it would jam the bullet into the lands or drive the bullet deeper into the case which could be dangerous . So Hornady's recommendation of 2.200" would leave an approximate bullet jump to the lands at .046". I could seat them out to 2.230 and they would still be ok in my bolt action. I've found in my rifles that trying to seat Hornady 55 fmj's longer than 2.230 gives no accuracy gains. Yours may differ. Also, Hornady's 55 fmj bullet has a blunter rounded tip on the bullet. Other 55 fmj bullets such as Winchester or military 55 fmj's have a long very sharply pointed tip. The recommended overall length for them is often 2.250". If you seat a Winchester 55 fmj bullet to 2.250", and without adjusting your seating die, then seat a Hornady 55 fmj and measure the cartridge overall length you'll find that the length will be approximately 2.225-2.230". This is from the seating stem touching the different bullet shapes differently. So if you seat a Hornady 55 fmj bullet out to 2.250-2.260" it very well may not work in a bolt action rifle. Seating them that long is not recommended or needed in my opinion for shooting even in an AR.

November 10, 2009, 10:49 AM	#10
Alleykat Junior member Join Date: July 26, 2007 Posts: 3,668	I'm using a RRA bull varmint barrel with a Wylde chamber and a 16.5" 1/7 chrome-lined, fluted YHM barrel in recent builds. Neither barrel will accommodate 2.255"-2.260" o.a.l., as will my old Bushy. I'm having to load @ about the same lengths as you guys for the RRA and YHM barrels. I don't crimp any rifle rounds. Doesn't matter where the cannelure is, when you're not crimping. Most high-power competitors don't crimp their rifle rounds.

November 10, 2009, 11:00 AM	#11
ragwd Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 2006 Posts: 925	RG1, both links are identical. I was looking forward to the article you mentioned "Here's another good article on AR chambers" If you have the time please repost link to the article. Thanks

November 11, 2009, 12:40 AM	#12
rg1 Senior Member Join Date: November 6, 2001 Posts: 1,125	Edited my post with the same two links. Here's the other article on AR chambers. http://www.zediker.com/articles/AR_chambers.pdf

November 11, 2009, 01:27 AM	#13
ragwd Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 2006 Posts: 925	Thanks RG1, you guys always have great stuff to read.

November 11, 2009, 03:16 PM	#15
Alleykat Junior member Join Date: July 26, 2007 Posts: 3,668	I've saved that Sierra pdf, for the load info, but the o.a.l. won't work with two of my ARs.

November 11, 2009, 05:17 PM	#16
grumpa72 Senior Member Join Date: April 5, 2009 Posts: 487	Thank you all for the comments and the links. The education continues.

November 11, 2009, 05:39 PM	#17
Alleykat Junior member Join Date: July 26, 2007 Posts: 3,668	Strongly suggest that you buy the Hornady (formerly "Stoney Point") tool with the dummy case for determining proper o.a.l. for your rifles.