Help in Identifying a fine .22 Target Pistol

Rome · February 22, 2000, 11:30 PM

I was offered the opportunity to purchase a very fine looking and shooting .22 target pistol for match competition. On the barrel is inscribed: "TT-Olympia Pistole Cal. 22 L.R." On the bottom of the flat tip of the barrel is "N.A. Co. Ridgefield, NJ. There is a matched set of serial numbers on the slide and receiver "5224". The gun is a semi-auto with a 8 round clip. The grips are chestnut with checkering on the back and front. The barrel is fixed with grooves cut for a weaver-type scope mount. It is blued. There is a weight mounted below the barrel and in front of the trigger guard which actually wraps around the bottom of the guard for balance. Sights are rudimentary. The trigger feels around 4lbs or slightly less with no slop. It shoots very well. Finally, there is an emblem etched into the slide which looks like a helmut from some suit of armour.
I'd like to know a little more about this weapon. Can any of you identify it? It is strictly for competition target shooting.

Any info will be greatly appreciated.

Rome

**Mal H** · February 22, 2000, 11:43 PM

Moving to Harley Nolden's Institute ....

makarov · February 23, 2000, 12:19 AM

Norinco - the Chinese company - made copies of the famous Walther TT-Olympia pistol. The original was made in the 30's I believe. You can do a dejanews search and find out more go to:
www.deja.com

do a Power Search in the rec.guns forum for TT-Olympia etc..

Good Luck

Jeff OTMG · February 23, 2000, 11:15 AM

Exactly. If it was made in China it is Walther copy. They sold NIB for $99-$125. At shows they run $125-$200, in the higher range now that Clinton banned importation of Chinese arms. An original Walther is a collectors item and is worth considerably more.

Rome · February 23, 2000, 11:24 AM

Thanks for the answers so far. I've got a photo (small jpg) which I can provide to you if you need to see it. Provide me with an email and I'll send it to you.

How can I tell if this is a Chinese knockoff? I've disassembled this pistol and there are no indications that it is Chinese at all. How can I tell if it is German?

Rome

Jim V · February 23, 2000, 11:58 AM

The Chinese pistols should all be marked with "made in.....", "imported by..." and the maker's name, I believe it was NORINCO that made the Chinese psitols. All the above marks were/are required on impoprted pistols when the knockoffs were being imported.

------------------
Ne Conjuge Nobiscum
"If there be treachery, let there be jehad!"

Rome · February 23, 2000, 04:00 PM

Well, this weapon does NOT have any "made in" or "imported by" anywhere on this weapon. I've scoured it pretty well, too. Is it possible that I have an actual Walther here? Remember, I've got a photo available to anyone who wants to see it. email me at
[email protected] and I'll zip you a copy. It's only 40k in size.
Rome

Big Bunny · February 23, 2000, 06:39 PM

I would doubt that a full-on Walther UIT 22lr 'sport pistole' or Olympic rapid-fire pistol would have rudimentary sights or a scope-rail as standard.
So it may have been modified a tad maybe.

An armoured figure logo is a bit reminiscent of Unique(french)pistol logos isn't it ?

James K · February 23, 2000, 08:37 PM

How about calling or e-mailing Navy Arms and asking them? We are all guessing.

Jim

Big Bunny · February 23, 2000, 11:00 PM

I agree Jim, but its fun.

Rome · February 23, 2000, 11:10 PM

I really appreciate everyone's help. Is there anyway I can post a photo on this website? I've tried a couple of ways without success. Can you explain Navy Arms? I've never heard of them.
Also, I've reexamined the gun once again and can not find any other marks other than the ones I've already mentioned. Is there any other distinguishing feature that I could use and an identifier?
Rome

fastforty · February 24, 2000, 04:48 AM

You gotta upload your photo to a server, then link to it.

Like this: http://www.homestead.com/musicman9/files/primer.jpg

Or you can make it open automatically, less adviseable because it slows down the opening of this page.

Crappers, forgot how to do that.

[This message has been edited by fastforty (edited February 24, 2000).]

Rome · February 24, 2000, 08:13 AM

Ok, everyone, I've taken fastforty's advise and signed up with Homestead.com. I've downloaded the photo.
In the photo, you'll see the pistol with the stabilizer attached to the front. Also, BigBunny, it appears that the grooves were cut into the barrel aftermarket although very professionally done. Finally, you won't be able to see it, but all the writing on the gun is on the slide which shows. It is too faint to pick up with a digital camera. So, click here to see the pistol. http://polaskifamily.homestead.com/t...iapistole.html

Rome

fal308 · February 24, 2000, 09:22 AM

Are there any proof marks on the barrel or frame? Many European firearms have gov't mandated proof marks. That would at least give you a country or origin or importation.

Rome · February 24, 2000, 10:08 AM

I'm going to go to the range for a couple of hours this morning. When I return, I'll dissasemble the pistol and examine each piece with a glass. If I can find any other marks, I'll post them here. In the meantime, take a moment to look at the photo at the site I've opened above.
Rome

Jeff OTMG · February 24, 2000, 02:24 PM

This appears to be an older pistol. The Chinese gun uses a lighter or more 'blond' wood in the grips and the lack of import marks makes me think it may be a pre-68 gun. Also note the wear in the blue at the muzzle. I thought all Walther made versions had the Walther banner on the slide. Could this be an early Mannhurin copy? Also check the Spanish makers like Astra, they are famous for making knockoff guns. It is a TT Olympia pistol from someone. The design dates from the 1930's and were used by the German team in the Berlin Olympics.

Rome · February 24, 2000, 04:04 PM

Well, I returned from the range. I took my 17 year old daughter for the first time and she loved it.

We went through 150 rounds of .22lr in this pistol and she has a good eye and didn't really want to leave, even after 3 hours. I let her try my .45 and .380, too. Quite a difference from the .22!
I just cleaned this gun and took it apart as far as I felt would be necessary. I found one more mark inside the slide but it was just a 4 digit number. The gun is very well made: too well made for an old "knockoff". I'm very familiar with tools from 25 years ago, and the oriental tools were very poor compared to European or US made. Also, the range officers at S&W observed that this gun looks like it had been "restored" and, in their opinion, it looks precisely how an older gun would look if professionally refurbished. The grips, by the way, have perfect checkering: not machine made but hand cut. Anyway, there weren't any obvious, tell tale signs of anything except a quality pistol. I'm hoping that someone reading this long thread will be able to point me in the right direction to be able to make a final determination. All that being said, if this IS an authentic Walther, is it a desirable pistol to own? And if it's in good shape, what would it be worth? Is it really worth all this fuss? It shoots really well and my daughter fell in love with it. I'll buy it for her but am just trying to authenticate is here with all you experts.
Thanks, again.
Rome

Big Bunny · February 24, 2000, 08:31 PM

Looks like a P38 type Walther clone in .22 to me,with very personalised mods, maybe for a well-heeled Olympic competitor or hopeful?

That strange weight would never be approved by scrutineers to-day, as it wouldn't fit in the ISSF/UIT "box", but in the 1930s maybe they didn't have one. [Who would bother to challenge a nazi German competitor at the Berlin Olympics, anyhow ! Could be nasty !!]

I'd be tempted to take the wing-weight gismo/widget off and bingo! -you have a nice little quiet pocket-piece...!!, but I'd hate to shoot it in a stiff breeze...
maybe, (a stab) $250AUD with rego papers and $800/$900AUD without?

Anyway all the best with your project Rome.

------------------
***Big Bunny***

fastforty · February 25, 2000, 03:06 AM

I'm embarassed. Someone took my advise, and it was only halfa$$.

Here's the whole story: While you're typing out your response, look just below and to the left of the "Submit Reply" button. Click on UBB Code and it will tell you everything that you need to know to make your posts look very professional.

As far as the gun, you never said what the asking price is. Unless the seller can verify that it is a Walther, I don't think that I'd blow a month's rent on it. On the other hand, if my 17 year old daughter liked it that much, and had a good time with me at the range.... well, about all she'd hafta do is smile and bat her eyelashes, ya know? Secondly, if it were a Walther, the reconditioning job would lower it's value. Sounds like you've found a decent little shooter, both the gun, and your daughter.

Rome · February 25, 2000, 07:34 AM

Dear Big Bunny and FastFourty:
Thanks so much for the replies. Yeah, I'm pleased that my daughter enjoyed herself and the asking price is probably around $200 or so. When my brother-in-law finds out that his niece loves the gun, however, I suspect that he'll gift it to her....or at least I hope so. He really likes her and would very much enjoy taking her to the range with him when he visits from time to time. He is currently a State indoor/outdoor pisol champ and will be able to help her a lot.
I've got some additional feelers out for the bottom line on the .22 and as soon as I get a definitive answer I'll post a new topic. I feel that's the least I can do for all the help all of you've provided. So, watch this forum for a future posting.
Thanks, again.
Rome

James K · February 25, 2000, 11:59 AM

Like the TV ad says, Pistol - $200, Range time with your daughter - priceless. Go for it!

As to who made it, don't worry. Maybe you can get some info from the person selling it.

Navy Arms has a web site at www.navyarms.com, with support information, address, etc.

I can't seem to get the picture, but the Olympia pistols were built on a slightly modified Walther PP frame, not a P.38 frame.

BTW, Rome, that .223 primer looks like the firing pin spring is weak.

Jim

Jim

[This message has been edited by Jim Keenan (edited February 25, 2000).]

fastforty · February 25, 2000, 03:11 PM

Jim: That was my primer, after cycling a round in/out of the chamber. It has not been fired. Several ppl who've seen the photo (um, scan) think that it has been fired. (Some sort of optical illusion.) The boltface had a bur around the firing pin hole.

fal308 · February 27, 2000, 08:57 AM

Saw one of these at a gunshow this past weekend. Though I can't appear to access your photo anymore (only the day you posted it) it appears to the the same firearm except with different grips. This one had no markings also save what you wrote about. The table holder said it was a Norinco. It was on the table for $225.

February 22, 2000, 11:30 PM	#1
Rome Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2000 Location: Connecticut Posts: 420	I was offered the opportunity to purchase a very fine looking and shooting .22 target pistol for match competition. On the barrel is inscribed: "TT-Olympia Pistole Cal. 22 L.R." On the bottom of the flat tip of the barrel is "N.A. Co. Ridgefield, NJ. There is a matched set of serial numbers on the slide and receiver "5224". The gun is a semi-auto with a 8 round clip. The grips are chestnut with checkering on the back and front. The barrel is fixed with grooves cut for a weaver-type scope mount. It is blued. There is a weight mounted below the barrel and in front of the trigger guard which actually wraps around the bottom of the guard for balance. Sights are rudimentary. The trigger feels around 4lbs or slightly less with no slop. It shoots very well. Finally, there is an emblem etched into the slide which looks like a helmut from some suit of armour. I'd like to know a little more about this weapon. Can any of you identify it? It is strictly for competition target shooting. Any info will be greatly appreciated. Rome

February 22, 2000, 11:43 PM	#2
Mal H Staff Join Date: March 20, 1999 Location: Somewhere in the woods of Northern Virginia Posts: 16,950	Moving to Harley Nolden's Institute ....

February 23, 2000, 12:19 AM	#3
makarov Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2000 Location: Washington State Posts: 709	Norinco - the Chinese company - made copies of the famous Walther TT-Olympia pistol. The original was made in the 30's I believe. You can do a dejanews search and find out more go to: www.deja.com do a Power Search in the rec.guns forum for TT-Olympia etc.. Good Luck

February 23, 2000, 11:15 AM	#4
Jeff OTMG Senior Member Join Date: October 15, 1998 Location: OKC, OK & Austin, Tx Posts: 3,707	Exactly. If it was made in China it is Walther copy. They sold NIB for $99-$125. At shows they run $125-$200, in the higher range now that Clinton banned importation of Chinese arms. An original Walther is a collectors item and is worth considerably more.

February 23, 2000, 11:24 AM	#5
Rome Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2000 Location: Connecticut Posts: 420	Thanks for the answers so far. I've got a photo (small jpg) which I can provide to you if you need to see it. Provide me with an email and I'll send it to you. How can I tell if this is a Chinese knockoff? I've disassembled this pistol and there are no indications that it is Chinese at all. How can I tell if it is German? Rome

February 23, 2000, 11:58 AM	#6
Jim V Senior Member Join Date: January 31, 1999 Location: SE Michigan - USA Posts: 4,038	The Chinese pistols should all be marked with "made in.....", "imported by..." and the maker's name, I believe it was NORINCO that made the Chinese psitols. All the above marks were/are required on impoprted pistols when the knockoffs were being imported. ------------------ *Ne Conjuge Nobiscum* "If there be treachery, let there be jehad!"

February 23, 2000, 04:00 PM	#7
Rome Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2000 Location: Connecticut Posts: 420	Well, this weapon does NOT have any "made in" or "imported by" anywhere on this weapon. I've scoured it pretty well, too. Is it possible that I have an actual Walther here? Remember, I've got a photo available to anyone who wants to see it. email me at [email protected] and I'll zip you a copy. It's only 40k in size. Rome

February 23, 2000, 06:39 PM	#8
Big Bunny Senior Member Join Date: August 9, 1999 Location: New South Wales - Australia Posts: 605	I would doubt that a full-on Walther UIT 22lr 'sport pistole' or Olympic rapid-fire pistol would have rudimentary sights or a scope-rail as standard. So it may have been modified a tad maybe. An armoured figure logo is a bit reminiscent of Unique(french)pistol logos isn't it ?

February 23, 2000, 08:37 PM	#9
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	How about calling or e-mailing Navy Arms and asking them? We are all guessing. Jim

February 23, 2000, 11:00 PM	#10
Big Bunny Senior Member Join Date: August 9, 1999 Location: New South Wales - Australia Posts: 605	I agree Jim, but its fun.

February 23, 2000, 11:10 PM	#11
Rome Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2000 Location: Connecticut Posts: 420	I really appreciate everyone's help. Is there anyway I can post a photo on this website? I've tried a couple of ways without success. Can you explain Navy Arms? I've never heard of them. Also, I've reexamined the gun once again and can not find any other marks other than the ones I've already mentioned. Is there any other distinguishing feature that I could use and an identifier? Rome

February 24, 2000, 04:48 AM	#12
fastforty Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 1999 Location: In a kornfield in kalifornia Posts: 1,161	You gotta upload your photo to a server, then link to it. Like this: http://www.homestead.com/musicman9/files/primer.jpg Or you can make it open automatically, less adviseable because it slows down the opening of this page. Crappers, forgot how to do that. [This message has been edited by fastforty (edited February 24, 2000).]

February 24, 2000, 08:13 AM	#13
Rome Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2000 Location: Connecticut Posts: 420	Ok, everyone, I've taken fastforty's advise and signed up with Homestead.com. I've downloaded the photo. In the photo, you'll see the pistol with the stabilizer attached to the front. Also, BigBunny, it appears that the grooves were cut into the barrel aftermarket although very professionally done. Finally, you won't be able to see it, but all the writing on the gun is on the slide which shows. It is too faint to pick up with a digital camera. So, click here to see the pistol. http://polaskifamily.homestead.com/t...iapistole.html Rome

February 24, 2000, 09:22 AM	#14
fal308 Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 12, 1998 Location: Missouri Posts: 1,992	Are there any proof marks on the barrel or frame? Many European firearms have gov't mandated proof marks. That would at least give you a country or origin or importation.

February 24, 2000, 10:08 AM	#15
Rome Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2000 Location: Connecticut Posts: 420	I'm going to go to the range for a couple of hours this morning. When I return, I'll dissasemble the pistol and examine each piece with a glass. If I can find any other marks, I'll post them here. In the meantime, take a moment to look at the photo at the site I've opened above. Rome

February 24, 2000, 02:24 PM	#16
Jeff OTMG Senior Member Join Date: October 15, 1998 Location: OKC, OK & Austin, Tx Posts: 3,707	This appears to be an older pistol. The Chinese gun uses a lighter or more 'blond' wood in the grips and the lack of import marks makes me think it may be a pre-68 gun. Also note the wear in the blue at the muzzle. I thought all Walther made versions had the Walther banner on the slide. Could this be an early Mannhurin copy? Also check the Spanish makers like Astra, they are famous for making knockoff guns. It is a TT Olympia pistol from someone. The design dates from the 1930's and were used by the German team in the Berlin Olympics.

February 24, 2000, 04:04 PM	#17
Rome Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2000 Location: Connecticut Posts: 420	Well, I returned from the range. I took my 17 year old daughter for the first time and she loved it. We went through 150 rounds of .22lr in this pistol and she has a good eye and didn't really want to leave, even after 3 hours. I let her try my .45 and .380, too. Quite a difference from the .22! I just cleaned this gun and took it apart as far as I felt would be necessary. I found one more mark inside the slide but it was just a 4 digit number. The gun is very well made: too well made for an old "knockoff". I'm very familiar with tools from 25 years ago, and the oriental tools were very poor compared to European or US made. Also, the range officers at S&W observed that this gun looks like it had been "restored" and, in their opinion, it looks precisely how an older gun would look if professionally refurbished. The grips, by the way, have perfect checkering: not machine made but hand cut. Anyway, there weren't any obvious, tell tale signs of anything except a quality pistol. I'm hoping that someone reading this long thread will be able to point me in the right direction to be able to make a final determination. All that being said, if this IS an authentic Walther, is it a desirable pistol to own? And if it's in good shape, what would it be worth? Is it really worth all this fuss? It shoots really well and my daughter fell in love with it. I'll buy it for her but am just trying to authenticate is here with all you experts. Thanks, again. Rome

February 24, 2000, 08:31 PM	#18
Big Bunny Senior Member Join Date: August 9, 1999 Location: New South Wales - Australia Posts: 605	Looks like a P38 type Walther clone in .22 to me,with very personalised mods, maybe for a well-heeled Olympic competitor or hopeful? That strange weight would never be approved by scrutineers to-day, as it wouldn't fit in the ISSF/UIT "box", but in the 1930s maybe they didn't have one. [Who would bother to challenge a nazi German competitor at the Berlin Olympics, anyhow ! Could be nasty !!] I'd be tempted to take the wing-weight gismo/widget off and bingo! -you have a nice little quiet pocket-piece...!!, but I'd hate to shoot it in a stiff breeze... maybe, (a stab) $250AUD with rego papers and $800/$900AUD without? Anyway all the best with your project Rome. ------------------ *Big Bunny*

February 25, 2000, 03:06 AM	#19
fastforty Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 1999 Location: In a kornfield in kalifornia Posts: 1,161	I'm embarassed. Someone took my advise, and it was only halfa$$. Here's the whole story: While you're typing out your response, look just below and to the left of the "Submit Reply" button. Click on UBB Code and it will tell you everything that you need to know to make your posts look very professional. As far as the gun, you never said what the asking price is. Unless the seller can verify that it is a Walther, I don't think that I'd blow a month's rent on it. On the other hand, if my 17 year old daughter liked it that much, and had a good time with me at the range.... well, about all she'd hafta do is smile and bat her eyelashes, ya know? Secondly, if it were a Walther, the reconditioning job would lower it's value. Sounds like you've found a decent little shooter, both the gun, and your daughter.

February 25, 2000, 07:34 AM	#20
Rome Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2000 Location: Connecticut Posts: 420	Dear Big Bunny and FastFourty: Thanks so much for the replies. Yeah, I'm pleased that my daughter enjoyed herself and the asking price is probably around $200 or so. When my brother-in-law finds out that his niece loves the gun, however, I suspect that he'll gift it to her....or at least I hope so. He really likes her and would very much enjoy taking her to the range with him when he visits from time to time. He is currently a State indoor/outdoor pisol champ and will be able to help her a lot. I've got some additional feelers out for the bottom line on the .22 and as soon as I get a definitive answer I'll post a new topic. I feel that's the least I can do for all the help all of you've provided. So, watch this forum for a future posting. Thanks, again. Rome

February 25, 2000, 11:59 AM	#21
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Like the TV ad says, Pistol - $200, Range time with your daughter - priceless. Go for it! As to who made it, don't worry. Maybe you can get some info from the person selling it. Navy Arms has a web site at www.navyarms.com, with support information, address, etc. I can't seem to get the picture, but the Olympia pistols were built on a slightly modified Walther PP frame, not a P.38 frame. BTW, Rome, that .223 primer looks like the firing pin spring is weak. Jim Jim [This message has been edited by Jim Keenan (edited February 25, 2000).]

February 25, 2000, 03:11 PM	#22
fastforty Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 1999 Location: In a kornfield in kalifornia Posts: 1,161	Jim: That was my primer, after cycling a round in/out of the chamber. It has not been fired. Several ppl who've seen the photo (um, scan) think that it has been fired. (Some sort of optical illusion.) The boltface had a bur around the firing pin hole.

February 27, 2000, 08:57 AM	#23
fal308 Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 12, 1998 Location: Missouri Posts: 1,992	Saw one of these at a gunshow this past weekend. Though I can't appear to access your photo anymore (only the day you posted it) it appears to the the same firearm except with different grips. This one had no markings also save what you wrote about. The table holder said it was a Norinco. It was on the table for $225.