Home Defense ?

tripytrucker · October 5, 2005, 08:51 AM

I am looking to add a little extra home defense,but I can't decide between a carbine or shotgun.If a carbine what caliber? How effective are the handgun calibers 9mm .40? If a shotgun semi auto or pump?I don't plan to let them set in a corner and collect dust so they will be on the range a lot,fun factor would be a plus. Opinions?

Glenn E. Meyer · October 5, 2005, 08:57 AM

My question is whether you have experience shooting either and some reasonable training in tactics.

That is more important than the endless discussion of the shotgun is a guaranteed killer and racking will scare someone away.

Now let's see a few pages of shotgun bluster!!

Denny Hansen · October 5, 2005, 10:08 AM

Glenn's question hit the nail on the head. Self/home defense begins with a good mindset, and training is very important.

Everyone has a pet caliber, and the discussion about which one will or will not work the "best" has been beaten to death. Try checking out the ballistic forum over at Tactical Forums; Doctor Gary Roberts has posted some really good info there.

As for shotguns, use the search function and check the shotgun forum here at TFL. Your question has been asked, answered and debated many times.

Denny

leadcounsel · October 5, 2005, 10:32 AM

I think most would agree that the caliber discussion has been beat to death. All have their own merits and drawbacks, but any of the major shotguns or carbines will do the job just fine.

More importantly is your mindset and developing a good plan of home defense. Think of the realistic scenarios and how you will react. Most would also agree that it's best not to go searching/clearing your home if you know there is a burglar inside. It's better to just barricade yourself in a room, train the gun (whichever you chose) on the entry, and call 911 and wait for instructions.

Equally important is your training. A common quality pump shotgun will run you under $300. Semi auto shotguns are more. A quality HD carbine starts at $600+. Ammo for the carbine will likely be less expensive so you'll get more practice with it and carbines will generally penetrate common ballistic vests whereas shotguns may not. Count on any HD ammo penetrating several sheets of drywall.

Good luck w/ your choice.

XavierBreath · October 5, 2005, 10:58 AM

I think this thread has gotten off to an excellent start. As long as the chosen weapon is effective and reliable, pre-planning, tactics, and the ability and willingness to employ force are far more important.

That being said, I've done a pretty decent page on defensive shotguns if you decide to go that route.

tjhands · October 5, 2005, 11:18 AM

As a generic answer to your question, most experts would recommend a shotgun or other long gun for a primary home-defense gun. Some training and experience is vital, though, regardless of your choice.
A Mossberg 500 series shotgun can be had for just a few hundred dollars, and is high on the list of bargains.

RWK · October 5, 2005, 11:22 AM

Quote:

"I am looking to add a little extra home defense"

If this is truly your objective, you may wish to consider a good, decent sized dog, which combines alarm, defense and intimidation functions.

joecski · October 5, 2005, 11:33 AM

RWK...

Quote:

If this is truly your objective, you may wish to consider a good, decent sized dog, which combines alarm, defense and intimidation functions.

I would agree with this whole heartedly. Nothing is as intimidating as a big dog growling like you are lunch. I lived in a two bedroom apartment with my wife and son, and still managed to keep a Rottweiller with us. Granted, it was a lot of work, and walking, but well worth the effort. I have no doubt that the dog stopped me from being a victim at least twice while walking the streets with her, and who knows how many times she kept my apartment from being burglarized when nobody was home. We had a crime spree where several of my neighbors were broken into to, one while a neighbor slept on her couch during the day. I finally moved from the area when the drive-by shootings started.

Now I live in the suburbs and my Rottie has long passed. I have a new dog, a half breed Pit Bull, protecting the property. Nobody gets near my house, like onto my dirveway or even walking by, without the dog looking out the window and giving a little bark to let the person see him. He is nowhere near as intimidating as the Rottie was, but he doesn't need to be. As long as he does his job as a watchdog, I'll take care of the rest! Besides, if I had a choice between robbing a house with the dog, or another house without one, guess where I would go....

USP.40 · October 5, 2005, 12:33 PM

That's why I have 2 Rotties. Anybody concerned with home defense should consider a large dog. I think it's a good deterrent. I'll take my guys over ADT any day.

Glenn E. Meyer · October 5, 2005, 01:29 PM

Just to mention - I have an AR and a Winchester Defender - I decided that if I pick up a long arm, the AR comes first.

jacobtowne · October 5, 2005, 01:40 PM

I'd ask the following questions:
Where do you live?
How close is the nearest house to you?
Do you live alone?
This is important if you are considering a rifle, since a rifle bullet that misses the attacker can easily penetrate a wall and kill another family member or a neighbor.
JT

xXStarScreamXx · October 5, 2005, 01:43 PM

Remington Express Magnum 870 with the 18.5 inch barrel. Load it up with 00 or 04 buck and you have yourself a good HD weapon.

I agree about the dogs as well a good breed like a rotty, german shepard, or a pit bull will serve as an alarm, HD and friend. Guns dont make good friends, great listeners but horrible conversationalists.

C Philip · October 5, 2005, 01:59 PM

The dogs may be a good deterrent from some punks or thieves looking for an easy house to rob, but if someone really wants to get into your hose, they will just shoot the dogs. Once again, if someone really wants to get in, they probaly will. But my guess is the majority of houses are picked to be robbed just because they are easy targets, not because the thief knows exactly what he wants in that house and will get in whatever it takes. In this case, as long as the dog moves hour house from the easy pickings list to the medium security home, then that's worth it.

pax · October 5, 2005, 02:04 PM

The best home defense firearm is the one that you can get to immediately when you need it.

pax

tripytrucker · October 5, 2005, 06:15 PM

Thanks for the advice so far

Everyone has a pet caliber, and the discussion about which one will or will not work the "best" has been beaten to death
yes they do,but I asked if they were effective.Does the longer barrel add to a 9mm or .40's muzzle velocity and/or impact force?

I've done a pretty decent page on defensive shotguns if you decide to go that route.
thanks X

If this is truly your objective, you may wish to consider a good, decent sized dog,
no thanks dont like dogs

The best home defense firearm is the one that you can get to immediately when you need it.
10-4

BobK · October 5, 2005, 08:21 PM

Some very good replies so far. I recently wanted to bolster my home defense. So I found a slightly used 870 18.5" and it's fully loaded under my bed. If I am absolutely positive that someone is in my house, then the shotgun comes out. If I am not sure then I will "clear" the house with my Kimber and a backup gun if I have a chance to grab both. More importantly, first do what you can to keep the bad guys out or make it hard for them to get in. Second, have a home defense plan and discuss it with your wife if not the whole family.

jumbiejim · October 6, 2005, 12:51 AM

My CCW instructor who is also a sheriff's deputy uses a shotgun for home defense. He said that the shot will pretty much stay in the house and not go through walls to endanger the neighbors and your own family as a 45 would. He also said that the sound of a pump slide may be enough. Often times the bad guys turn out to be the 12 and 13 year old neighbor kids. Or even younger ones on a dare who don't realize the seriousness of their actions. The image of the BG on the shooting targets or in the movies isn't always an acurate picture in real life. Tragedy can be avoided. Know your target before you put your finger on the trigger. So I've got a Winchester Defender loaded up and ready to rack one in. I hope I never have to. He said leave some options for yourself until you fully understand the nature of the threat. A dog is a good idea too.
Jim

PATH · October 6, 2005, 02:12 AM

Mossberg 500. Rack it and yell the cops are on the way. Works in the 'burbs don't know about the boonies. Here in NYS it is so much easie rthan getting a handgun. If you need protection right away it is the best way to go here. IMHO!

xXStarScreamXx · October 6, 2005, 02:52 AM

You dont yell the cops are coming. You have to think of a cooler catch phrase.

IE:

Say hello to my little friend!
This is my BOOMSTICK!

etc etc.

stratus · October 6, 2005, 04:18 AM

For a shotgun, I'm voting for the boomstick line.

FirearmFan · October 6, 2005, 09:29 AM

I must admit, the Boomstick line is the best I have heard yet for a shotgun. Brings a smile to my face everytime I hear it.

jumbiejim · October 6, 2005, 11:12 AM

The town of Boring, Oregon usually considered a case of accuracy in naming, doesn't seem so placid after a stalwart citizen shot a man banging on his door for help. The victim had run to the gunman's house after crashing his car.

leadcounsel · October 6, 2005, 12:32 PM

Unless you have zero emotional attachment to your dogs and your bank account, I think it unwise to train them to be aggressive protectors of your home. Yes, train them to be alert and bark at unfamiliar people, but also train them to be friendly.

1) Barking dogs keep intruders out, it's a fact
2) However, a determined intruder will easily disable your dog and possibly kill it. He can give it treats or even treats laced with poison. He can give it treats and stab it in the throat or shoot it.
3) Due to the legal climate of dogowner lawsuits for vicious dogs in America, you could very well face criminal and civil prosecution if your dog bites, mauls, or kills an innocent, namely a child. The dog will also be destroyed.

If a criminal broke into my house, my dog might bark and might scare him away. However, he also might not bark and might go up to the BG and try to play with him. My dog is friendly and it would be unnecessary to kill him. Of course a BG may or may not, but my dog would give zero reason to be killed and only the most inhumane person would kill him because he's so friendly.

Barking and alert dogs = good idea
Vicious dogs = bad idea

gddyup · October 6, 2005, 12:43 PM

"Awright you primitive screwheads listen up!..You see this?.... This.... is my BOOMSTICK!"

I would consider a shotgun for a more open concept type of home where clearing corners and hallways was less of an issue. For my particular home, a colonial design, my handgun serves the purpose a little more easily. I've tried walking my home from a tactical point of view using my rifle and I could see the difficulty of doing it under a real-life scenario. Short hallways, many doorway openings into smaller areas, multiple entrances to certain rooms... pretty difficult to navigate at night, under stress, with this big ole' barrel hanging out in front of me that I need to get on target after clearing a corner. My XD9 is obviously much better suited for this role. My in-laws home however, with it's more contempory open colonial design and wide open room spaces, would make the shotgun a much more viable alternative. Few hallways, large open area rooms, and generally wider spaces where you wouldn't have to maneuver the barrel as much to get it on target if needed.

You can't argue the firepower of the shotgun/carbine over a handgun, but I think every one of those choices has it's benefits and shortfalls depending on what you're type of area you are trying to defend.

SomeKid · October 6, 2005, 01:07 PM

Consider a preventative method.

At the beginning of your driveway, insert a pike, spear up, into the ground.

Mount a fake head (Real looking!). Underneath, place a sign. "The last burglar I dealt with. Room for more if need be." (Have an empty spike next to it.)

At strategic points around the house place more spikes, and other body parts. At the most likely point a BG would consider breaking in, spear a fake...ehm...manhood piece.

Now, if you were a BG, would you break into THAT house?

October 5, 2005, 08:51 AM	#1
tripytrucker Member Join Date: September 27, 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 22	Home Defense ? I am looking to add a little extra home defense,but I can't decide between a carbine or shotgun.If a carbine what caliber? How effective are the handgun calibers 9mm .40? If a shotgun semi auto or pump?I don't plan to let them set in a corner and collect dust so they will be on the range a lot,fun factor would be a plus. Opinions?

October 5, 2005, 08:57 AM	#2
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	My question is whether you have experience shooting either and some reasonable training in tactics. That is more important than the endless discussion of the shotgun is a guaranteed killer and racking will scare someone away. Now let's see a few pages of shotgun bluster!! __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

October 5, 2005, 10:08 AM	#3
Denny Hansen Staff Emeritus Join Date: June 29, 2001 Location: Prescott Valley, AZ Posts: 2,422	Glenn's question hit the nail on the head. Self/home defense begins with a good mindset, and training is very important. Everyone has a pet caliber, and the discussion about which one will or will not work the "best" has been beaten to death. Try checking out the ballistic forum over at Tactical Forums; Doctor Gary Roberts has posted some really good info there. As for shotguns, use the search function and check the shotgun forum here at TFL. Your question has been asked, answered and debated many times. Denny __________________ S.W.A.T. Magazine Weapons, Training and Tactics for the Real World Join us at TFL or at AR15.com or on Facebook

October 5, 2005, 10:58 AM	#5
XavierBreath Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 2002 Location: North Louisiana Posts: 2,800	I think this thread has gotten off to an excellent start. As long as the chosen weapon is effective and reliable, pre-planning, tactics, and the ability and willingness to employ force are far more important. That being said, I've done a pretty decent page on defensive shotguns if you decide to go that route. __________________ Xavier's Blog

October 5, 2005, 11:18 AM	#6
tjhands Senior Member Join Date: January 20, 2005 Posts: 1,718	As a generic answer to your question, most experts would recommend a shotgun or other long gun for a primary home-defense gun. Some training and experience is vital, though, regardless of your choice. A Mossberg 500 series shotgun can be had for just a few hundred dollars, and is high on the list of bargains. __________________ "If the sole purpose of handguns is to kill people, then mine are all defective." - Uncle Ted Nugent

October 5, 2005, 10:32 AM	#4
leadcounsel Junior member Join Date: September 8, 2005 Location: Tacoma, WA Posts: 2,119	I think most would agree that the caliber discussion has been beat to death. All have their own merits and drawbacks, but any of the major shotguns or carbines will do the job just fine. More importantly is your mindset and developing a good plan of home defense. Think of the realistic scenarios and how you will react. Most would also agree that it's best not to go searching/clearing your home if you know there is a burglar inside. It's better to just barricade yourself in a room, train the gun (whichever you chose) on the entry, and call 911 and wait for instructions. Equally important is your training. A common quality pump shotgun will run you under $300. Semi auto shotguns are more. A quality HD carbine starts at $600+. Ammo for the carbine will likely be less expensive so you'll get more practice with it and carbines will generally penetrate common ballistic vests whereas shotguns may not. Count on any HD ammo penetrating several sheets of drywall. Good luck w/ your choice.

October 5, 2005, 12:33 PM	#9
USP.40 Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2005 Location: Commonwealth of Virginia Posts: 141	That's why I have 2 Rotties. Anybody concerned with home defense should consider a large dog. I think it's a good deterrent. I'll take my guys over ADT any day.

October 5, 2005, 01:29 PM	#10
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	Just to mention - I have an AR and a Winchester Defender - I decided that if I pick up a long arm, the AR comes first. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

October 5, 2005, 01:40 PM	#11
jacobtowne Senior Member Join Date: July 14, 2005 Location: New England Posts: 277	I'd ask the following questions: Where do you live? How close is the nearest house to you? Do you live alone? This is important if you are considering a rifle, since a rifle bullet that misses the attacker can easily penetrate a wall and kill another family member or a neighbor. JT

October 5, 2005, 01:43 PM	#12
xXStarScreamXx Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2005 Location: Nor*Cal 707 Posts: 353	Remington Express Magnum 870 with the 18.5 inch barrel. Load it up with 00 or 04 buck and you have yourself a good HD weapon. I agree about the dogs as well a good breed like a rotty, german shepard, or a pit bull will serve as an alarm, HD and friend. Guns dont make good friends, great listeners but horrible conversationalists. __________________ I still don't see why cannibalism is a crime.

October 5, 2005, 01:59 PM	#13
C Philip Senior Member Join Date: January 9, 2005 Location: USA Posts: 784	The dogs may be a good deterrent from some punks or thieves looking for an easy house to rob, but if someone really wants to get into your hose, they will just shoot the dogs. Once again, if someone really wants to get in, they probaly will. But my guess is the majority of houses are picked to be robbed just because they are easy targets, not because the thief knows exactly what he wants in that house and will get in whatever it takes. In this case, as long as the dog moves hour house from the easy pickings list to the medium security home, then that's worth it.

October 5, 2005, 02:04 PM	#14
pax Senior Member Join Date: May 16, 2000 Location: In a state of flux Posts: 7,520	The best home defense firearm is the one that you can get to immediately when you need it. pax __________________ Kathy Jackson My personal website: Cornered Cat

October 5, 2005, 06:15 PM	#15
tripytrucker Member Join Date: September 27, 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 22	Thanks for the advice so far Everyone has a pet caliber, and the discussion about which one will or will not work the "best" has been beaten to death yes they do,but I asked if they were effective.Does the longer barrel add to a 9mm or .40's muzzle velocity and/or impact force? I've done a pretty decent page on defensive shotguns if you decide to go that route. thanks X If this is truly your objective, you may wish to consider a good, decent sized dog, no thanks dont like dogs The best home defense firearm is the one that you can get to immediately when you need it. 10-4

October 5, 2005, 08:21 PM	#16
BobK Senior Member Join Date: June 19, 2005 Posts: 838	Some very good replies so far. I recently wanted to bolster my home defense. So I found a slightly used 870 18.5" and it's fully loaded under my bed. If I am absolutely positive that someone is in my house, then the shotgun comes out. If I am not sure then I will "clear" the house with my Kimber and a backup gun if I have a chance to grab both. More importantly, first do what you can to keep the bad guys out or make it hard for them to get in. Second, have a home defense plan and discuss it with your wife if not the whole family.

October 6, 2005, 12:51 AM	#17
jumbiejim Junior Member Join Date: October 3, 2005 Posts: 6	My CCW instructor who is also a sheriff's deputy uses a shotgun for home defense. He said that the shot will pretty much stay in the house and not go through walls to endanger the neighbors and your own family as a 45 would. He also said that the sound of a pump slide may be enough. Often times the bad guys turn out to be the 12 and 13 year old neighbor kids. Or even younger ones on a dare who don't realize the seriousness of their actions. The image of the BG on the shooting targets or in the movies isn't always an acurate picture in real life. Tragedy can be avoided. Know your target before you put your finger on the trigger. So I've got a Winchester Defender loaded up and ready to rack one in. I hope I never have to. He said leave some options for yourself until you fully understand the nature of the threat. A dog is a good idea too. Jim __________________ You don't know what you don't know.

October 6, 2005, 02:12 AM	#18
PATH Senior Member Join Date: September 10, 1999 Location: Rockland, NY Posts: 1,489	Mossberg 500. Rack it and yell the cops are on the way. Works in the 'burbs don't know about the boonies. Here in NYS it is so much easie rthan getting a handgun. If you need protection right away it is the best way to go here. IMHO! __________________ For sure it is an evil spite, and breaking to the heart, For Irishmen to watch a fight and not be taking part. -Robert Service 'How MacPherson Held The Floor'

October 6, 2005, 02:52 AM	#19
xXStarScreamXx Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2005 Location: Nor*Cal 707 Posts: 353	You dont yell the cops are coming. You have to think of a cooler catch phrase. IE: Say hello to my little friend! This is my BOOMSTICK! etc etc. __________________ I still don't see why cannibalism is a crime.

October 6, 2005, 04:18 AM	#20
stratus Senior Member Join Date: October 5, 2005 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 881	For a shotgun, I'm voting for the boomstick line.

October 6, 2005, 09:29 AM	#21
FirearmFan Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2005 Location: Philly Posts: 270	I must admit, the Boomstick line is the best I have heard yet for a shotgun. Brings a smile to my face everytime I hear it.

October 6, 2005, 11:12 AM	#22
jumbiejim Junior Member Join Date: October 3, 2005 Posts: 6	Here's one The town of Boring, Oregon usually considered a case of accuracy in naming, doesn't seem so placid after a stalwart citizen shot a man banging on his door for help. The victim had run to the gunman's house after crashing his car. __________________ You don't know what you don't know.

October 6, 2005, 12:32 PM	#23
leadcounsel Junior member Join Date: September 8, 2005 Location: Tacoma, WA Posts: 2,119	Unless you have zero emotional attachment to your dogs and your bank account, I think it unwise to train them to be aggressive protectors of your home. Yes, train them to be alert and bark at unfamiliar people, but also train them to be friendly. 1) Barking dogs keep intruders out, it's a fact 2) However, a determined intruder will easily disable your dog and possibly kill it. He can give it treats or even treats laced with poison. He can give it treats and stab it in the throat or shoot it. 3) Due to the legal climate of dogowner lawsuits for vicious dogs in America, you could very well face criminal and civil prosecution if your dog bites, mauls, or kills an innocent, namely a child. The dog will also be destroyed. If a criminal broke into my house, my dog might bark and might scare him away. However, he also might not bark and might go up to the BG and try to play with him. My dog is friendly and it would be unnecessary to kill him. Of course a BG may or may not, but my dog would give zero reason to be killed and only the most inhumane person would kill him because he's so friendly. Barking and alert dogs = good idea Vicious dogs = bad idea

October 6, 2005, 12:43 PM	#24
gddyup Senior Member Join Date: July 22, 2005 Location: Derry, NH Posts: 219	"Awright you primitive screwheads listen up!..You see this?.... This.... is my BOOMSTICK!" I would consider a shotgun for a more open concept type of home where clearing corners and hallways was less of an issue. For my particular home, a colonial design, my handgun serves the purpose a little more easily. I've tried walking my home from a tactical point of view using my rifle and I could see the difficulty of doing it under a real-life scenario. Short hallways, many doorway openings into smaller areas, multiple entrances to certain rooms... pretty difficult to navigate at night, under stress, with this big ole' barrel hanging out in front of me that I need to get on target after clearing a corner. My XD9 is obviously much better suited for this role. My in-laws home however, with it's more contempory open colonial design and wide open room spaces, would make the shotgun a much more viable alternative. Few hallways, large open area rooms, and generally wider spaces where you wouldn't have to maneuver the barrel as much to get it on target if needed. You can't argue the firepower of the shotgun/carbine over a handgun, but I think every one of those choices has it's benefits and shortfalls depending on what you're type of area you are trying to defend. __________________ Firefighter/EMT - Currently teamed on Engine 1... I always get to play with my Knob! "Good judgement comes from experience and experience comes from poor judgement" - Unknown. "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." - Robert A. Heinlein

October 6, 2005, 01:07 PM	#25
SomeKid Junior member Join Date: July 11, 2005 Location: Tennessee Posts: 107	Consider a preventative method. At the beginning of your driveway, insert a pike, spear up, into the ground. Mount a fake head (Real looking!). Underneath, place a sign. "The last burglar I dealt with. Room for more if need be." (Have an empty spike next to it.) At strategic points around the house place more spikes, and other body parts. At the most likely point a BG would consider breaking in, spear a fake...ehm...manhood piece. Now, if you were a BG, would you break into THAT house?