Head space on a barrel switch - Page 2

Bill Daniel · March 10, 2012, 09:13 PM

F. Guffey thanks. I appreciate your response. I don't understand it but I do appreciate it none the less.
Bill Daniel

F. Guffey · March 11, 2012, 05:38 PM

“Why do you not set the head space on the go gauge only? AGI recommends using tape to give the head space 0.002 to 0.004 inch excess over the go gauge.
Thanks,

Bill Daniel”

“I appreciate your response. I don't understand it but I do appreciate it none the less”

No one has a responsibility and or is obligated to make an attempt to try to understand.

http://www.americangunsmith.com/

You mentioned AGI, on the outside chance there are some reading through this form that have no clue what AGI stands for and again (on the outside chance you are talking about American Gunsmithing Institute), I posted a link.

As to their recommendation to add tape to the rear of the gage to lengthen the gage, .002 to .004, makes no sense, the go-gage is longer from the head of the gage to the shoulder of the gage than the minimum length case, meaning if we are talking about a 30/06 a go-gage length chamber presents a head space of .005 to the minimum length/full length sized case. If we are talking about (for example) the 30/06, adding .004 thousands to the length of the gage when reaming the chamber, the added .004 would results in a chamber, when measured. would be a no go-gage length chamber.

Again, I do not use head space gages, I do not shoot head space gages. Wilson Barrel Co. provides instruction, what happens when a AGI educated smith receives a barrel and instruction from Wilson and finds Wilson gives two choices, neither agrees with the institute of gunsmithing.

The AGI also says check often, no one knows where the are or how far they have to go to finish the chamber, it is possible to know, in thousands, the length of the chamber even if it is a short chamber (and we all? know a go-gage will not chamber/allow the bolt to close in a short chamber unless it is the same length as a minimum length case), and I say there is no excuse for not knowing the length of the chamber from start to finish, they give the smith an excuse with their ‘qualifying statement “NO ONE KNOWS”, that makes me want to break into “WHO KNOWS WHAT EVIL LURKS IN THE MIND etc..), we all know the answer, the shadow do.

Thanks for asking?

F. Guffey

F. Guffey · March 11, 2012, 11:05 PM

forgive,

should be “neither agrees with with the institute of gunsmithing”

not: "neither aggregating with the institute of gunsmithing"

F. Guffey

**Unclenick** · March 12, 2012, 09:06 AM

I really don't know what AGI is up to with the tape, either. I've never heard of doing that. My first speculation, mentioned earlier, is that they are aiming for the middle of the headspace range for feed reliability. The only other thought I had was regarding the caution Hatcher had about closing bolts on headspace gauges. He points out that many bolts are perfectly capable of camming hard enough to stretch the chamber several thousandths with a headspace gauge inside, rather than refusing to close. So perhaps AGI is also trying to make an allowance for somewhat ham fisted new practitioners. A little practice measuring with a micrometer gives you appreciation of the need for feather light contact in accurate measuring. You simply have to develop a feel for it. But I like my first speculation on AGI's purposes better.

BTW, the light touch is why one is normally advised to strip a bolt before trying to use a headspace gauge. Even if you have an ejector notch in the gauge, spring pressure from the cocking mechanism can interfere with how sensitively you can detect first contact between the gauge and chamber.

Mr. Guffey is correct that you can either get other chamber dimensions to deduce effective headspace from or you can ignore exact headspace if you are going to load only cases fireformed to your chamber and set back only as needed to function reliably. Just don't fire commercial or military loads in an undersized chamber, as that increases pressure. If in doubt, put a squib load together and fire it to see how the case length comes out.

Hatcher reported on some experiments where .30-06 headspace was intentionally extended 0.050" long with a special reamer, and it didn't damage the brass or fail to shoot well enough for military purposes. The standard new rounds going into the long chamber just headspaced on the extractor hook and blew their shoulders forward when they fired. Lots of wildcats have been made that way. The Ackley Improved approach is probably best known among those that will allow you to shoot the parent cartridges directly without first knocking the charge down or using some kind of blank load to form the cases. The only thing is, you then want to resize for your cases for that big chamber or the brass will thin out at the pressure ring and start giving you head separations in relatively few reloads. Also, accuracy won't be best if the case rattles too loosely in the chamber.

There are lots of ways to work out there. Ultimately, the main thing is to keep in mind what your objectives are and to work out how to get yourself there and prove to yourself that you've gotten there. Headspace gauges are a conventional approach and are also used in manufacturing to meet SAAMI specs, but it's worth noting that SAAMI is oriented toward manufacturing and that an individual with time and different tools and a bit of ingenuity can find lots of workarounds for conventional methods.

Bill Daniel · March 12, 2012, 08:39 PM

Mr. Guffey, Unclenick and any others. This particular American Gunsmithing Institute video was for the Savage 110/10 rifle. Could the tape issue be related to the "floating" lugs on a Savage bolt. I noticed the same tape on the Go gauge advice on the Savage Shooters forum that was credited to Savage Inc. Whether it actually was or some one else who watched the same video as I did gave credit to the folks at Savage themselves.

Mr. Guffey on re-reading my post response to you I sounded like an ungreatfull smart a--. In reality I just don't know enough to keep up with your posts. I perceive that you are either a machinist by trade or have been working on guns for a long time. On the otherhand I only know- what I think I overheard from "some guy" who sounded like he knew about which he was talking, i.e. not much . In any event I appologize for the tone of my response.
Bill Daniel

F. Guffey · March 13, 2012, 07:18 AM

Unclenick,Hatcher did not start out with his test to test extractors, he started out to determine a preconceived notion a case would come apart with excessive head space, his experiment was about deterring the amount of head space the case would tolerate. he was correct, a case fired in a chamber with .050 to .080 thousandths will suffer case head separation, Hatcher’s experiment failed because of the process of selection.

Hatcher was unaware the case shortened when fired in his new creation, the 30/06 Hatcher Modified, had he measured the length before and after and found the case did not shorten he would have know his experiment was working and all he had to do was advance the reamer to increase the length of the chamber, fire and then look for the bright ring around the case ahead of the case head.

F. Guffey

F. Guffey · March 13, 2012, 08:48 AM

Bill Daniel, forgive, I have short lists, my short list of people I will loan a book to has two names, Norm Hitzges and a former minister.

On the Internet, my short list of members on different forums that are world class is not that short, but, at the top is Unclenick, in your last post you showed more class than I have seen in a while, so I will add you to my list of members with class. That puts you in good company, never want to forget to tell William T. Watts how much he is appreciated.

F. Guffey

**Unclenick** · March 14, 2012, 12:14 PM

Thank you Mr. Guffey. May I return the compliment.

Bill,

I can still only speculate on what the tape objective is. If the GO gauge fits, so will an in-spec cartridge, and that's the goal. Increasing that headspace by two thousandths puts you in the middle of the SAAMI new chamber spec range for .308 Win (1.630"-1.634"), and that's probably not a bad strategy for a manufacturer of new guns, as it gives employees a couple of thousandths of error wiggle room either way. Thus, the gal who sets the barrels up could be a little heavy handed one day when she's mad at her husband and or a little light another day when she's thinking ahead to her sister's wedding, and the guns still come out within spec. Sometimes it's worth remembering that SAAMI is a manufacturer's association and not a custom gunsmithing association, and that the problems manufacturers have are often special to the manufacturing environment.

Bill Daniel · March 15, 2012, 11:01 AM

Thanks again Unclenick and F.Guffey!
Bill

Harry Bonar · March 16, 2012, 07:40 PM

Sirs;
LISTEN TO UNCLENICK!
Harry B.

March 10, 2012, 09:13 PM	#26
Bill Daniel Senior Member Join Date: February 10, 2000 Location: Bowling Green, KY. Posts: 518	Headspace on a barrel switch F. Guffey thanks. I appreciate your response. I don't understand it but I do appreciate it none the less. Bill Daniel __________________ Prosecute criminals to the fullest extent of the law and their weapons will become harmless. "Let us speak courteously, deal fairly, and keep ourselves armed and ready." Theodore Roosevelt 1903

March 11, 2012, 05:38 PM	#27
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	“Why do you not set the head space on the go gauge only? AGI recommends using tape to give the head space 0.002 to 0.004 inch excess over the go gauge. Thanks, Bill Daniel” “I appreciate your response. I don't understand it but I do appreciate it none the less” No one has a responsibility and or is obligated to make an attempt to try to understand. http://www.americangunsmith.com/ You mentioned AGI, on the outside chance there are some reading through this form that have no clue what AGI stands for and again (on the outside chance you are talking about American Gunsmithing Institute), I posted a link. As to their recommendation to add tape to the rear of the gage to lengthen the gage, .002 to .004, makes no sense, the go-gage is longer from the head of the gage to the shoulder of the gage than the minimum length case, meaning if we are talking about a 30/06 a go-gage length chamber presents a head space of .005 to the minimum length/full length sized case. If we are talking about (for example) the 30/06, adding .004 thousands to the length of the gage when reaming the chamber, the added .004 would results in a chamber, when measured. would be a no go-gage length chamber. Again, I do not use head space gages, I do not shoot head space gages. Wilson Barrel Co. provides instruction, what happens when a AGI educated smith receives a barrel and instruction from Wilson and finds Wilson gives two choices, neither agrees with the institute of gunsmithing. The AGI also says check often, no one knows where the are or how far they have to go to finish the chamber, it is possible to know, in thousands, the length of the chamber even if it is a short chamber (and we all? know a go-gage will not chamber/allow the bolt to close in a short chamber unless it is the same length as a minimum length case), and I say there is no excuse for not knowing the length of the chamber from start to finish, they give the smith an excuse with their ‘qualifying statement “NO ONE KNOWS”, that makes me want to break into “WHO KNOWS WHAT EVIL LURKS IN THE MIND etc..), we all know the answer, the shadow do. Thanks for asking? F. Guffey Last edited by F. Guffey; March 13, 2012 at 08:51 AM.

March 11, 2012, 11:05 PM	#28
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	forgive, should be “neither agrees with with the institute of gunsmithing” not: "neither aggregating with the institute of gunsmithing" F. Guffey Last edited by F. Guffey; March 13, 2012 at 08:52 AM.

March 12, 2012, 09:06 AM	#29
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	I really don't know what AGI is up to with the tape, either. I've never heard of doing that. My first speculation, mentioned earlier, is that they are aiming for the middle of the headspace range for feed reliability. The only other thought I had was regarding the caution Hatcher had about closing bolts on headspace gauges. He points out that many bolts are perfectly capable of camming hard enough to stretch the chamber several thousandths with a headspace gauge inside, rather than refusing to close. So perhaps AGI is also trying to make an allowance for somewhat ham fisted new practitioners. A little practice measuring with a micrometer gives you appreciation of the need for feather light contact in accurate measuring. You simply have to develop a feel for it. But I like my first speculation on AGI's purposes better. BTW, the light touch is why one is normally advised to strip a bolt before trying to use a headspace gauge. Even if you have an ejector notch in the gauge, spring pressure from the cocking mechanism can interfere with how sensitively you can detect first contact between the gauge and chamber. Mr. Guffey is correct that you can either get other chamber dimensions to deduce effective headspace from or you can ignore exact headspace if you are going to load only cases fireformed to your chamber and set back only as needed to function reliably. Just don't fire commercial or military loads in an undersized chamber, as that increases pressure. If in doubt, put a squib load together and fire it to see how the case length comes out. Hatcher reported on some experiments where .30-06 headspace was intentionally extended 0.050" long with a special reamer, and it didn't damage the brass or fail to shoot well enough for military purposes. The standard new rounds going into the long chamber just headspaced on the extractor hook and blew their shoulders forward when they fired. Lots of wildcats have been made that way. The Ackley Improved approach is probably best known among those that will allow you to shoot the parent cartridges directly without first knocking the charge down or using some kind of blank load to form the cases. The only thing is, you then want to resize for your cases for that big chamber or the brass will thin out at the pressure ring and start giving you head separations in relatively few reloads. Also, accuracy won't be best if the case rattles too loosely in the chamber. There are lots of ways to work out there. Ultimately, the main thing is to keep in mind what your objectives are and to work out how to get yourself there and prove to yourself that you've gotten there. Headspace gauges are a conventional approach and are also used in manufacturing to meet SAAMI specs, but it's worth noting that SAAMI is oriented toward manufacturing and that an individual with time and different tools and a bit of ingenuity can find lots of workarounds for conventional methods. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle Last edited by Unclenick; March 12, 2012 at 09:11 AM.

March 12, 2012, 08:39 PM	#30
Bill Daniel Senior Member Join Date: February 10, 2000 Location: Bowling Green, KY. Posts: 518	Headspace on a barrel switch Mr. Guffey, Unclenick and any others. This particular American Gunsmithing Institute video was for the Savage 110/10 rifle. Could the tape issue be related to the "floating" lugs on a Savage bolt. I noticed the same tape on the Go gauge advice on the Savage Shooters forum that was credited to Savage Inc. Whether it actually was or some one else who watched the same video as I did gave credit to the folks at Savage themselves. Mr. Guffey on re-reading my post response to you I sounded like an ungreatfull smart a--. In reality I just don't know enough to keep up with your posts. I perceive that you are either a machinist by trade or have been working on guns for a long time. On the otherhand I only know- what I think I overheard from "some guy" who sounded like he knew about which he was talking, i.e. not much . In any event I appologize for the tone of my response. Bill Daniel __________________ Prosecute criminals to the fullest extent of the law and their weapons will become harmless. "Let us speak courteously, deal fairly, and keep ourselves armed and ready." Theodore Roosevelt 1903

March 13, 2012, 07:18 AM	#31
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	Unclenick,Hatcher did not start out with his test to test extractors, he started out to determine a preconceived notion a case would come apart with excessive head space, his experiment was about deterring the amount of head space the case would tolerate. he was correct, a case fired in a chamber with .050 to .080 thousandths will suffer case head separation, Hatcher’s experiment failed because of the process of selection. Hatcher was unaware the case shortened when fired in his new creation, the 30/06 Hatcher Modified, had he measured the length before and after and found the case did not shorten he would have know his experiment was working and all he had to do was advance the reamer to increase the length of the chamber, fire and then look for the bright ring around the case ahead of the case head. F. Guffey Last edited by F. Guffey; March 13, 2012 at 08:19 AM. Reason: correct thousands to thousandths

March 13, 2012, 08:48 AM	#32
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	Bill Daniel, forgive, I have short lists, my short list of people I will loan a book to has two names, Norm Hitzges and a former minister. On the Internet, my short list of members on different forums that are world class is not that short, but, at the top is Unclenick, in your last post you showed more class than I have seen in a while, so I will add you to my list of members with class. That puts you in good company, never want to forget to tell William T. Watts how much he is appreciated. F. Guffey

March 14, 2012, 12:14 PM	#33
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	Thank you Mr. Guffey. May I return the compliment. Bill, I can still only speculate on what the tape objective is. If the GO gauge fits, so will an in-spec cartridge, and that's the goal. Increasing that headspace by two thousandths puts you in the middle of the SAAMI new chamber spec range for .308 Win (1.630"-1.634"), and that's probably not a bad strategy for a manufacturer of new guns, as it gives employees a couple of thousandths of error wiggle room either way. Thus, the gal who sets the barrels up could be a little heavy handed one day when she's mad at her husband and or a little light another day when she's thinking ahead to her sister's wedding, and the guns still come out within spec. Sometimes it's worth remembering that SAAMI is a manufacturer's association and not a custom gunsmithing association, and that the problems manufacturers have are often special to the manufacturing environment. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle Last edited by Unclenick; March 14, 2012 at 12:25 PM.

March 15, 2012, 11:01 AM	#34
Bill Daniel Senior Member Join Date: February 10, 2000 Location: Bowling Green, KY. Posts: 518	Headspace on a barrel switch Thanks again Unclenick and F.Guffey! Bill __________________ Prosecute criminals to the fullest extent of the law and their weapons will become harmless. "Let us speak courteously, deal fairly, and keep ourselves armed and ready." Theodore Roosevelt 1903

March 16, 2012, 07:40 PM	#35
Harry Bonar Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2004 Location: In the Vincent, Ohio general area. Posts: 1,804	headspace Sirs; LISTEN TO UNCLENICK! Harry B.