Woman Kills Shower Attacker

[Glenn E. Meyer]

A short little sentence. Denying the existence of acute stress disorders or PTSD, suggestions to simply man up, etc. are proclamations of your ignorance.

[lawnboy]

Zombie horses now?

[jimbob86]

A short little sentence. Denying the existence of acute stress disorders or PTSD, suggestions to simply man up, etc. are proclamations of your ignorance.

I don't deny that PTSD exists..... hell, I did not sleep like a baby after I came back from the desert..... What I am saying is that if Society would condone such acts, instead of stressing how terrible the event was, and celebrating the victimhood of "victims", then these things would be easier to recover from. Instead of affirming support for what is logically a correct action, Society seems to want to reward being a victim.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: You want more of a behavior, reward it. You want less of a behavior, stress how bad it is, and what an ordeal it is to deal with.

[JohnKSa]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: You want more of a behavior, reward it. You want less of a behavior, stress how bad it is, and what an ordeal it is to deal with.

Yes and no.

Sure, rewarding a behavior will help to deal with it somewhat. However, if that were the whole story, returning WWII vets would have not had issues with PTSD. They were certainly rewarded, venerated even, for what they did in defeating the enemy and killing bad guys. They had a better time of if than the boys coming back from Vietnam, but they certainly weren't free of the effects of PTSD.

Given that many will find it an ordeal no matter what is stressed or rewarded, it's best to at least acknowledge that many do have a lot of difficulty dealing with it and encourage them to seek help if they start to show symptoms.

[jimbob86]

Sure, rewarding a behavior will help to deal with it somewhat.

They had a better time of if than the boys coming back from Vietnam,

So why on earth does Society not do the thing that helps, and stop doing that which makes things worse?

There are no contradictions. When you are confronted with a contradiction, check your premises. You will find one of them is wrong.

I would submit that there are elements of Society that actively discourage people taking care of themselves.

[JohnKSa]

So why on earth does Society not do the thing that helps, and stop doing that which makes things worse?

As a general question that's a bigger can of worms than we can deal with here. As a specific question, I believe that we have done a LOT of "things that help" in terms of dealing with PTSD. A big part of it was getting everyone to admit it actually existed and that it wasn't just a character issue in the people suffering from it. That step took decades, or centuries, depending on how you look at it.

Like any serious problem, society currently deals with it in an imperfect manner. Given that humans are involved that's not going to change. That said, I think it would be very difficult to argue that things haven't improved dramatically over the last couple of decades in terms of recognizing and treating PTSD.

I would submit that there are elements of Society that actively discourage people taking care of themselves.

Sure there are. Again, that's a much bigger can of worms than is really appropriate for discussion here.

As it relates to this specific topic, trying to get folks to take care of themselves starts with defining the problem and the methods for dealing with it. Denying that it's a serious issue, making light of it, suggesting that it's nothing more than the effects of "peer pressure" as opposed to a clinical condition that can destroy lives is the exact opposite of trying to encourage people to take care of themselves.

[Kyo]

on a relevant note, I live less than half a mile from that location. people that live around me have been broken into. I am glad i have a dog and a weapon to protect myself with. every time i read things like this, I feel more and more justified in the acquisition of my weapon, training and dog

[Glenn E. Meyer]

If you know this area, one interesting fact is that folks left on their own to take care of themselves, tend to self-medicate with alcohol or other substances.

This certainly a good thing as it builds self-reliance and character. It aids in family relationships and work performance.

I think some folks need to drop their expounding of some philosophical tantrum about how we don't have their ideal tough guy society - gleaned from a gun writer or two, movies, etc. - and just face the reality of such problems. I sense in some a preventive denial - as if they are worried they might face some sort of disorder and that weakens their self-image as a gunslinger. One major point to get over is that such things happen to strong people and help is needed.

That might seem a strong or insulting statement but that's my viewpoint. The evidence is clear and if you don't accept it on the grounds that a gunwriter says, blah, blah - I have to suspect other motivations.

[lawnboy]

If you know this area, one interesting fact is that folks left on their own to take care of themselves, tend to self-medicate with alcohol or other substances.

This certainly a good thing as it builds self-reliance and character. It aids in family relationships and work performance.

I think some folks need to drop their expounding of some philosophical tantrum about how we don't have their ideal tough guy society - gleaned from a gun writer or two, movies, etc. - and just face the reality of such problems. I sense in some a preventive denial - as if they are worried they might face some sort of disorder and that weakens their self-image as a gunslinger. One major point to get over is that such things happen to strong people and help is needed.

That might seem a strong or insulting statement but that's my viewpoint. The evidence is clear and if you don't accept it on the grounds that a gunwriter says, blah, blah - I have to suspect other motivations.

This is getting annoying.

Most of us who have pointed out that all people involved in shootings, whether in war or in civilian life do not always wind up on medication (self administered or otherwise) or on a psychiatrists couch do not discount the fact that some (even most) people have difficulty adjusting. We merely point out that a different reaction is possible and that there are people right here on TFL who have made the adjustments required in the aftermath of combat and police or self defense shootings with little difficulty. I'm not one of those people, but I have read their posts and so have you.

I sense in you a preventative denial. Why is it so difficult for you to accept the statements of those who have gone thru the situation and have reported little emotional difficulty? Perhaps I'm not reading your posts closely enough but it seems to me you are straying dangerously close to engaging in the same behavior you are accusing others of.

This horse was supposed to be well and truly dead. I rejoin the crew beating it with great regret.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Lawnboy - you are continually missing the point. You deliberately misinterpret what I've said repeatedly. Thus you don't contribute to the conversation.

Reread what I said, see if you get it this time. I doubt it.

PS - I forgot to mention that an avoidant copying style is one of the biggest predictors for the development of PTSD after a significant critical incident.

Some studies report it puils 41% of the variance.

Thus, my disdain for those in denial that it exists or suggestions that one simply " man-up" because a gun writer said so.

And again for the final exam - not everyone gets it, nor is that claimed, nor is it the case that if you don't, you have a different problem like sociopathy.

The point is that stress disorders do occur and the armed citizen, military, police, etc. should be aware of such and the consequences. So if the symptoms appear 'manning up' may not cut it.

Is that clear enough?

[lawnboy]

Lawnboy - you are continually missing the point. You deliberately misinterpret what I've said repeatedly. Thus you don't contribute to the conversation.

And now you've done it again. Requiring others to sit up straight and chirp agreement with you is neither conversation or discussion. I have no desire to contribute in that way. Guilty as charged.

Reread what I said, see if you get it this time. I doubt it

In all my posts I've never accused you of being stupid or dense. I've disagreed with you and challenged your ideas but never your brain power. For the record, I do understand what you're saying. I just think that like most of psychological thought it passes over a large chunk of observed reality. It is a piece of the picture. Not the whole picture. If you are willing to limit your thinking to that and not look further then you are surely free to do so.

PS - I forgot to mention that an avoidant copying style is one of the biggest predictors for the development of PTSD after a significant critical incident.

Some studies report it puils 41% of the variance.

I have no idea what the meaning or point of that is. Why not just say what you mean?

Thus, my disdain for those in denial that it exists or suggestions that one simply " man-up" because a gun writer said so.

And again for the final exam - not everyone gets it, nor is that claimed, nor is it the case that if you don't, you have a different problem like sociopathy.

The point is that stress disorders do occur and the armed citizen, military, police, etc. should be aware of such and the consequences. So if the symptoms appear 'manning up' may not cut it

If you had led with this we'd have no ground to argue on. That's why this is all so stupid. Why not just point that out when somebody posts the "man up" solution and leave it at that? A person may be able to "man up" or they may not. That covers the whole topic and shuts the door. Hoping to be and attempting to prepare to be one who "man's up" doesn't deny the alternative exists, or that you may not "man up" yourself (or myself, or his-self or her-self. Just so we're clear).

[markj]

Gosh, not everyone that kills another suffers from PTSD, some do, many do. Many do not. Help those that accept help. it is all you can do.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Not to be obscure but when one decides to debate scientific findings and claiming something has this or that effect or lack of - it's not a bad thing to understand how it is determined. Percent explained variance is a statistical concept of how much a factor contributes to a prediction.

I don't debate metallurgy of bullets as I'm not a metallurgist.

But I've said my piece and been consistent through the whole argument. Let the debate stand as is for my part.

[Shane Tuttle]

With all of the sophisticated discussions that make my head hurt, I have to go back to the theory of Occam's Razor...

Originally Posted by lawnboy

Why would she feel any guilt? She oughta feel the exhilaration of righteous victory.

I can't help but think why NOT? I don't think it should have been questioned in the first place. And that's why I can see Glenn and others trying to reason with the response...to no avail.

Knowing Glenn's background, my instincts tell me to take heed in his findings and weigh them heavily when forming my own opinion.

[Art Eatman]

An Olde Phart's opinion: "Man up" is one of the more foolish and arrogant notions that I've run across in many and many a decade. It's foolish to believe that all men (or women) should have identical reactions to bad-news events. The arrogance is on the part of the believer who thinks the phrase is meaningful, believing that he and only he is qualified to sit in judgement as to how folks should react.

I bought my present land from a retired Green Beret M/Sgt who was highly decorated. MAC/SOG. Two Silver Stars, among other things. He'd wake up from nightmares, screaming. Flashbacks to dealing with napalmed villages. Alcoholic...

My father? D-Day and the ensuing tourism in France. Came back, went back to deer hunting. Rose high in his engineering profession. His biggest complaint was that cigars were hard come by, and battlefields don't smell good; rotting meat.

People are different. Leave it at that.

[Capt. Charlie]

People are different. Leave it at that.

And those two short sentences sums up this whole argument nicely.

This has been an interesting thread, but I think that just about everything that can be said, has been said.

Oh, and before I close this, there's something some of you should know about Glenn. Dr. Meyer is a professor of psychology at a well-known Texas university, and is a published authority on.... you guessed it, PTSD .

Closed.