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Old July 19, 2020, 08:03 PM   #26
JohnKSa
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Groups between 1/4 and 1/5 MOA at 900 yards using issue .50BMG machinegun ammunition. Hmmmm...

I'd be surprised to find that GI issue .50BMG ammo from that era would shoot better than 1.5-2MOA regardless of what it was fired through.
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Old July 19, 2020, 11:50 PM   #27
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I was trained at Grafenwoehr in the Armorer Class there and as part of it we learned to work on them including removing the butterfly handles and installing a pistol grip and trigger to make it a sniper rifle.
Interesting, I was at Graf 77-78 (FSC 498th SupportBn 2nd AD) so about a decade or so behind you. Was a Small Arms Repairman (45B20) trained at APG MD, a bit higher level than "armorer".

Never heard of a pistol grip for the M2, so, either something the Army dropped before my time, or possibly a local made thing at the unit level.

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The reason he could mount a starlight scope on it was that everyone of the M-2s we had had a scope mount plate attached to the cover and we had a couple of scopes in the Arms room in our Headquarters Company to use them as sniper rifles.
I saw a lot, if not most M2HBs with the cam lever scope base. It's actually part of the rear sight base. Not a WWII item, it came later with the first gen Starlight scopes. Lots of units never got the scopes but lots of M2s were fitted with the new sights with the mount. Its only 3 screws, a simple swap with the WWII era sight assy.

To the best of my knowledge no M2 .50s were mounted on Hueys during the VietNam era. Door gunners had an M60 though sometimes the M60D with the apade grips. Gunships had a pair of M60s in fixed mounts on each side, usually dispensing with the door gun, but any variation is possible, GIs can be inventive.
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Old July 20, 2020, 01:16 AM   #28
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The only helicopter that I know of that had .50's mounted on it was the ACH-47A. These were a test program and only a few were made to test in Vietnam.

The ACH-47A's were attack helicopters, they had 40mm grenade launchers on the nose, 2.75 rocket launchers on the side and either M60's or M2's on the side doors/windows.
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Old July 20, 2020, 07:29 AM   #29
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I knew you were jerking my chain , made me laugh. The 50 was the king of the jungle as far as I'm concerned, no place to hide . We had gun trucks with a 50 and 60's supporting convoys , I saw aduce an ahalf with a quad 50 , looked like something you would see on a ship . Never road on one but sure would quiet things down . Never saw a ma on a gunship but I'm sure it could be done.. Stay Well.

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Old July 20, 2020, 02:41 PM   #30
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Other nations had their 13mm and 12.7mm guns, but their use was mostly as aircraft guns, while we used our .50 everywhere!
I recall a quote from somewhere to the effect that a B17 ball turret gunner was surrounded by ammunition that was worth more than he made in a year.
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Old July 20, 2020, 08:00 PM   #31
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I just so happened M2s and 40mms were my specialty , Duster Quads. 1/44th & 4/60th RVn.M2 with brand new barrel, shovel handles and optic sight was lucky to do 12” at 100yds off solid mount. I never saw the sniper trigger unit outside of training in the states. It was either shovel handles or solenoids, for us. It’s not something every unit would have, its special issue. Starlights were even harder to come by. I still have my M2 gauges that I carried with my dog tags. No Go & Go gauge and feeler gauge for firing solenoids in Quad mount. We were on a hill top and blew a side door on the 40s. A team from Ord, came to repair gun. Warrant officer was head man. When done they had to use bore sight set to regulate guns. They did and then shot a game of splash with the 40s. Only on a water Buf not a duck. They scored direct hit and hauled ass. We caught the backlash from it and our X0 had to come from HQ and pay dinks damages.
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Old July 23, 2020, 05:57 PM   #32
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I have a friend who was a waist gunner on choppers in Vietnam.
No waist gunners in helicopters. We had door gunners or window gunners, but no waist gunners. That's a WW2 thing on bombers.
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Great guy but sometimes exaggerates a story for effect!
You know the difference between fairy tales and war stories, right? Fairy tales start out "once upon a time", war stories start out "now this ain't no ____". 2" at 900 yds? Nope. Stand behind a M2 when she's firing and you'll see what I mean. It's called a "cone of fire" for a reason.
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Old July 23, 2020, 07:39 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by JohnKSa View Post
Groups between 1/4 and 1/5 MOA at 900 yards using issue .50BMG machinegun ammunition. Hmmmm...

I'd be surprised to find that GI issue .50BMG ammo from that era would shoot better than 1.5-2MOA regardless of what it was fired through.
My understanding is .50 BMG ball ammo is intentionally NOT precision ammo.

Shooting ball out of 'match' guns (in particular that are on sleds / locked down) tends to prove that.

What that creates is a most lethal shotgun with a 1+ mile effective range.
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Old July 23, 2020, 08:40 PM   #34
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catch

Did anybody catch that in post #3, the OP stated that he thought the 2 MOA claim was in regards to a personally owned weapon the acquaintance had AFTER Vietnam, not as a door gunner?

But the thread has made interesting reading, none the less.
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Old July 23, 2020, 08:50 PM   #35
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Carlos Hathcock did hit an NVA at 2300 yards using an M2-weight about 81 pounds-mounted on the tripod-40 pounds-with a 10x Unertl scope from a hilltop. So he had a securely mounted weapon with a clear field of fire. Given that probably all the M2s used in Vietnam had probably seen service in WWII and Korea, and their barrels were probably not checked for wear and erosion.....
I have heard the "they could use ours...."regarding the mortars, I rather doubt their designers thought about that. The one I heard was you could fire a 5.56 round out of an AK-with what sort of accuracy ?
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Old July 23, 2020, 10:40 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by SIGSHR View Post
...

The one I heard was you could fire a 5.56 round out of an AK-with what sort of accuracy ?
Well that would be an interesting shot, and accurate out to a few inches. But...
Half the area of a 7.62 barrel would be empty as a 5.56 bounced along the barrel with most of the gas escaping...
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