Guns Of The Mountain Men

[thallub]

Thanks ratshooter.

[4V50 Gary]

Countless Eastern gunsmiths made big bore, half stocked rifles. If the customer wants it, you make it (or starve).

[Old Stony]

I would probably have a hard time carrying a rifle such as my full stock Hawken on a horse...they can get pretty heavy and unwieldy in some instances. This one has a 35 inch barrel and is .50 caliber. I shoot it regularly in matches, but it gets carried in my truck...not on a horse !

[4V50 Gary]

Nice rifle. Ditch the tablecloth. Mein auge!

[Hawg]

That is a nice rifle.

[ThomasT]

I like the table cloth. I'd like to have a shirt made out of it. Flower garden camo!

And thats a deluxe rifle. I have sold a couple of my BP rifles and have had a couple of other CF guns up for sale because I am thinking about buying a really nice BP rifle. Maybe something from TVM or one of the ready to go rifles from TOW.

I have spent a lot of time watching duelist1954 on Youtube shoot his rock sparkers. Maybe too much time.

[ThomasT]

ratshooter, years ago now (back in the 80's and 90's), when my sons were still in school, I got to give presentations there on the history and equipment of the mountain men along with the firearms and most all accoutrements. I'd be there with buckskins on, along with my custom Hawken .53 cal. perc. half-stock, and my dear old .45 cal., flint, Pennsylvania long rifle that I built back in '76. I'd show them how to load a patched r.b. rifle, how to prime and to cap, and then (rifles painstakingly checked as unloaded) I'd klatch a pan of 4f, and watch their faces...priceless. Then, too, I'd snap a cap on the Hawken...yup. I was versed fairly well by that time to answer any questions they had on the guns and history of the fur trade. From all the people I got to meet and learn from through the years with my close buddies and mentors, my interest and learning of history and traditional firearms was a reward to be able to share with interested young minds. I hope some of those kids took it all to heart and have followed that trail I've held quite dear. Good stuff, and again, "Good Medicine."

Also, for quite a few years during that time (and later) I got to give the presentation of the safe handling (and history) of m.l. firearms during our local Wyoming firearms safety programs. At that time, my presentation didn't involve anything but traditional guns and loads. Patched round ball, flint and percussion only. I'm sure these days, the inline stuff would be quite popular, but I never got into that vein. A fine shooter and gun builder (who's since "gone home") I got to camp, shoot and share with, once said as we stood together leaning on our rifles waiting to shoot the iron target during a competition; "There's nothin' quite like shooting the ol' patched round ball." And as ol' Del Gue said, "By God he was right."

Rienert I wish you had of came to my school back then. I have always had an interest in guns since I was just a wee tot. I was given a Red Ryder BB gun to play with all by myself when I was 5 years old. And it was a constant companion until I just flat wore it out. But I got a new BB gun for christmas. Bingo! Thanks dad. And mom.

My GF was a custom gunsmith and built hundred of custom Mauser rifles back in the 1950s through the 1970s. My dad would blue the actions for extra money. We had Mauser actions all over the house and mainly in the bathroom hung up getting a rust blue finish. So I grew up with guns. My dad and uncles all hunted so it just came to by that means. But no one shot BP rifles. I didn't even know they existed. I had to learn about those on my own. And learn I did. What a great way to shoot.

And to all who said they liked my thread thank you.

[reinert]

Good thread, ratshooter. Brought back lotsa great memories. Thanks, and watch yer topknot...

[DD4lifeusmc]

the culture and economics of the early 1800's were much the same as they are today as any other time period
you used what you had until you could afford different or better

[pwc]

Question...with those deeply curved buttplates, were they to be shot from the shoulder or the upper arm? I've seen pics in old muzzloader mags and I believe even in the Foxfire books of demonstrations with shooting from the upper arm. Now the shotgun style flat buttplates were intended from the shoulder.

30-30's with those curved butt plates kick harder than a 30-06.

[Old Stony]

Originally Posted by 4V50 Gary

Nice rifle. Ditch the tablecloth. Mein auge!

That tablecloth is a Texas thing with all the bluebonnets on it. My wife is a pretty active quilter and god only knows what will show up around here next. The tablecloth will stay here, but the rifle will be going with me to a match again this morning. The club where I will be shooting will have their regular thanksgiving meat shoot today and hopefully that rifle will help me be up to the task of winning a turkey or ham !

[Hawg]

Question...with those deeply curved buttplates, were they to be shot from the shoulder or the upper arm?

Upper arm.

30-30's with those curved butt plates kick harder than a 30-06.

That's all in your head. A 30-30 is a kitten no matter what kind of butt plate it has. A 30-06 to me doesn't kick a lot either, just enough to let you know it's there. And no I don't use recoil pads.

[pwc]

30-06 recoil doesnt bother me either with its shotgun stock, but the 30-30 with the pointed butt plate just plain hurts if you shoot many rounds

[Hawg]

30-06 recoil doesnt bother me either with its shotgun stock, but the 30-30 with the pointed butt plate just plain hurts if you shoot many rounds

Yeah if you put those points against your shoulder it's going to hurt.

[HiBC]

There certainly has been a population of black powder enthusiasts since BP was the only technology.
Some of them have been fur trade buckskinners. This was going on before the movie "Jeremiah Johnson"
The movie greatly popularized shooting BP,with an emphasis on the fur trade.

A lot of the public identify the Hawken with the movie and subsequent offerings from Thompson Center and CVA and others.called "Hawken" Folks took pride and patience in building CVA and TC,and other "Hawken" kits. Those rifles were the doorway into the movie,the fur trade,Rendezvous,etc.

For many people,thats what a "Hawken" is. I give that a split decision. I'm glad all those folks got into BP shooting,building their kit,and enjoying their rifles.
Good for them!! .Last thing in the world I want to do is put down their pride and joy by being a Hawken snob.

But I also appreciate that its quite a stretch to call these popular guns a Hawken.

I worked with an engineer who was in on the Cherry Corners Hawken enterprise.I got a set of blueprints for Mariano Medina's rifle from him. IIRC,a Sharon barrel,too. I worked with a Gentleman out of Cheyenne who had "The Flintlocker" on his business card. His name was Ken. He mentored me through my first few builds.
It was my privilege to have a (late) Gentleman named Michael McCormick open Cache La Poudre Rifleworks open shop in my home town. A great shop,a fine man,and a Friend. He helped build an active Buckskinner group with a range,regular shoots,and a shop where I bought Baird's book,Excellent book.
I met Ron Long at those shoots. Ron Long,along with being a champion shooter,made superb locks and double sets for Hawken rifles.
This shop...was amazing. Pelts,trade beads,trade blankets,patterns for period clothes,books...Siler Locks and kits,L+R locks and triggers,Griffin hook breeches,all the unplated screws,hardware,furniture...You want a Goetz swamped barrel? There might be 4 in the rack!! Curlymaple blanks,horns,...on and on.And,a rendezvous point for smiths,enthusiasts,and shooters.Alongs with a very interesting inventory of guns,including Sharps rifles,cap and balls,and shotguns. He kept fair prices,too.
Mike would Buckskin himself out and show up,with friends to "SkookumDays" at the museum in Library Park,and he would go to schools to pass on interest in fur trade history.
Mike was far more than a shopkeeper.He built a community. RIP.

I still have the Hawken I built as Mike's customer. I value it in ways that are not about money.

I'd agree,there were not a lot of Hawken rifles,and few could afford them.
But I believe many a Mountain Man said "Some day!! That is the rifle to have!".
And gave rise to the story of Hatchet Jack,dead,under a tree,holding a Hawken with a note " This is The rifle that kilt the bear that kilt me"
Sort of like winning the lotto.
Nothing at all wrong with a Leman trade rifle or a Herschel House type Poor Boy.
And I'd agree,many other rifles were carried,served,and served well. The Eastern folks headed west carrying their eastern fine rifles.
I think it was John Bevins wrote a fine rifle building book "The Pennsylvania Rifle" Good book to have if you want to build.

[reinert]

HiBC,

I suppose it's got to be at least 6-7 years ago now (maybe more; years seem as months these days sometimes), that Cache La Poudre had that really neat shop in downtown Ft. Collins. And a few years ago (maybe a couple more) my wife and I were walking main street Ft. Collins (visiting the area from Northern Wyoming), and while she was in that great kitchen shop there, I went down the street a little ways to hang out in Cache La Poudre. Right where I remembered I thought it was, it wasn't. I walked into a sandwich shop there and asked the young gal as to what happened to the gunshop. She said it used to be right here...death in the family, I was told. It's hard to see those places gone now; like Old West Arms in Denver. I've got a Lee mould I bought from OWA back in the mid-80's, a .530 single cavity. Much the worse for wear, it still drops a good r.b. Literally thousands have gone through that thing. the price sticker, though quite faded, still says, Old West Arms on the box I still keep it in.

I remember the Cherry Corners stuff, too. Didn't Ithaca end up with that company when they had their Hawken offering? The Buckskin Report was the meeting place for all things Hawken back in the 70's and 80's, and that's pretty good history, too, if you have the literature.

I built a southern mt. rifle for my wife back in '77, and its got a Hall Sharon barrel on it in .45 cal., a great shooter still (my wife AND her rifle). I believe Mr. Sharon was up in Kalispell, MT. I've also got a southern mt. rifle I built in the mid-80's with a 1" Getz barrel on it with the round bottomed rifling. Another shooter, certain sure. My old .45 flint long rifle I mentioned in an earlier post has a Green River Rifle Works barrel on it, and it's still a top notch shooter after 40+ years, and lots and lots (and lots) of loadings. All the guns I've built have Silers on them, flint and percussion, both; the standard back then, and the standard still (IMO). I still have a parts price list that has a little note from Bud Siler on it, and it's one of my prized nostalgia bits from the past...priceless.

The air was magic back in those days; the shoots, the rendezvous and the comradery. A fine thing that I was so fortunate to be a part of back then.

BTW, my .53 cal. Hawken was one of those Jed Smith commemorative, Santa Fe Hawkens. It was completely redone by a fine rifle builder friend of mine, whom I got into a trade with. Needless to say, it was a good trade, and I've got the Hawken. I've shown that rifle to quite a few people through the past years, and not one could guess it was a Santa Fe; another really fine gun, that will always be a keeper. The inscription and number that the rifle had on it, regarding the Jed Smith model, was filed off for authenticity's sake. My friend who re-worked the gun said it looked too funky to leave on it. This past year, my good friend who built my Hawken, passed away. My wife and I miss him very much; a true artisan, mechanic, and historian who built rifles (and anything else he'd put his mind to) literally up until he made the Journey home.

Thanks for the memories revisited, HiBC. And to ratshooter, too, thanks again for this great thread...more than likely not done yet...

reinert

[ThomasT]

There is an old saying I ran across many years ago that sums up what makes threads like this and stories about the past so interesting to us.

What they dreamed, we live, and what they lived, we dream.—T. K. Whipple, Study Out the Land

And for me that sums it up. Its easy for us to read a book or watch a movie or documentary about the past and think "Boy I wish I lived back then". But its easy to glorify the rugged past and minimize the attendant hardships and dangers. Starvation was possible. A small injury could be fatal from infection. Your kids dying at a young age was a real possibilty, that is if you were lucky enough to have a wife and have her along with you. The chances of a bear attack and the real possibility of an Indian attack.

Thats why we live what they dreamed. A better life for ourselves and our kids is a constant dream. The past they lived was a rough difficult existence but what a life of freedom they had and that what sparks me the most.

Live where you want. Travel when and where you want. Almost no laws except your nature of right or wrong. No taxes and no one to answer to.

Del Gue: I ain't never seen 'em, but my common sense tells me the Andes is foothills, and the Alps is for children to climb! Keep good care of your hair! These here is God's finest scupturings! And there ain't no laws for the brave ones! And there ain't no asylums for the crazy ones! And there ain't no churches, except for this right here! And there ain't no priests excepting the birds. By God, I are a mountain man, and I'll live 'til an arrow or a bullet finds me. And then I'll leave my bones on this great map of the magnificent...

[ThomasT]

I am guessing everyone here saw the "Revenant" movie. What did you folks think of it? I liked the guns and the battle scene at the beginning but the fact that they changed the story so much sort of spoiled it for me. They had to potential to beat out Jeremiah Johnson but lost it because of the change from history to fiction. At least for me I didn't like it as much for that reason.So what did you all think?

Here is the IMDB page and they only list three guns. A Pedersoli pistol, a custom Pennsylvania rifle that had the barrel cut down and Brown Bess rifles cut to carbine length. I have always wondered if original rifles that went to the mountains may have been cut down to make them a little more portable.

http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/The_Revenant_(2015)

[HiBC]

I did not watch Revenant.The trailer was interesting.

The Hollywood celeb types ,such as Mr deeCarpio certainly may have different opinions than I do,no problem.
When they use their celebrity to leverage those opinions into imposing their politics, I tend to keep my wallet in my pocket.
deeCarpio flies around in his private jet telling me what sacrifices I need to make. I do not feed that dog.

I got long winded in my response and timed out.

I wrote of the locals,such as Mike "Broken Butt"McCormick and the local buckskinners being part of the movie "Mountain Men" and the mini series "Centennial"
This town is now around 200,000 . In 1966,it was around 40,000. I recalled the names of the Gunsmiths and shops...Claude,Sarge,Dave, Louie,Glenn,Fletch,Frank,Cactus Jack,Buckhorn,Timberline,Mike...the indoor range at the high school I attended,the great county range we had,in town trap range. The Old Man mentors...the open ground and freedom.
It was OK to be a kid on a bike with a rifle or shotgun slung across your back.
"There is a kid keeping out of trouble"
Those Old Men are gone. Now I'm one of them....but they were in their time.

The fur trade did not last long. Time passed those guys by. They did not fit anymore,except for the indignity of "The Wild West Show"

It occurs to me,like the Mountain Man,60's and 70's Colorado,I lived something
thats gone.

Movies? Last night I said to a young man" It amazes me how many younger folks have never seen "Easy Rider","American Graffitti",or "Forrest Gump"

He just gave me a blank look.He had not seen them,either. Not epic films,but some Americana.

For the younger folks...I don't know..my grandparents,parents(Both No Africa/Italy Veterans)and myself pretty much spanned the 20th Century.

WW2 ,for younger folks,is rapidly becoming as far away from their experience and relevance,as the Civil War of the previous Century was for me.

Cowboys,trail drives...blinks in history.Time moved by.

I still don't use a cell phone

[ThomasT]

Great post HiBC. And I don't like the hollywood types telling me how to live anymore than I would put up with that goofball in NY telling me how big a Coke I can drink. If I want a Route 44 with 44oz of Coke thats my business. I have heard the Kennedy's wouldn't let then put up wind turbines near their northern retreat because they spoil the view. They wanted them somewhere they couldn't see them. And I agree. They are ugly. But nobody asked me where I thought they should be. I hate seeing them when I go to west Tx marching down I-20. What an eyesore.

And you didn't miss much on the Revenant movie. They took a very good story about a mans survival and made a bedtime story out of it. It would have been better if I hadn't know the real story.

[Pathfinder45]

The Snake River Plains in Idaho used to be the Old West and still looked like it until they filled it with those unsightly wind-generators.

[ThomasT]

The Snake River Plains in Idaho used to be the Old West and still looked like it until they filled it with those unsightly wind-generators.

Is there no shame?