The superiority of the K frame magnum!

[44 AMP]

The frame/cylinder and the grips are the bulkiest parts and the most difficult to conceal.

My point is, that people who go to the L frame over the N frame, and think they are saving weight, aren't.

And, for what its worth, all that "extra weight" of the N frame over the K? It's approximately 6 (six) ounces +/-, with equal barrel lengths.

Slight weight variations occur due to differing densities of wood grips, and if you are comparing a bull barrel model to a standard one.

Old time officers I've spoken with nearly always say they never noticed the difference in weight between N and K frame when worn on their service belt.

On the other hand, they weren't carrying a radio, baton, pepper spray, taser, and two or three other things I don't even recognize as part of the regular walking out kit. Gun, a couple of dump pouches (speedloaders if your dept was "progressive") and a handcuff case was the usual gear.

I can see where, today, loaded like pack mules, officers could find 6oz to make a noticeable difference. For civilian carry, I don't think it matters as much...

otherwise, my thoughts are still what they were 10 years ago, when this thread was started...

[OldMarksman]

My L-Frame has a tapered lug and a five inch barrel.

I like the gun. I do not like a full-length lug, on a Smith or on a Python.

I had no idea that the 586/686 fame size is just about the same as that of the Colt Official Police until I read that in a book by Mas Ayoob.

[mk70ss]

K frame Smiths, prior the idiot lock are some of the best DA wheel guns ever made.

[44 AMP]

I had no idea that the 586/686 fame size is just about the same as that of the Colt Official Police until I read that in a book by Mas Ayoob.

here's another one, something I learned by accident,

Colt snub noses, the Detective Special, and the later Agent (alloy frame Det Special), use the SAME SPEEDLOADER as K frame S&Ws.

[SIGSHR]

Bill Jordan described the M-19/Combat Magnum as "the answer to a peace officer's dream" and I can see how carrying it on one's belt for 8-12 hours day would be more comfortable.

[bricz75]

K frames are attractive, well balanced and great to shoot. At the same time a steady diet of full power 357 rounds will prematurely wear them out. They were the weapon of choice when the LEOs who were armed with them followed the "Practice with 38s, Carry 357s" mentality.

To those who believe the K frames are delicate, I can only say that I have not found that to be the case. I do agree that there were problems with the early full house 125-grain loads but today's 125-grain loads are not up at those early pressure levels.

That said, the guns are not delicate by any stretch and will consume may thousands of magnum loads that are much more powerful than 38 special without any undue wear.

Advances in metallurgy have made it absolutely possible to produce K frame magnums of yesterday's dimensions but with more strength and durability.

I think there's a couple of important things to consider. One is the pressure levels of magnum loads when the K frame acquired a reputation for wearing out, whether it be real, perceived, or due to 125gr loads only. How much difference is there in pressure loads then compared to now? I don't know. Two is advances in metallurgy and how much that has helped newer revolvers. That I don't know, either.

The above said, can the older K frames take a steady diet of today's full power .357 loads? Can newer K frames with more advanced metallurgy take a steady diet of today's .357 loads?

Let's leave 125gr loads out of the above questions, unless someone wants to mention them specifically. This way it is known that one's opinion doesn't necessarily apply when using heavier, thus more standard, bullet weights.

I'm starting to ich for a nice K frame.

[Hanshi]

Let's see, now. I have K, L and N frames and .357 in all three sizes. I rarely fire full house magnums and even then I relegate them to the N frames. My most fired round out of these revolvers is the wadcutter target load, which I reload by the thousands. Next is a good service level swc that occasionally sees use. For the M19 & 65 I have a reduced magnum load comprised of a home cast swc over 12.5 grains of 2400. This gives between 1150 fps and 1200 fps depending on barrel length. It's great in the K frames.

I consider the Python to be closer to the K frame in strength than to the L frame; it has seen wadcutters exclusively. My 686 (no dash) has taken a good number of deer with one shot each. While it is wonderfully accurate with wadcutters, which it mostly fires, it has digested a good many magnums; which accounts for the deer.

But those old N frames are kings. I like them for their ability to accurately fire a diet of magnums without a burp. I have always had a particular fondness for the M28 and have owned several; the one I kept is a gem.

[Ibmikey]

Love the K frame Magnum, I have shot tens of thousands of .38 rounds through them when shooting police competition ( not being wealthy in the early days i shot my duty pistol) and carried performance .38 specials, never felt undergunned.
Occasionally I would require officers carrying a revolver full of magnums to shoot a course of fire with magnums, invariably they would carry performance .38's afterward.

[Brian48]

Nothing more sexy than a 2.5" snubbie

[SA1911]

If I were going to fire .357 Magnum rounds out of a handgun, I'd want that handgun to be a Model 27.

Many wheel gun aficionados have opined that the Model 27 is the best .357 Magnum ever manufactured...not to be interpreted as a slight to Python guys.

For self-defense, I'd much rather carry a Sig P239 .40 S&W with 180 grain ammo.

[SA1911]

HI Brian48,

That's a beautiful handgun.

Have you tried the FBI load. When I used to carry a .357 Mag for bipedal self defense, it was always loaded with the FBI load.

[Ibmikey]

As I recall the issue FBI ammo was Winchester 110 gr JHP +P+ .38 Special. I scrounged several boxes from the local FBI office when doing a study on converting the dept. from revolvers to Mod 59 Smiths.

[SA1911]

IBmikey,

No. The FBI load is 158 grain SWC +P. I've never worked for the FBI. I was a beat cop. Back in the day of revolvers, I carried the FBI load.

[UncleEd]

Ibmikey,

I'm sure you came across an FBI office with the 110 grain +P+ loads
but I do believe the "official" load was the 158 grain SCWHP.

However, I do remember reading that Treasury was the one
that ordered the 110 grain +P+ as its "official" load.

I put "official" in quotes because I'm sure federal agents passed
around ammo or obtained stuff from a different department.
Like all humans, they fell to the "grass is greener" in the other
yard syndrome.

[James K]

It is easy today to forget that the K-frame Magnum (Model 19 or Combat Magnum) did not have an easy birth. S&W engineers blew a lot of K frames and stretched others in trying to make the idea (Bill Jordan's) work. The larger barrel tenon was necessary but would only work if part of it was cut away to allow room for the crane. Then, of course, the cylinder had to be made from a special alloy and it and the frame specially heat treated to stand the extra pressures of the .357 round. According to what I have heard, a lot of midnight oil was burned, and a lot of guns wrecked, before they got everything working.

Then the change to super high velocity with light bullets, introduced yet another factor. Early on, warnings were issued that K-frame Magnums should not be fed a steady diet of full house loads, a warning more and more often ignored by people who routinely ignore all safety warnings. Rather than simply issue another warning or print a note in the instruction manual, S&W decided to modify the gun to take an unlimited number of full-house loads The result was the L frame, a compromise in size and weight between the K-frame and the N-frame.

Jim

[BWM]

I like my S&W and I like the DW I have the barrels from 2in up to 12in that way I have a carry gun then a hunting gun the 15 mod is a very good gun I did not like the pork chop model.

[P5 Guy]

I'm a very opinionated guy, that said I think S&W's biggest mistake after the lock was running 'J' and 'K' frame guns on magnum pressure rounds.
I load, shoot and I am very fond of 357MAG, in my 681. This S&W offering should have been named "ULTIMATE COMBAT MAGNUM".

[ShootistPRS]

When a manufacturer states that one should not feed a steady diet of the round that the pistol is chambered in it should not be classified as a gun for that caliber. there are 9mms and 357 made that the manufacturer says not to use full power loads frequently. Maybe I'm just strange but if a gun is marked "357 Magnum" I would think that it should be able to handle a steady diet of the SAAMI maximum load. The same goes for the 9mm, which is nothing more powerful than a 38 +P in velocity/weight.
I guess owning Ruger revolvers has spoiled me. I use only one load and it is close to the original SAAMI maximum pressure load. Now you can only find loads like it in the "Ruger/Contender" section of loading manuals but it is the same pressure that S&W used when they introduced the cartridge. I think it's deplorable that S&W markets 357 Magnums and then tells you to use 38 +P loads so as not to hurt the gun.

[PzGren]

Nothing more sexy than a 2.5" snubbie

Well, .... how about a three inch snubbie?

[old bear]

Lawboy, you hit the nail right on the head. The .357 Magnum mid-sized K frames are the best all around revolvers produced, by anyone. I've been lucky enough to amass a small assortment of them, 2 1//2", 3", and 4" barrels.

Everyone of them is more accurate than I'll ever be, with any ammo, everything from mild target around through HOT 158Gr. Magnum loads. With the improvements in bullet design and powders I now carry some hot 38 special rounds, but it's nice to know I can SAFELY shoot full power Magnum rounds if I chose to do so.

As for the venerated L frames. I've owned two over the years. model 586 4" and a 3" 686. Both are great shooting revolvers, but both weigh much more than the K frames, to the point I don't like carrying one unless it's in a full sized duty belt and holster set-up. On the other hand the L frames are much easier on my old hand when shooting Magnum ammo. I do trust them to work each and every time the trigger is pulled, to the point that my 3" 686 is one of my home ready guns.

[ammo.crafter]

Let's not leave out my model 14!

[Ibmikey]

I contacted my source of the FBI loads that he gave me so many years ago and told me the 110 gr's +P+ were in fact Treasury Dept issue, the FBI issued 158 gr Sjhp +P Mystery solved.

[briandg]

My k is the best I have, a 15. I can deal with that accurately, better than my glock, firing da. I feel no need for a magnum in that size, but yes, the penultimate police revolver with the full power of the magnum can't be beaten.

No to the short barrels.

[Ibmikey]

Briandg, Why penultimate ? There were many more Police revolvers to be released after the model 15, including but not limited to the 19, 60, 64, 66, 686, etc. Agreed some of those were magnums but others were chambered for the mighty .38 Special only.

[langenc]

Got lucky and a friend sold me a 66 about 15 yrs ago. I like it and can really appreciate those w/ the shorter barrels, shorter than 4".