How do you fire a warning shot? - Page 2

p99guy · November 19, 2005, 11:46 AM

"warning "shots are a bad idea all the way around..as has been pointed out , you are either justified to shoot the person, or not shoot at all. You are responsible for what that bullet does..whether it knocks a hole in someones car, or someone. It also shows a BG in their way of thinking that you dont have your nerve up......and a warning shot at somebody you are chasing on foot is just going to make them run faster lol.

gddyup · November 19, 2005, 11:52 AM

If you have to draw on someone, the site of the gun in your hands is going to be enough of a detterent or it's not. If brandishing isn't going to prove to the BG that you're willing to put him away, than firing a warning shot probably won't prove your resolve either. That shot's just another bullet flying around that probably shouldn't be.

Capt. Charlie · November 19, 2005, 01:20 PM

Quote:

I have heard a sheriff deputy say once that police cannot shoot someone running from them, unless it is at night, unless they first call out to them once or twice, and then fire a warning shot in the air and then shoot them.

Admittedly, there are departments out there with some pretty screwy policies, but only at night? Warning shot? Never heard those before; in fact, I know of NO department that authorizes warning shots, other than military.

The test of whether or not you can shoot someone running from you comes from SCOTUS's decision in Gardner vs Tennessee in 1985. The details are lengthly and mostly involve the use of deadly force for law enforcement, but the crux of the matter relating to this discussion is that deadly force IS authorized against a fleeing suspect IF the suspect's continued freedom presents a grave and imminent threat to the lives of others, and no other options for apprehension exist. I'm not sure how this would apply to non-LEO's.

Hollywood D · November 19, 2005, 03:46 PM

Police are not allowed to shoot warning shots

tuckerdog1 · November 19, 2005, 04:28 PM

A shot to the back will likely cost you a couple years pay in attorney fees. But under the right circumstances, can be beat in court. Happened a couple years ago in Austin. BG was fleeing, GG gave chase for several blocks & killed BG in an alley with shots to back & side. Kind of a long story & wrong thread. Maybe a shot in the back thread should be started.

Tuckerdog1

Blackwater OPS · November 19, 2005, 08:02 PM

I don't know about other units, but Army Military Police are NOT EVER allowed to fire warning shots.

MillCreek · November 19, 2005, 08:09 PM

Radiki, absolutely hilarious pictures. I am afraid to show them to my cat lest she get some ideas.

Eghad · November 19, 2005, 08:20 PM

I still have the last ROE card I got, all it says

If the situation permits, issue a challenge.

Nothing in these rules limit the right of individual soldiers to defend themselves or the right and responsibility of leaders to defend thier units.

Rule no 6. Do not cause unnecessary suffering.....hrmmm

I f you have broken out the firearm you have just used deadly force. In Texas, if you say stop or I am going to shoot you just used deadly force even if your pistol is holstered. So whats the dealie with a warning shot, its totally useless. Not to mention the fact that you are responsible for what that bullet does from the warning shot. Bullets should be put in the target not shot willy nilly into the air. If the guy is running with his back to me I have caused him to cease and desist. If he is of no immediate danger then I have accomplished what I needed to do. My knees are bad so I am not chasing him..but using the cell phone to call 911 with a description.

let the Motorolas chase him down....

too many choices!? · November 20, 2005, 12:49 PM

At COM?

Para Bellum · November 20, 2005, 01:53 PM

I know that in the USA warning shots are not very popular to say the least. We had a thread here some months ago which got pretty hot...

aaanyway: We in Austria/Europe do shoot warning shots with quite some success. Austrian police ammo (Fiocchi/Hirtenberger FL, 9x19mm, Glock 17) doesn't ricochet at all if fired straight into the floor (Street, concrete etc) at angles below 15°.

Don't fire warning shots into the air, the bullets come down almost as fast as they went up and can easily kill somebody miles away. Just DONT.

Fire warning shots straight down as straight as you can and WATCH YOUR FEET! You could also choose a secure backstop such as a concrete wall more than 10yds away or sand etc. Warning shots are much better than having to shoot somebody. So if there's time for it and a secure backstop it's a very smart alternative to killing. The sobering effect of a warning shot can be immense. However, only fire a warning shot if you have enough time to fire COM in case the BG doesn't react to your warning shot.

This is not about being allowed to shoot at somebody or not. This is about achieving control of a dangerous situation without having to kill a human, dog or whatever. If you have an alternative - use it for your own sake. Even if you were right and defending innocent life, you'd still have to cope with having killed somebody. And that's not an easy thing anyway...

kymasabe · November 20, 2005, 10:43 PM

Years ago, when I still lived in New Jersey, I got in a discussion with a cop about a home invader and would I be justified in shooting them. The cop said at the time that THREE warning shots were required or else the disctrict attourney would prosecute the home owner/shooter. The cop's suggestion was shoot the invader first, then put three shots in your ceiling to protect yourself from prosecution.

Now, here in Florida....if someone enters my house, all my warning shots are headed for C.O.M.

Glenn E. Meyer · November 21, 2005, 10:51 AM

Interesting about Europe. I was ready a handgun book and it discussed a revolver used by the Dutch police. It was loaded with two blanks first. I guess those are for warning shots that won't zap an innocent. I don't know if I would recommend this practice but it is a solution for the noise maker crowd.

tuckerdog1 · November 21, 2005, 06:02 PM

kymasabe ,

I'd get a second opinion on that multiple warning shots & home invaders. LEOs are just people, and often wrong about what they think is the law. I've had multiple disagreements with LEOs where I work, concerning rules & procedures, and I every case, I was correct & they were incorrect. And that's understandable, they have to deal with a huge volume of ever changing info, and nobody can keep up with it all.
Warning shots just seem wrong. First, you're not supposed to even draw the gun unless you're in fear of life of severe bodily harm. So why a warning at that point? Second, you're putting a round off into the unknown & may kill or injure an innocent person blocks away ( or in the apartment upstairs with ceiling shots ). Shot straight up have been known to come back down & kill. I understand that's common on the Middle East, when they start shooting into the air & a large crowd is around.

Tuckerdog1

kymasabe · November 21, 2005, 06:33 PM

Tucker, I don't live there anymore so I'm not concerned about it. Here in Florida, if I ever NEED to draw my weapon, I intend to use it.

axslingerW · November 21, 2005, 06:37 PM

Like any other shot. Line up the sights on the BG and gently squeeze the trigger. Warning shot is a waste of ammo. If I feel the need to use my pistol, someone is going to have a bad day. And a short bad day at that.

DonR101395 · November 21, 2005, 09:27 PM

COM X 2 followed by BHG X 2 if first 2 warning shots were ineffective

cdsdss · November 22, 2005, 04:36 PM

At my agency we're forbidden from firing warning shots. As far as the legality of shooting a fleeing suspect, the rule we're taught is it's legal only if they pose an immediate threat of violence (i.e. they're carrying a weapon, there are other citizens present for them to harm, etc.)

This, like most legalities, is subjective and gets evaluated and hashed out later in the shooting investigation, so you can't really give a "for example" scenario.

CDS

Pamato · November 23, 2005, 09:12 PM

Not having ever fired in anger, all sources that I have studied both in the military and in the civilian world say that your first warning should be shot center mass.

Steve in PA · November 24, 2005, 12:39 AM

Go back and find the deputy and tell him to read up on case law concerning the use of force/deadly force because he doesn't know his butt from a hole in the ground.

Pistolenschutze · November 24, 2005, 01:01 AM

If you need to draw a weapon, the situation has already deteriorated to the point that further warning of any kind is a waste of time and might well be hazardous to your own health. The only "warning shot" that is fired should be the one (or two, or three!) that enters the bad guy's X-ring.

November 19, 2005, 11:52 AM	#27
gddyup Senior Member Join Date: July 22, 2005 Location: Derry, NH Posts: 219	If you have to draw on someone, the site of the gun in your hands is going to be enough of a detterent or it's not. If brandishing isn't going to prove to the BG that you're willing to put him away, than firing a warning shot probably won't prove your resolve either. That shot's just another bullet flying around that probably shouldn't be. __________________ Firefighter/EMT - Currently teamed on Engine 1... I always get to play with my Knob! "Good judgement comes from experience and experience comes from poor judgement" - Unknown. "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." - Robert A. Heinlein

November 19, 2005, 03:46 PM	#29
Hollywood D Member Join Date: September 30, 2005 Location: Wyoming Posts: 60	Police are not allowed to shoot warning shots __________________ Give me 3 stacks of High Society Springfield XD-40

November 19, 2005, 04:28 PM	#30
tuckerdog1 Senior Member Join Date: September 20, 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 281	A shot to the back will likely cost you a couple years pay in attorney fees. But under the right circumstances, can be beat in court. Happened a couple years ago in Austin. BG was fleeing, GG gave chase for several blocks & killed BG in an alley with shots to back & side. Kind of a long story & wrong thread. Maybe a shot in the back thread should be started. Tuckerdog1 __________________ Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats. - Henry Louis Mencken

November 19, 2005, 08:02 PM	#31
Blackwater OPS Senior Member Join Date: September 11, 2005 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 1,152	I don't know about other units, but Army Military Police are NOT EVER allowed to fire warning shots. __________________ "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -Ben Franklin Spc. Jeremy M. Campbell Died 9/1/2005 and the best DS ever MSG Matthew Ritz Died 11.23.2005 matthewritz.com For those who have had to fight for it, Life holds a special meaning that the protected will never know. (\__/) (='.'=) Someone set us up the bunny! (")_(")

November 19, 2005, 08:09 PM	#32
MillCreek Senior Member Join Date: December 30, 2004 Location: Snohomish County, Washington USA Posts: 326	Radiki, absolutely hilarious pictures. I am afraid to show them to my cat lest she get some ideas. __________________ Regards, MillCreek Snohomish County, Washington USA

November 19, 2005, 11:46 AM	#26
p99guy Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 2004 Location: Haslet,Texas(DFW area) Posts: 1,506	"warning "shots are a bad idea all the way around..as has been pointed out , you are either justified to shoot the person, or not shoot at all. You are responsible for what that bullet does..whether it knocks a hole in someones car, or someone. It also shows a BG in their way of thinking that you dont have your nerve up......and a warning shot at somebody you are chasing on foot is just going to make them run faster lol.

November 19, 2005, 08:20 PM	#33
Eghad Senior Member Join Date: May 28, 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 6,231	I still have the last ROE card I got, all it says If the situation permits, issue a challenge. Nothing in these rules limit the right of individual soldiers to defend themselves or the right and responsibility of leaders to defend thier units. Rule no 6. Do not cause unnecessary suffering.....hrmmm I f you have broken out the firearm you have just used deadly force. In Texas, if you say stop or I am going to shoot you just used deadly force even if your pistol is holstered. So whats the dealie with a warning shot, its totally useless. Not to mention the fact that you are responsible for what that bullet does from the warning shot. Bullets should be put in the target not shot willy nilly into the air. If the guy is running with his back to me I have caused him to cease and desist. If he is of no immediate danger then I have accomplished what I needed to do. My knees are bad so I am not chasing him..but using the cell phone to call 911 with a description. let the Motorolas chase him down.... __________________ Have a nice day at the range NRA Life Member

November 20, 2005, 12:49 PM	#34
too many choices!? Senior Member Join Date: December 19, 2004 Posts: 371	How Do You Fire A Warning Shot? At COM?

November 20, 2005, 01:53 PM	#35
Para Bellum Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2005 Location: right there Posts: 1,882	USA vs Europe I know that in the USA warning shots are not very popular to say the least. We had a thread here some months ago which got pretty hot... aaanyway: We in Austria/Europe do shoot warning shots with quite some success. Austrian police ammo (Fiocchi/Hirtenberger FL, 9x19mm, Glock 17) doesn't ricochet at all if fired straight into the floor (Street, concrete etc) at angles below 15°. Don't fire warning shots into the air, the bullets come down almost as fast as they went up and can easily kill somebody miles away. Just DONT. Fire warning shots straight down as straight as you can and WATCH YOUR FEET! You could also choose a secure backstop such as a concrete wall more than 10yds away or sand etc. Warning shots are much better than having to shoot somebody. So if there's time for it and a secure backstop it's a very smart alternative to killing. The sobering effect of a warning shot can be immense. However, only fire a warning shot if you have enough time to fire COM in case the BG doesn't react to your warning shot. This is not about being allowed to shoot at somebody or not. This is about achieving control of a dangerous situation without having to kill a human, dog or whatever. If you have an alternative - use it for your own sake. Even if you were right and defending innocent life, you'd still have to cope with having killed somebody. And that's not an easy thing anyway... __________________ Si vis pacem - para bellum If you want peace - prepare for war

November 20, 2005, 10:43 PM	#36
kymasabe Senior Member Join Date: June 10, 2005 Location: SW Florida Posts: 2,747	Years ago, when I still lived in New Jersey, I got in a discussion with a cop about a home invader and would I be justified in shooting them. The cop said at the time that THREE warning shots were required or else the disctrict attourney would prosecute the home owner/shooter. The cop's suggestion was shoot the invader first, then put three shots in your ceiling to protect yourself from prosecution. Now, here in Florida....if someone enters my house, all my warning shots are headed for C.O.M. __________________ God's creatures big and small, eat them one, eat them all.

November 21, 2005, 10:51 AM	#37
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	Interesting about Europe. I was ready a handgun book and it discussed a revolver used by the Dutch police. It was loaded with two blanks first. I guess those are for warning shots that won't zap an innocent. I don't know if I would recommend this practice but it is a solution for the noise maker crowd. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

November 21, 2005, 06:02 PM	#38
tuckerdog1 Senior Member Join Date: September 20, 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 281	kymasabe , I'd get a second opinion on that multiple warning shots & home invaders. LEOs are just people, and often wrong about what they think is the law. I've had multiple disagreements with LEOs where I work, concerning rules & procedures, and I every case, I was correct & they were incorrect. And that's understandable, they have to deal with a huge volume of ever changing info, and nobody can keep up with it all. Warning shots just seem wrong. First, you're not supposed to even draw the gun unless you're in fear of life of severe bodily harm. So why a warning at that point? Second, you're putting a round off into the unknown & may kill or injure an innocent person blocks away ( or in the apartment upstairs with ceiling shots ). Shot straight up have been known to come back down & kill. I understand that's common on the Middle East, when they start shooting into the air & a large crowd is around. Tuckerdog1 __________________ Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats. - Henry Louis Mencken

November 21, 2005, 06:33 PM	#39
kymasabe Senior Member Join Date: June 10, 2005 Location: SW Florida Posts: 2,747	Tucker, I don't live there anymore so I'm not concerned about it. Here in Florida, if I ever NEED to draw my weapon, I intend to use it. __________________ God's creatures big and small, eat them one, eat them all.

November 21, 2005, 06:37 PM	#40
axslingerW Senior Member Join Date: May 8, 2005 Location: St. louis Posts: 249	Like any other shot. Line up the sights on the BG and gently squeeze the trigger. Warning shot is a waste of ammo. If I feel the need to use my pistol, someone is going to have a bad day. And a short bad day at that.

November 21, 2005, 09:27 PM	#41
DonR101395 Senior Member Join Date: October 30, 2005 Location: NWFL Posts: 3,031	COM X 2 followed by BHG X 2 if first 2 warning shots were ineffective

November 22, 2005, 04:36 PM	#42
cdsdss Senior Member Join Date: November 22, 2005 Location: Wash. DC Posts: 147	Warning shots, shooting a fleeing suspect... At my agency we're forbidden from firing warning shots. As far as the legality of shooting a fleeing suspect, the rule we're taught is it's legal only if they pose an immediate threat of violence (i.e. they're carrying a weapon, there are other citizens present for them to harm, etc.) This, like most legalities, is subjective and gets evaluated and hashed out later in the shooting investigation, so you can't really give a "for example" scenario. CDS

November 23, 2005, 09:12 PM	#43
Pamato Member Join Date: November 17, 2004 Location: North Carolina Posts: 35	Not having ever fired in anger, all sources that I have studied both in the military and in the civilian world say that your first warning should be shot center mass. __________________ SA XD40 Service Taurus PT140 MilPro (daily carry) Taurus PT145 17 yr old GP-100 7 Wonderful Children

November 24, 2005, 12:39 AM	#44
Steve in PA Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 1999 Location: Northeastern PA Posts: 756	Go back and find the deputy and tell him to read up on case law concerning the use of force/deadly force because he doesn't know his butt from a hole in the ground. __________________ Steve

November 24, 2005, 01:01 AM	#45
Pistolenschutze Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 2005 Location: Colorado Posts: 243	If you need to draw a weapon, the situation has already deteriorated to the point that further warning of any kind is a waste of time and might well be hazardous to your own health. The only "warning shot" that is fired should be the one (or two, or three!) that enters the bad guy's X-ring. __________________ --Pistolenschutze (Pistol Shooter) Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt, tum soli proscripti catapultas habebunt. (When catapults are outlawed, only outlaws will have catapults.)