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Old June 4, 2018, 01:52 PM   #1
KMSW831
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Building/buying a back country /backpacking hunting rifle

Hey all,

I posted this on another forum and have gotten great feedback, but just discovered this forum and from lurking it seems like there is a lot of great knowledge here!

Quick intro. Grew up hunting in MT, primarily with a lever 30-30, 30-40 kraig, .308 and 7mm-08. Haven't hunted in many, many years. Been busy with kids, work and most of my shooting has been AR and pistol via tactical classes.

Oldest son is 8, and he and my wife have been watching hunting shows, and with 4 boys, I want them growing up hunting like I did. Plus I miss it. Live in AZ now, will hunt here and in MT etc.

Ok, I don't want a caliber war, it's all been said, but I do have some very practical, real life user experience questions for you, since I've been out of hunting for so long.

Goals for the rifle I build or buy -

1.) Capable of taking Deer/Elk at reasonable ranges (say deer to 500, Elk to 300-400) back in the day I was a decent stalker so could usually close the distance, but AZ and MT can both produce some longer range shots so I do want to be able to push distance a little if needed. Being able to download to coyotes would be cool.

2.) Recoil low enough for me to do a lot of range time to get the skills back. I can build a remmag or something in the future if needed, but would like to be able to put 20-30 rounds down the pipe in a sitting without a terribly sore shoulder or loose teeth.

3.) Efficient in a short barrel. I am planning some hunts that will be multi-day backpacking trips and/or lots walking/mountain hiking. I like to hunt that way, so I'd like to be at a 22" barrel. Maybe 24" tops, but prefer shorter.

4.) I am learning to reload, but don't want to HAVE to reload. I would like a caliber that has some reasonable ammo availability (doesn't have to be .270 or .308 type availability, but not super hard to find quality hunting loads either).

5.) Looking for a cartridge that will maximize BC and SD, flat shooting, with good bullet options, while maintaining low recoil/short barrel goals. So mostly looking for 6.5 and 7mm options.

Ok, with those goals in mind, I'm really leaning towards the 7mm08. It ticks all the boxes, good BC and SD bullets available, efficient out of a shorter barrel etc.

That said, I'm open to thoughts. I've considered the following;

.284 Win - this seems like the perfect short action 7mm. A juiced up 7mm08. Few real life QUESTIONS about this round for you guys;
- Is it a hand loaders cartridge? Is there good commercially available ammo?
- How does it do out of short barrel? Efficient like the 7mm08 or does is it handicapped by 22"?
- Recoil?

.280 rem/.280imp - Sweet caliber. It's not a short action but I'm not that concerned, as you can build either to be handy and reasonably light. Seems like the 7mm08 but with a bit more velocity/range in a still light recoiling package.
QUESTIONS
- How much of a handloaders round is this? I've read "I wouldn't have bought one if I didn't reload".
- I'm guessing the .280 needs a 24" barrel to not be handicapped, probably loses it's edge in a 22" or shorter barrel?

6.5x284 - The 6.5's obviously have some impressive numbers and slipper high BC bullets. Same questions as above... needs a longer bbl? I've read it's a barrel burner, but not that concerned. Ammo availability?

Anything else I'm missing? Feel free to throw out a caliber if you think I'm missing a winner.

Ok, next round of questions. I've read that if you buy or ream to a .280 improved chamber or 7mm08AI chamber, that you can still shoot the standard round just fine, but not the other way around. Is there accuracy lost shooting a standard round from a improved chamber?

Presumably that would require a re-zero, but if that's true, why wouldn't everyone get an AI chamber and then be able to fire either? What's the story here?

Thanks!
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Old June 4, 2018, 03:18 PM   #2
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Hello, and welcome.

Take a look at Remington, Tikka, or Kimber rifles. I have been seeing more of Kimbers lately, and they are very nice. Lightweight, controlled round feed, short or long action, and not too terribly expensive.

As far as cartridges, either 280/280 AI or 284 would be a good choice, although you might have some difficulty finding a rifle to buy in 284 Win. Either will launch a 160-ish gr bullet at close to 2,900 fps or a 175 gr at 2,700 fps, plenty for elk out to 500 yds.

And yes, the 284 is a handloader's cartridge, it's getting pretty hard to find factory fodder for them. Like any short-fat case, you would like it to have a longer barrel.

Shooting standard cartridges in an AI chamber will just fire-form the brass to the improved cartridge.
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Old June 4, 2018, 04:28 PM   #3
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I think I’d take my SBR in .308. It a HK 91/G3 clone with 12” barrel and 20 round capacity. Yeah, it sucked having to wait for the stamp, but it’s nice and short and functional now with a full size stock.
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Old June 4, 2018, 05:58 PM   #4
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Ummm, not sure what a SBR in 308 is going to do for the OP, but whatever...

KMSW831,

Welcome to the forum.

The 284Win is mostly a handloading option. I built a custom Mauser with a 24" barrel. Rifle weighs 10lbs, so that route is not an option for ya. Love the caliber, but it is more stout on recoil than the 7mm-08.

If I were you....

I'd be looking at the Kimber Hunter. At 5.5 lbs for the short action it's available in 6.5 Creed(aka 6.5 Manbun), 7mm-08, and the long action is listing the 280AI.
Also available is the 257 Roberts, which might be my pick. Love this cartridge!! Light recoil, and bullet weights from 75-120gr. Teamed up with the 115gr. Berger VLD Hunting, and Hodgdon Hybrid 100V would be a definite deer/antelope slayer. 120gr. for Elk.

As for the 7mm-08. Again, one of my favorite cartridges. I reamed mine out to 7mm-08AI. While a neat cartridge, and one that you won't find often in a hunting camp, looking back, I'm not sure I would do it again. From start anyways. Didn't pick up that much speed from it.
Took a large doe this last season at 413 yards using a 140gr. Berger VLD Hunting. She made it 20 yards, somehow... Heart was in gooey 2 pieces, both lungs destroyed. Jacket was found in the 1 inch fat layer on opposite side.
As for blood trail, looked like I shot a can of red spray paint.

Yes, you can shoot standard cartridges out of the Improved chamber. There is a slight loss of velocity. At 500 yards, you may notice different POI. Especially with the 7mm-08. With the 280 it may be more noticeable

I think If I got the Kimber Hunter in 257 Roberts, it would beg me to be Ackley Improved!!!

All the best.

Std7mag.
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Old June 4, 2018, 06:30 PM   #5
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Seriously, you’ve described the ideal situation for a compact weapon shooting a .308. Of course, it’s not as sexy as the new rounds, but it’s still got everything from bc to gr to get the job done.

That said, a 6.5 Creedmoor out of a 20” barrel will reach out to the distances you’re talking and do the job too... though I’m not sure I’d poke at an elk out to 400 - but that’s your business.

I think the perfect platform is the TC Encore! It’s short, easy to shoot, and generally comfortable. But it’s not super light. It’s all a trade off.

What is sexy, light, that if chambered in 6.5 you could probably let 20 fly on any given range session is the Barrett Fieldcraft.


- https://barrett.net/firearms/fieldcraft/#downloads


Good luck!
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Old June 4, 2018, 06:31 PM   #6
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I keep thinking 300WM, it edges out the 7mm-08 by a little bit on power and BC. You do buy more recoil with that extra oomph. Either will do the job superbly.
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Old June 4, 2018, 06:55 PM   #7
KMSW831
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Thanks for the info so far everyone.

I'll look into the 257 Roberts, that's not one I'm familiar with.

As far as .280, what are you all seeing for ammo availability? I've read that factory loads for 280 are pretty anemic, kinda killing it's advantage.

Interesting that the Kimber hunter comes chambered in 280AI.... I thought that was a mostly a hard to find, handloaders round, am I wrong?

@std7mag, I've had quite a few people tell me to bump up to 7mm remmag or 30.06, because they can be easily down loaded for lighter game, or beefed up for Elk/Moose. Do you have direct knowledge of 7mm remmag recoil vs 7mm-08?

Thanks!
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Old June 4, 2018, 07:00 PM   #8
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Sorry, I seem to be having a hard time getting this to quote posts.

ice monkey, I'm not opposed to a .308, but isn't it basically a ballistic twin to the 7mm08, with the 7mm being just a little flatter shooting and easier to find higher BC bullets? Also, I hear great things about the Creedmoore, does it have better terminal ballistics at longer ranges than 7mm08? I'll look into the rifles you suggested, thanks!

MTT TL, I need to shoot a 300WM and a 7mmRemMag. Just not sure how much recoil they actually have. I want to be efficient (price per round etc) and be able to spend lots of time on the range without being too sore, or developing a flinch.
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Old June 4, 2018, 07:28 PM   #9
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Quote:
Ummm, not sure what a SBR in 308 is going to do for the OP, but whatever...
Did you even read what he was looking for? Easy to reload, good component availability and good out of a short barrel... ..308 fits all the criteria. Can be loaded down for varmints or loaded to max with great bullets for elk at up to 400 yards. An SBR does as well as it’s easier to pack around than a full sized rifle even with a pencil barrel. No the op didn’t mention .308, so could also have this same package in 7mm08 and only change the bullets you’d buy.
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Old June 4, 2018, 08:58 PM   #10
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Yes i read the whole post. Didn't think he'd want to go through the whole thing of a tax stamp for an SBR. Also was the condition of deer to 500 yards, elk to 400.

7mm anything will out BC a 308. 7mm-08 will shoot flatter, carry more velocity at distance, and thus more energy at distance. Course same can be said of 6.5mm vs 7mm.

300 Win Mag? In a light packable rifle? I wouldn't want to be the one doing load development for it!

KMSW,
7mm Rem Mag recoils about like an 06' with full power loads.
Many different bullet weights (100-210gr) and construction for 7mm.
One lady loads hers down. Her name on here is WendyJ. Tell her i sent ya. Lol
You can get the light recoil factory loads for 7mmRem Mag. Ok on deer out to 200-300 yards. After that drops like a rock.

I'm shooting 150gr Nosler AccuBond Long Range out of mine. G1BC of 0.613. ( for you 30 cal guys). I also shoot 168gr. Berger VLD Hunting out of it too.

Yup, the Rem Mag is a versitile cartridge, and one easily found for factory ammo.
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Old June 4, 2018, 09:16 PM   #11
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Thanks std7mag.... I like 7mm's (hunted a lot with my uncles 7mm08 in HS and loved it, though I didn't know anything about ballistics or anything, just that it was a joy to carry, shoot and deer died. Never hunted Elk with it.)

Just wondering if I'm asking too much of the 7mm08 and other smaller calibers I'm considering. Probably not, but there is a Savage long range hunter in 7mmRM with a nice scope that is well priced, and the fella is open to trades, so I think I can work it out. Just don't want a super loud, high recoiling load either, but I don't consider .06 terrible so that's good info.

What's the minimum barrel length I can get out of 7mmRM before I've got a flame thrower and I'm wasting powder?
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Old June 4, 2018, 09:59 PM   #12
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Quote:
Goals for the rifle I build or buy -

1.) Capable of taking Deer/Elk at reasonable ranges (say deer to 500, Elk to 300-400)
I responded to your thread over at THR. While separate sites you'll find a lot of people post in both places.

For your stated purposes a 308, 7-08 or even 6.5 CM will meet your goals in a lightweight, compact rifle with minimum recoil. The 308 is my go-to round, and I also have a 6.5, but the 7-08 works just as well and splits the difference. With the right loads any of them will do the job you ask.

I have several 308 loads that I use, but a 178 gr Hornady ELD-X leaves my muzzle at 2650 fps with a BC of .535. It is still moving a 2030 fps at 400 yards with over 1600 ft lbs energy. FWIW, the same load is running 2590 fps from my 18" 308. That will still kill elk at 300-350 yards.

You can run the numbers, but a 7-08 will give nearly identical performance with 160-162 gr bullets.

The 6.5 CM will have the least recoil, but still have a 143 gr bullet impacting at over 2000 fps out to nearly 600 yards.

All these speeds are from 22" barrels, expect 50ish fps less speed at the muzzle from a 20" barrel.

Hunters have taken elk size game with all of these rounds in excess of 400 yards and deer in excess of 500.

The most accurate way to determine a bullets performance on game is its impact speed. If you can keep that number between 1800-2800 fps you are going to get excellent bullet performance. Below 1800 and you may see bullets not expand. If impact is above 2800 fps then you risk bullets blowing up and not penetrating. These are rough guides, there are many different bullets and the numbers vary a little depending on the bullet, but 1800-2800 is a good rough guide

The magnum rounds often fail at close range because they impact too fast, but do add 100 yards or so to the down range performance. With added recoil, and blast. I've owned 300, and 7mm magnums in the past and sold them. The reality is that a 308, 7-08 or even 6.5 CM will kill game farther than I have the skills to shoot. Why deal with a magnum rifle that has 30 ft lbs of recoil when I can shoot a 308 with about 15, a 7-08 with about 14 or a 6.5 CM with about 12 ft lbs recoil.

All of the rounds you list will work, as would at least a dozen others. But those 3 are common and easy to find ammo for. They come in short action rifles that are lighter and more compact and don't give up much performance from 18-20" barrels.
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Old June 4, 2018, 10:38 PM   #13
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jmr40, thanks for posting on both threads. I figured there would be a lot of crossover in terms of posters on both pages.

There is a lot of noise on the net as you know, and I've learned that finding the best forums, and posting in several places, allows me to watch and see what trends or arcs emerge, that really helps weed out the chatter.

Thanks for the informative post, it was also a good "come back to earth" post.

I was pretty settled on one of the non-magnum rounds, then I read the info on a few of them at ballisticstudies.com and was a bit surprised at how much he downplayed the killing ability of a few of the rounds I was leaning towards, particularly the 7mm08. Then of course you have the group that won't shoot Elk past 200 yards with anything less than a magnum, easy to get nervous when your a noob.

The velocity ranges you provided are very helpful. I understand they are rough ranges, but it gives me a tangible, real life bit of info for when I'm reading ballistic tables and velocity charts, so thank you.
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Old June 5, 2018, 01:20 AM   #14
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I'd just get a Winchester model 70 in 270 Winchester and be done looking. The only question I would deliberate over is whether to get the Featherweight or the Sporter. Either way, it would have a Walnut stock. But that's just my view.
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Old June 5, 2018, 04:22 AM   #15
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KMSW,

JMR40 is right for the most part. Where i differ is that you don't need, or really want, to shoot a 160gr bullet out of the 7mm-08 for deer.
For deer the most accepted bullet weights are 120, and 140 gr.
And the bc for a decent 140gr. 7mm bullet are about what a good 168gr 30 cal bullet.
Hence there is less recoil.
My typical load out of my 7mm-08AI, Stevens 200 with 22" barrel would push a 140gr. Berger VLD Hunting at 2, 836 fps.
With RL17 it was 2,916.

As for barrel length for the RM, 24" is the usually accepted, but Mossburg's Patriot uses a 22".
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Old June 5, 2018, 08:41 AM   #16
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KMSW831, I live in Co and hunt elk/deer just about every year. All deer tags are draw,same with antelope,bear so some years may not draw.

Elk I would up bullet weight with 7-08 and use same bullet on deer. Here in Co we can draw buck tag same season as elk. I shoot 284 long action and I shoot 160gr AB same with 280AI.

If you hunting AZ then Mt be lot easier using one bullet. If you have back up rifle you could that. Might want to consider having one if going out of state.
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Old June 5, 2018, 01:53 PM   #17
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I see lots of good suggestions for lots of decent cartridges.
My first choice would be the .308 Win. with the 7-08 a distant second place.
My reasoning is like the 30-06,you can find .308 just about anywhere. The 7-08 maybe not so much.

I have several rifles in .308 with barrels running 18.5", 20" and 22". I've taken deer as far out as 426 long paced with the 20" gun and 150 gr. Sierra. No idea what the velocity was as no chronograph back in 1973. Took another deer at 250 yards with the 18.5" gun shooting the 165 gr. Speer hot Core at 2550 FPS. (The only load that gun will shoot and give usable groups. Long story.)

I've shot a few 7-08s but never hunted with one. I do work with a 7x57 mauser that I load to 7-08 velocity and have a load with the 150 gr. Nosler at 2700 FPS that is accurate in the 7x57 and just may use it for my elk hunt this year.

I've only shot one elk way out yonder (530 yards laser measured) and that was with a .300 Win. mag pushing a 200 gr. bullet at 2900 FPS. One shot, DRT. Another with a .35 Whelen at 350 yards and you just got the entire list of my longer ranged shots which I prefer not to take. Most elk have been at 200 yards or less and deer have been taken from 6 feet (don't ask. I stepped on him while he was trying to hide.) to the 426 paced shot I mentioned. Prior to 1973 I used the 30-06 and switched to the .308 in 1973.

I can't say much about elk hunting in AZ, drawing tags almost takes an act of God. I have hunted area 1 a few times and shots can be quite long. That's where I had my 530 yard shot.
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Old June 5, 2018, 07:58 PM   #18
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Lived in Az. many years and my go to large game gun is a Winchester model 70 featherweight in .30-06. Lots of different loaded ammunition options and accurate farther out than any range I'm willing to shoot at.
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Old June 6, 2018, 09:33 AM   #19
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Welcome to TFL!

There are many cartridges and rifles that can do what you need. It really depends on a lot of a different things. So let's try to break this down a bit.

Rifles there are several to choose from in the light weight catagory. Savage Light Weight Hunter, Tikka T3x Lite, and Kimber Hunter are what I'd call entry level light weight rifles as they all cost less than $800 for the rifle and will keep you under 7 lbs when adding most optics.

Mid range priced rifles I'd look to Kimber Montana primarily. You can pick up a used one often times for around $900 and new for less than $1200. Other rifles in this price range I'd look for on the used market would be a Remington 700TI and a Forbes rifles.

As for rifles above $1200 again look to Kimber Adirondack, Mountain Ascent, or Sub Alpine as well as the Barrett Fieldcraft. I'd lean more towards the Fieldcraft from the reports I've been seeing from actual users. You just can't build a light weight rifle cheaper than any of the rifle I mentioned.

If you're willing to spend the money to have a back packing rifle built I suggest your search begin and end with Melvin Forbes and New Ultra Light Arms. Be prepared to spend between $3,000-5,000 with him on the rifle alone. However, it'll be a rifle built by the premier light rifle builder in America.


Cartridges depend on if you're going to rely on factory ammunition or not. If you're only going to shoot factory ammunition then for short action cartridges I'd go .308 Win, 6.5 Creedmoor, and 7mm-08 Re in that order. I like the .308 a little better for elk, but the other two cartridges are certainly capable.

For long action cartridges that are non magnum then the .30-06 and .270 are all I'd look at. Both work just fine in 22" barrels, and you could probably work up to 20-30 rounds a day at the range without too much issue. They will be a tougher to shoot though for that many rounds though than any of the short action cartridges.

Even if you do reload I'd probably stick to these cartridges. Forgetting to bring the proper ammo on a hunt can and does happen, I've done it once. In a hurry to leave on a last minute OTC cow elk hunt I grabbed a box of reloads for my .270 Win and when I got to my camp site realized I'd grabbed a50 rounds of 90 grain reloads. I was able to run 25 miles back into town and grab a box of 150 grain ammo shoot a few rounds to adjust my scope, and kill a cow elk at 250 yards two days later. I didn't have to drive five hours back home to get my proper ammunition or miss out on a hunt.
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Old June 6, 2018, 10:49 AM   #20
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If it were me, I'd be looking at 7mm08 or 280 Rem... with a the edge to the 280 if I was going to be doing a fair amount of Elk hunting. It will handle the heavier bullets better and (as you stated) long vs short action really isn't that big of a deal.

And my choice in rifle would be to base it on a Winchester Model 70 or Remington 700 and customize to your heart's content.
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Old June 8, 2018, 04:24 PM   #21
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That's pretty much where I've landed. Sold on 7mm08 or .280 and which one will likely depend on what comes up. I like the 7mm08 for the short action, though I think that's mostly moot. I like it because it is so efficient out of a shorter barrel, big plus. And factory ammo is readily available and there are hotter factory load options.

.280, I'm not sure how it does out of shorter barrel? Does a 22" barrel limit the round to where there is no difference between it and a th 08?

I know most factory .280 loads are a bit weak, only 100-150fps faster than 08 at a given weight, but you can juice it up hand loading to being quote bit hotter than 08 with the heavier bullets, so that extends the versatility once I start loading for the round.

Either way, both look good. 7mm08 gets the convenience and availability nod, .280 gets the range and versatility once handloading nod.
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Old June 8, 2018, 04:33 PM   #22
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Woaaa!!! A Forbes for $1,200???

I'd jump on that bandwagon in a heartbeat!!!
Might have to sell my truck, but gotta have priorities!!!
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Old June 8, 2018, 05:00 PM   #23
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Do you have a budget in mind?

I have built a couple of awesome light hunting rifles in 6.5 CM with carbon fiber barrels and fiberglass stocks. The parts and labor aren't cheap. I also did a couple that way in 6.5 SAUM but that's definitely more a hand loaders round.

As for recoil, a muzzle brake helps at the range and can be replaced with thread protector or silencer for hunts if the noise is bothersome.

I would tend to agree with 6.5 CM or 7mm08 but there are many great options
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Old June 8, 2018, 05:56 PM   #24
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Ah, the budget. I'm torn on that. Part of me wants to get a rifle and scope for 1k and go hunting and not over think it.

The other part wants to spend 3k on a build, lol.

I'll probably end up doing both, so that I can take my time on the build. We'll see.

Before I started posting in forums and asking around, I'd come up with this just from googling;

KRG Bravo Chasis
- Tikka T3 action – 389.00
- Rem 700 w standard backbone - $345
- Rem 700/w3 backbone (large recoil lugs) - $399 - prob this on as it accepts
magpul mags too

Remington 700 Action
- PTG Blueprinted - $675
- North West Action Works, trued - $625

Lilja stainless, fluted bbl - $530
Criterion stainless, non flueted -$375 (fluted?)

AICS Mags
- Magpul - $33

Trigger
- Jewell rem 700 w/safety - $259
- Timney rem 700 w/safety - $145


So, that's a cut and paste from some quick googling I did one night. That puts me between $1500 and $1900 for the rifle. Even less if I did a trued action and stock trigger from a place like northland shooters supply.

Then a couple mags, a sling, whatever odds and ends I don't know I need due to ignorance and then a scope, which I'll be posting about sometime soon lol.

I'm ok with that pricee range. The caveat is a don't know what I don't know. You guys spend that much, you're getting what you want because you know what you want.

I don't have enough experience to say, this is the kind of stock I like or whatever, so I might be dropping a couple grand on a rifle then saying, crap, this I should have done x, y or z.

Hence the interest in doing what others have suggested and just getting a rem 700 or or winchester mod 70 etc in .280 or 7mm08 or 6.5cm and a $500 scope and getting some time under my belt. That might be the smarter choice, though not as fun or sexy.

Last edited by KMSW831; June 8, 2018 at 06:04 PM.
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Old June 8, 2018, 08:28 PM   #25
Pathfinder45
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Join Date: January 7, 2008
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Well, if my pockets were that deep, I would start looking for a decent pre-War model 70 Winchester.
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