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Old May 22, 2018, 07:29 AM   #1
Bartholomew Roberts
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The U.S. Army’s Unicorn Rifle

The U.S. Army is seeking its “Next Generation Squad Automatic Rifle”
to replace both the carbine and the SAW in the squad role. This rifle is described on page 16 of this Powerpoint and the unclassified requirements are in this notice: https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportun...=core&_cview=0

Among the high points, you’ll notice the rifle comes with an integral suppressor, an unspecified “mid-caliber cartridge with 75-100k PSI chamber pressures.” Along with this, the minimum barrel life is 10,000 rounds with no more than a 10% degradation in dispersion and an overall length of no more than 35 inches with buttstock collapsed. And just in case that doesn’t sound like a tall enough order, it should also be capable of firing a two shot burst with both rounds impacting within 1” at 100m.

You’ll also note that there are classified requirements as to hit probability and hit incapacitation (the latter using ARDEC’s new modeling to compute). The rumor mill says at least one of the proposed cartridges is a telescoped polymer-cased 6.8mm tungsten 125gr bullet at 3,500fps from a 16” barrel.

Of course, there are many dead and broken dreams on the path from Army powerpoint to functional rifle; but it looks like the Army is planning for some revolutionary change rather than evolutionary.
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Old May 22, 2018, 09:18 AM   #2
Art Eatman
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To avoid throat erosion, the barrel will be made of Unobtanium.
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Old May 22, 2018, 10:25 AM   #3
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I see this going nowhere. Just another wasteful project to keep the US military-industrial complex chugging along and sucking at the taxpayer's teat.
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Old May 22, 2018, 10:51 AM   #4
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Wow

Boy that really does set the bar pretty high.

Not sure how long it will be before we see anything quite like that.

Also not sure what sort of metallurgical restraints as far as barrel materials goes. 75 to 100K sounds pretty insane.
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Old May 22, 2018, 06:56 PM   #5
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Keeps those useless captains, lite colonels & colonels off the streets.
Insane budgets wasted, then $52 billion they didn't even ask for dumped in there laps, even the strangest ideas are getting dump trucks full of money...

Crane is trying to reinvent the wheel, literally...
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Old May 22, 2018, 09:46 PM   #6
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Sounds....interesting. I keep thinking someone has developed some new classified powder.
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Old May 22, 2018, 10:54 PM   #7
Count Les Neins
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Good thing they're going for an "intelligent rail". Just hope it doesn't cost what the Pentagon
spends on a "substantial screwdriver"...
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Old May 23, 2018, 12:39 AM   #8
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Of course, there are many dead and broken dreams on the path from Army powerpoint to functional rifle
And that pretty much sums up the DoD's Squad Automatic Rifle/Weapon programs from the past 45 years. They want a rifle that shoots a bazillion rounds per minute and weighs nothing, shoots ammo that weighs nothing and will penetrate an M1 Abrams from end to end, then fold down to a small table with an umbrella so a soldier can eat his meal. Just in the time I have been around, I have seen this idea burn taxpayer money 6 times that come to mind (if I thought about it I could likely come up with a few more, but the thought of all the wasted money makes me sick).
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Old May 23, 2018, 07:35 AM   #9
Bartholomew Roberts
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I noticed they didn’t list any cost requirement. It does make me wonder though... how many of those individual items they are seeking have been demonstrated at some scale? Is it all just wishful thinking or is some of this stuff maturing?

I know LSAT has been around forever and seems to be doing well. However, the barrel life for that kind of cartridge suggests some pretty amazing and unremarked advances in metallurgy.
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Old May 23, 2018, 07:50 AM   #10
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I know LSAT has been around forever and seems to be doing well.
14 years and still no adopted weapon (or anything close) to show for it.

Yes, the LSAT is doing very well at burning through taxpayer dollars and lining someone's pockets.
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Old May 23, 2018, 11:46 AM   #11
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Just another wasteful project to keep the US military-industrial complex chugging along and sucking at the taxpayer's teat.
Exactly. Meanwhile the boys are forced to soldier on with an inadequate caliber designed for hunting prairie dogs.
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Old May 23, 2018, 05:43 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scorch View Post
And that pretty much sums up the DoD's Squad Automatic Rifle/Weapon programs from the past 45 years. They want a rifle that shoots a bazillion rounds per minute and weighs nothing, shoots ammo that weighs nothing and will penetrate an M1 Abrams from end to end, then fold down to a small table with an umbrella so a soldier can eat his meal. Just in the time I have been around, I have seen this idea burn taxpayer money 6 times that come to mind (if I thought about it I could likely come up with a few more, but the thought of all the wasted money makes me sick).
They got rid of some pretty impressive SAWs, in the process, also. They could
have tweaked both the BAR, and the M60, and they just abandoned them.
Stories I heard about the BAR were when that started firing, there were
butt-holes, and elbows, and dead people. IMO, many times the army makes a change for the sake of change.
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Old May 23, 2018, 06:32 PM   #13
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You do know this is "old news"....
This solicitation was put out one year ago, with submissions requested last July.
Unicorn, it likely is. Under technology of which we're aware, I don't see it being possible.
I do find it somewhat interesting that it could field a non-standard round, likely something in the 6-6.8 mm. realm. But that's a real disadvantage when the NGSAW gunner runs out of ammo, and he can't use 5.56 mags as currently happens.

But 20% reduction in ammo weight, while requiring tremendous energy retention at range- sure seems a nonstarter. All in a 12 lb machinegun...and the M249 currently is 17 lbs empty.
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Old May 23, 2018, 11:46 PM   #14
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But that's a real disadvantage when the NGSAW gunner runs out of ammo, and he can't use 5.56 mags as currently happens.
Are you aware of this actually occurring? My understanding is the SAW does not really run the mags well. Besides, if your unit is running low on ammo feeding the SAW probably isn't a priority.
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Old May 24, 2018, 11:16 PM   #15
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Quote:
Batholomew Roberts wrote:
"...cartridge with 75-100k PSI chamber pressures..."
...with light-weight alloys.

Alloy steels can get to the lower end of that range, but to reach the upper end and still be "lightweight" suggests exotic materials like Titanium.
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Old May 24, 2018, 11:41 PM   #16
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Interesting. The really high bar they've set says to me that they are happy with what they have and only something truly amazing is going to make them consider switching.
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Old May 25, 2018, 07:38 AM   #17
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When DOW made the powder for the M-16's ammunition years ago, I wonder if every else assumed science wasn't capable of such feats too?
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Old May 25, 2018, 08:57 AM   #18
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Having personally blown up an AR myself--my inexpert opinion is that most barrels/chambers are already well capable of handling these pressures--even significantly beyond. The real problem is how bad will the consequences be when the inevitable malfunction occurs.
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Old May 25, 2018, 10:44 AM   #19
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Interesting. The really high bar they've set says to me that they are happy with what they have and only something truly amazing is going to make them consider switching.
This has been the case for years. Back during the OICW program, if I remember correctly, a baseline was set that a replacement for the M16/M4 had to be 150% more effective to be considered for adoption.

Of course, such a rifle doesn't exist with any current technology. But that doesn't stop the .gov from continuing to burn through taxpayer dollars over and over again to prove this.
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Old May 25, 2018, 10:56 AM   #20
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But that doesn't stop the .gov from continuing to burn through taxpayer dollars over and over again to prove this.
How do I get in on this gov contracting business?
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Old May 25, 2018, 12:18 PM   #21
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To be fair to the OICW program, it was massively successful in the video game world and has led to the experimental, limited deployment of a slightly reduced version of half of that system. So, there’s that going for it.
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Old May 26, 2018, 11:09 PM   #22
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To be fair to the OICW program, it was massively successful in the video game world
I'm glad our tax dollars paid for that while our servicemen and servicewomen still don't get the communications, electronics integration, armored vehicles, tactical intelligence-gathering methods, body armor, mental health care, VA care, and financial support that they need.
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Old May 27, 2018, 09:54 AM   #23
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Im sure that a Stormtrooper Blaster rifle is in the works.....because its secret...and some of us know these things.... Reversed Alien tech...
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Old May 27, 2018, 10:30 AM   #24
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A plasma rifle in the 40watt range????
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Old May 27, 2018, 12:03 PM   #25
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DE weapons! ⚡️
They got to push the envelope, to get the next best thing. I guess.
I believe that some one tried titanium barrels,(s&w? Maybe?)
They derifled after a while, far quicker then a normal steel if I’m remembering rigjt
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