Price gouging handgun sales

[FITASC]

Florida has the same thing during emergencies; EXCEPT, after Michael, the folks in Tallahassee allowed all of the refugees who lost everything to be kicked out of their $79/night hotel rooms for several days because it was FSU's homecoming and the hotels wanted to get their $500/night rate for that game. But that wasn't gouging, nor is it when they have graduation and the rates are jacked like that as well.
I had emergency relief workers sleeping on my living room floor because of that BS.

But, if you watch that video I linked, it is explained WHY it is not only NOT gouging, but how it actually helps folks the most.

I know most here who think folks are gouging them will seem to have NO issue making a huge profit when they sell a used car, their house or anything else.

It is called Capitalism and the law of Capitalism is Supply and Demand. The LAST thing we need is more Government interference. I remember when Katrina hit; by the time FEMA removed its head from a dark nether region, Walmart, Publix and other companies already had truckloads of supplies there.

As to a living wage? Seriously? That sounds like someone fighting for a raise in the minimum wage. Who gets to decide what that is? Do you know what his living expenses are? My brother makes more than I did when I was working - but he has 3 kids in college and a fourth in private school, school loans and a huge mortgage - I have none of that - does that mean I shouldn't be allowed to make as much?
Stop thinking like Communists and embrace our economic system - those gun stores need to charge what they do to survive these turbulent times
As has been stated, if YOU do not want to pay their price, please step out of line so the person behind you who does can buy what they need - THAT is how this works, AND prevents hoarders who already have too much from preventing folks who have none from getting some and who are willing to pay that asking price.

[stinkeypete]

This idea that unbridled capitalism is a viable system only thrives because people do not bother to learn from the past. Each regulation and restriction was the result of A PROBLEM that was being addressed and a solution was passed in to law by our (in my case) American democratic system.

It’s true that times change and situations evolve and laws must adapt, but promoting the idea that no regulations at all is the solution is anarchy.

Calling things “communist” shows a real lack of understanding of the concept of communism: for example, why should I buy an overpriced handgun when I can just go to the local dispensary and check out a nice Tokarev and a stack of ammo to use for as long as I need for free? Why buy dies and progressive press when I can just go to the local sports center and use theirs whenever I feel like making ammo? Why should I have to pay for my own helicopter when we can all toss money in the hat and build roads and bridges for everyone to use for free? What should old people be sleeping in the streets if they are not lucky enough to have an excellent family and the good luck to acquire wealth? Lots of people work very hard but don’t strike it rich. We could all throw some money in the hat when we are young and when we are old have a retirement safety net.

The concept that American capitalism is in any way “free market” is patently absurd. We have regulations not because people sit around thinking up laws to pass but because abuses occur and society decides as best it can on regulations to address those abuses.

Someone overcharging on a CZ pistol is minor. What if, I dunno- how about Bass Pro Shops starts buying out or harassing every gun shop and ffl transfer agent in your area and any retailer or club that attempts to sell ammo? What if they undercut prices temporarily to drive competitors out of business, then slowly raise prices as high as they please just because they have wiped out the competition? That’s capitalism too- blame the little guy for not having the economic clout to compete against a national chain willing to destroy him simply to maintain pricing power without competition.

Some people simply don’t get it. Who decides all this stuff? It’s simple: society does. People who vote should have more influence and people who are wealthy enough to donate lots of money to influence the system should have less, but that’s not how things are right now. Things will change, they always do.

[TBM900]

Someone just outed themselves


But this little gem of naïveté stood out...

Each regulation and restriction was the result of A PROBLEM that was being addressed and a solution was passed in to law

...indicating someone hasn’t been paying attention.

[stinkeypete]

Name one single regulation that has been enacted that was not enacted to address a problem. Just one counterexample will prove me wrong.

[44 AMP]

Why is it that people get all bent out of shape if I decide to sell a $600 pistol for $859 but no one gives a snit if I want to sell my $800 Laze-boy chair for $1200??

There are ALWAYS alternative choices. They may not be what you desire, they may not be pleasant, or easy, but there are always alternatives.

[stinkeypete]

If you accept that doing without is always an alternative...

See Martin Shkreli, sentenced to 7 years in Federal Prison and fined 7.4 million dollars.

What did he do? He lead a company to buy up all manufacturing and marketing rights to Thiola and Chenodal, drugs used to treat a rare disease Cystinuria. Since he had raised a vast amount of capital to obtain a complete monopoly on these drugs and was the ONLY supply, he raised the price from $1.50 a pill to $20 a pill (thiola), simply because he could. Based on maneuvers to obtain a complete monopoly on a necessary drug for a rare and serious disease.

Other than moving to Europe, the alternative was pay the new price or not treat the disease... which would mean dealing with the chronic pain of abnormal and consistent kidney stones. If you have ever had ONE, you know how much pain that is.

After Shkreli was removed as CEO, his company introduced a new compounded drug and dropped the outrageous price substantially.

Now, if someone has a small stock of CZs and wants to charge whatever for them, I don't care. I am a CZ fan, by the way. There are plenty of alternatives. My CZ .22 rifle is already worth more than I paid for it new, and I don't mind that people spend outrageous money on rare Gibson guitars either. Doing without a curly maple Les Paul never hurt anyone and as nice as it is, there are plenty of .22 rifles out there for substantially less money. And plenty that cost much more, too.

This is not always the case, though.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Name one single regulation that has been enacted that was not enacted to address a problem. Just one counterexample will prove me wrong.

99% of regulation is anti-capitalist in nature. It is supported by the market leaders in the very industries being regulated in order to force out smaller businesses that can’t afford to absorb the regulatory costs in lawyers and lobbyists.

[Ignition Override]

Bartholomew Roberts: Very interesting comments you made.

[buck460XVR]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

Why is it that people get all bent out of shape if I decide to sell a $600 pistol for $859 but no one gives a snit if I want to sell my $800 Laze-boy chair for $1200??

I don't see anyone gettin' bent out of shape over the price of anything. What I do see is folks gettin' bent all outta shape trying to justify the doubling of the MSRP of a handgun during a time when some folks truly believe they need one.

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

There are ALWAYS alternative choices. They may not be what you desire, they may not be pleasant, or easy, but there are always alternatives.

The thing is, sometimes there isn't a alternative besides going without. Charging $8 for a hamburger when one can go down the street and get one for $4, is not gouging, but charging $25 for one when there is none around anywhere is. Do you pay or go without(the "always" alternative) and maybe you or your kids starve? Is it capitalism? Of course it is, no one here is denying it. Kinda like insulin. Pharmaceutical companies in this country rape folks because they need insulin or they die. No alternative. Their price gouging is easy and it's legal. Don't mean it's ethical. Just greed. That's what gouging is, it's just greed mixed with poor ethics.

[HiBC]

During my own harder times I have fed my family dead animals I picked up off the road. Fresh enough to not be stiff.
We could not afford McDonalds. I'm not a street beggar.

The 1911 I'm currently depending on I built with a $60 GI slide,a gift Vietnam era chrome lined GI barrel,and a Rock Island frame.
OK,I did fit it up nicely,it has a Trijicon front sight,and the rest of the parts are Cylinder and slide,Brown,Wilson,or Colt. And it has good magazines.

And I built it over time.

Maybe it was Stephan Covey? There is a time management matrix.

It scores Urgency vs Importance ,from "Not Urgent/Not Important through Urgent/Not important or Not Urgent/Important. Urgent /Important forces operating in crisis mode.

A business meeting urgent customer demands might have to pay overtime Urgency costs money.

Checking your oil might be not urgent/ important till the oil light comes on as you are tooling down the interstate.

The time to buy a SD handgun and ammo is well before you need it.It does not come with proficiency.

Well ahead of time,as a mature and thoughtful human adult,you recognise the need to be able to take care of yourself.

You allocate resources to fulfill that need. Likely,as a TFL member,you have a gun and some ammo.

If you do nothing till there is rioting in the streets,panic,etc, I'm sorry,but I just cant find much empathy for you if you can't find the latest gun article gun you are lusting for.
Buy your fire extinguisher before you need it.

"You can't always get what you want,but if you try,you might get what you need"

I shrug and stay home during the panics. I have wheel weights. I have brass,powder,primers.

And mostly I have the good sense to avoid trouble.

On capitalism vs regulation.....Many of the regulations that prevent capitalism from finding free market stability came via lobbyist bribing,by one method or another,members of Congress,who invest heavily,then behind closed doors,pick winners and losers. Thats how they become multi millionairs on a Congressman's salary.

Aside from useless whining,please tell me what process of "regulation" would you put in place to assure product availability,ALWAYS on the shelf,at any store that wants to stock,at the same stable price at each store.

How you do that? And,how do you "regulate" the shop who would lower its price to attract business?

In other words,would you "Regulate"competition out of the market??

I'll tell who will lose big time on that one.

We will.

Do you drive a Yugo?

On jacking up prices during a crisis over greed,like for water or insulin....Thats disgraceful.

In most cases a business must think of prospering long term. To do that,they must depend on a customer base.

Short term,you may be able to screw desperate people. But alienating your customer base will not serve greed long term.

Dick's Sporting Goods didn't gouge out of greed. They chose to discontinue some product.

And they alienated some customer base.

Football,baseball,basketball, will all go through losing some customer base.

I can forgive my LGS for having to charge $38 for a pound of Varget,I might be grateful he has it in stock,after the hoarder/resellers have cleared the shelves of $28 a pound Varget.

Might my emotions want to regulate the hoarder/resellers? Sometimes...but I cannot think of a way to do that without compromising Freedom.

No system is perfect.

I can refuse to buy from hoarder/resellers. I await their estate sale.

[Ignition Override]

When wholesale costs go up, if you don't raise your price a proportionate (etc) percentage, how do you know that you can cover the mortgage for your family in the future?

I've never owned a business, but demand Must be increasing wholesale prices as much as other prices.

A burglary took place this week at ShootPointBlank in Memphis, 30 guns were stolen.
If replacement prices somehow have gone up, retail prices must follow to some extent?

>>Imagine ammo costs for retail sellers (what they must pay).<<
Does anybody think that the widespread shortage of so many types of ammo has Not raised the dealer purchase costs due to simple demand?

[SHR970]

Tom Servo wrote: California is the only state I know of that has that specific statute, and even then, it only applies during a declared state of emergency.

(That particular law forbids raising prices more than 10%. I can see where that would be a very real problem if the replacement cost for the retailer goes up more than 10%. In that case, I'd imagine they just don't order product, which would make shortages worse.)

In the other states with "price gouging" laws, only "essential" goods are affected.

And I had wrote

Your state law determines what is "GOUGING".

and

And I happen to live in one of those 34 and the scenario presented in the OP IS in fact gouging in my state according to the PENAL Code. Specifically CPC 396.

That said how many of those other states have declared gun / ammo sales ESSENTIAL? Either the national declaration or the state declaration of "state of emergency" would then cover that scenario.

Tom Servo also wrote:(That particular law forbids raising prices more than 10%. I can see where that would be a very real problem if the replacement cost for the retailer goes up more than 10%. In that case, I'd imagine they just don't order product, which would make shortages worse.)

I also covered this.

The cost of new inventory is a defacto defense to the new higher prices. Bring the receipts and not only do you have a defense but also a challenge for court costs.

Certain grocery items like beef & pork had their prices briefly go sky high (like $15.99 lb. for chuck steak) but they suddenly went back in line quietly. Here G&A have gone up but are now on an "as available" basis. Want to import it in???? Again highly regulated and if you want to pay top$$$ even the big boys are going to be held to these laws just like they are held to the various other bans & restrictions if Kali thinks that they can bleed them for some $$.
But if you want to do a transfer and buy my Rem 58 for $1500 I won't even be touched as a private seller.

[gaseousclay]

Dick's Sporting Goods didn't gouge out of greed. They chose to discontinue some product

I noticed this last week. Stopped in their store last week hoping to score some ammo but was disappointed to see their entire firearms and hunting department completely removed from their store. I will not be buying from them now

[SHR970]

F Dick's Sporting Goods. They came into my area and didn't even bother with a Hunting or Fishing Dept. I was looking forward to a competitor in the region. Their loss as So. Cal has fleets of Fishing Boats that cater to anglers not to mention a real hunting community.

[SIGSHR]

It's only price gouging when it involves what you think is a necessity.

[HiBC]

OK,well,the comments on Dicks indicate you are not a powerless victim

Instead of crying about price increases,those who exploit times of chaos by extreme price increases have customers with long memories.

You can put them on your "Dicks List"

[TBM900]

Originally Posted by commiepete

Name one single regulation that has been enacted that was not enacted to address a problem. Just one counterexample will prove me wrong.

Your non sequiture noted...
I never said a word about "reasons".



I have a problem, I'm dead broke...
You have money so I use a gun and take it.
Now I have money, problem addressed.



I run a city, it's dead broke...
You have money so I use regulation to take it.
Now the city has money, problem addressed.






Oh look, here's another "reason"...









Someone had a problem...













Someone enacted a regulation...















Problem solved...

[TBM900]

Originally Posted by buck460XVR

Pharmaceutical companies in this country rape folks because they need insulin or they die. No alternative. Their price gouging is easy and it's legal. Don't mean it's ethical. Just greed. That's what gouging is, it's just greed mixed with poor ethics.

Then why don't you create your own pharmaceutical company?
Show us how it can be easily done with good ethics and no greed?
Were all waiting...

[HiBC]

Name one single regulation that has been enacted that was not enacted to address a problem.

A problem that exists in the mind of the beholder,or regulator,is not necessarily a problem to the rest of the citizens .

And it does not necessarily justify a regulation.

How about the ITAR reg . If I have a gunsmith business.I would be required to have a permit costing thousands of dollars and keep a mass of extra records if I did ANY machine work that improves a gun./ That would include drill and tap,rebarrel,cut and crown,or fit a brake.

ITAR is about import/export.This stupid reg applies to smiths who do no import export. The local gun store/local gunsmith.

Thats just one example where the only "problem" exists in political agendas.

And do not tell me "the majority of people want". Most bureaucratic regulations are not created by legislative process.No House vote,Senate Vote,executive signature. Just written by unelected bureaucrats.

Remember the Constitution? Supreme Law of the Land? Its not written to protect alleged poll results. Its written to protect the individual liberty of the minority .The lone individual from the tyranny of the majority.

I'll agree most regulations are bought and sold to address real or imagined problems that the government likely created.

And the price of each one is another piece of our fading liberty,gone forever.

[TBM900]

Originally Posted by stinkeypete

See Martin Shkreli, sentenced to 7 years in Federal Prison and fined 7.4 million dollars.

What did he do? He lead a company to buy up all manufacturing and marketing rights to Thiola and Chenodal, drugs used to treat a rare disease Cystinuria. Since he had raised a vast amount of capital to obtain a complete monopoly on these drugs and was the ONLY supply, he raised the price from $1.50 a pill to $20 a pill (thiola), simply because he could. Based on maneuvers to obtain a complete monopoly on a necessary drug for a rare and serious disease.

That is blatantly FALSE.
It was not the reason he was charged.
It was an entirely different and unrelated matter.

Do you agree with jailing people for profiting?

[buck460XVR]

Originally Posted by TBM900

Then why don't you create your own pharmaceutical company?
Show us how it can be easily done with good ethics and no greed?
Were all waiting...

Don't hold your breath....I have nuttin' to prove.

Lots of companies and retailers out there that make a good profit and a good living, with good business ethics. Funny how those same pharmaceutical companies sell their insulin at much lower prices outside of the U.S. where raping insurance is not so rampant. Also funny how folks are quick to jump on the bandwagon dismissing Cheaper Than Dirt for their price gouging, but when it comes to their store and their pockets........not so much. Doubling the MSRP of a handgun during a time when it's readily apparent that so many folks in the country right now think having a gun for protection is a necessity(as I believe most of us here do too), is a far cry from ethical. Thinking otherwise puts one in the same fantasy world as your sig line......

[TBM900]

Originally Posted by buck460XVR

Don't hold your breath....I have nuttin' to prove.

Obviously you do since you are going on about profits, ethics, rape, gouging, etc... not to mention your projection.
All in an effort to tell others how to live their lives and run their business.
So yes clearly you do.

Thinking otherwise puts one in the same fantasy world as your sig line.

Okay, then set me into reality...
What is the profit percentage that you deem as ethical?
The one that isn't greedy, rape, or gouging?

[vito]

A small local gun shop is still selling guns at what I consider very reasonable prices. While I am not in the market for a new gun right now, I will not forget that he was not taking undue advantage of his customers during this panic buying period, and will give him my business even if I could get the same gun at a lower price online. I would buy ammo from him as well, but lately the only ammo he seems to have available is some unknown brand stuff from Eastern Europe, and I don't really need ammo bad enough to try some unknown cheap junk.

[FITASC]

The thing is, sometimes there isn't a alternative besides going without. Charging $8 for a hamburger when one can go down the street and get one for $4, is not gouging, but charging $25 for one when there is none around anywhere is. Do you pay or go without(the "always" alternative) and maybe you or your kids starve? Is it capitalism? Of course it is, no one here is denying it. Kinda like insulin. Pharmaceutical companies in this country rape folks because they need insulin or they die. No alternative. Their price gouging is easy and it's legal. Don't mean it's ethical. Just greed. That's what gouging is, it's just greed mixed with poor ethics.

No, but what it does do is give others a reason to invest and create competition which results in prices going down. If you are the only place selling burgers for $25, someone else will come along and start selling them for $20 - then you'll either have to compete or go out of business and then things will settle where the market determines they need to be. It is the buyer who finally sets the selling price, not the seller. The seller starts with their asking price (always high as it is easier to go down than up) and prices accordingly until sales dictate a change.

[FITASC]

Lots of companies and retailers out there that make a good profit and a good living, with good business ethics. Funny how those same pharmaceutical companies sell their insulin at much lower prices outside of the U.S. where raping insurance is not so rampant.

Maybe you should research what a drug company in THIS country has to go through to bring as product to market - the decades of trials and billions of dollars - all because of the FDA; other countries have a lot less Federal regulation allowing faster to market timing with less red tape and as a result - less costs.