Federal AE .223 accuracy?

TacticoolMallNinja · March 30, 2018, 02:52 PM

So what's the typical group size for federal AE at 100 yards? i've been getting 2moa on average wondering if that's normal for this particular round, 3-9 scope bench rest. I bought 2 boxes from walmart it came in this grey/green box, 55 grain.

Oh BTW I can shoot and my scope ain't loose

Eazyeach · March 30, 2018, 03:03 PM

2” is pretty typical.

Marco Califo · March 30, 2018, 03:03 PM

For bargain priced, FMJ, what exactly were you expecting?
I would say 2 MOA is about right, good shooting, bulk ammo.
This forum is about reloading so your thread is likely to get moved to one for loaded Ammo.
If the brass is Federal commercial like I believe it is, I have a 1,000 of those empties, and they are not high on my list to reload. The brass is softer than LC.

TacticoolMallNinja · March 30, 2018, 03:33 PM

Oh well thanks folks I just wanted to make sure it ain't my gun, if yall were getting sub moa with it then i'd be concerned haha

NWPilgrim · March 30, 2018, 04:09 PM

2 MOA on bulk ammo is darn good. As a reloader, I see a lot of variance in the factory bulk ammo: bullets ogive is noticably variable, seating depth of bullet, and I suspect some powder charges are not quite right either. Fine for plinking fun or shooting steel. I usually get closer to 3 MOA with bulk.

There are actually two versions of Federal brass from what I have read. If the "FC" is large, like on their commercial ammo, it is softer than most and should be avoided for reloading much. But their small "FC" brass is better and is found in the Eagle Tactical ammo. It seems to me some boxes if Eagle even had LC brass like the XM193, but I could be mistaken.

TacticoolMallNinja · March 30, 2018, 04:20 PM

I dont reload but it's good to know the limitations of these bulk ammo, gonna try some match grade stuff next week and see what happens

Tallest · March 30, 2018, 04:59 PM

I love that stuff, actually! I was getting sub MOA from an 18” AR Stoner barrel with it. One 3 shot group, my best ever, was 0.427”

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

**Unclenick** · March 30, 2018, 05:41 PM

Like other loads, if you have a barrel length and profile for which it has the right barrel time to serve as a tuned load, it'll be unexpectedly good. Otherwise, not so much.

Mobuck · March 30, 2018, 08:47 PM

"Federal AE" what bullet?
We're using Federal AE 50 grain JHP in a couple of AR's and 50 grain "tipped varmint" in a couple of others and getting cloverleafs regularly. Both knock the stuffing out of coyotes out to however far you can hit them.

TacticoolMallNinja · March 30, 2018, 10:48 PM

I've also heard the varmint tips are pretty good, I was shooting ordinary FMJs and my gun didn't like it very much

NWPilgrim · March 30, 2018, 11:43 PM

What wasn't indicated in OP is the number of shots per group, nor the rifle used. For me, a 10-shot group from a stock A4 20" under 3 MOA is pretty good for bulk ammo. I don't even consider 3 shots to be a "group". So I would consider 2 MOA pretty decent for a brand of bulk out of any rifle. Handloading I wouldn't even look at a load combination that was 2 MOA, but factory bulk that's pretty good assuming at least 7-shot group.

Water-Man · March 31, 2018, 12:44 AM

Federal AE is one of the more accurate bulk ammo loads.

Mobuck · March 31, 2018, 07:35 AM

IMHO
3-5 shots is enough to determine the accuracy potential of hunting rifles/ammo.
Ten shots is mostly a challenge of the shooter.

hdwhit · March 31, 2018, 12:23 PM

Quote:

So what's the typical group size for federal AE at 100 yards?

That depends on the firearm and the shooter.

In general, all domestic (and most foreign) commercial ammunition is capable of greater accuracy than the firearm/shooter combination shooting it is able to exploit.

RAfiringline · March 31, 2018, 12:33 PM

Ammo matters for groups.

A couple years ago, I tested some ammo for 5 shot groups, 100 yds, DPMS AR 16" barrel.

Federal gold medal match 69g 1.5" group ($1+ per rd.)
Geco 55g 1.56" (~$.40 / rd)

Tula, Brown Bear, Fiocchi, Freedom reloads: around 3+" groups.

T. O'Heir · March 31, 2018, 12:45 PM

There's no such thing as a typical group size for Federal AE or any other brand. Every rifle will shoot every brand differently.
"...The brass is softer than..." Federal brass is well known for being softer than other brands. Mind you, Federal also manages the LC plant, as I recall.
"...Ammo matters for groups..." Yep, but so does the trigger, sights, barrel, rest and even the weather.

RAfiringline · March 31, 2018, 01:55 PM

>There's no such thing as a typical group size for Federal AE or any other brand. Every rifle will shoot every brand differently.
"...The brass is softer than..." Federal brass is well known for being softer than other brands. Mind you, Federal also manages the LC plant, as I recall.

"...Ammo matters for groups..." Yep, but so does the trigger, sights, barrel, rest and even the weather. <

Well, there's some real insight. I was wondering why my groups weren't as good when shooting in high winds with gloves on. Now I know it's not the ammo.

Stats Shooter · March 31, 2018, 10:36 PM

Quote:

3-5 shots is enough to determine the accuracy potential of hunting rifles/ammo.
Ten shots is mostly a challenge of the shooter.

Mobuck, I have to disagree here. 5 shots can tell you if a load won't work...I mean if a 5 shot group is 3 MOA you can rule it out. But, a 0.5" 5 shot groups doesn't mean it's a 1/2 MOA load. More data is necessary to determine that. Could in fact still be a 2MOA or 3 MOA load.

I have said many times, 20 shots without changing ANY other variables gets you to a point where the confidence interval is low enough that more shots makes only marginal improvements.

NWPilgrim · April 1, 2018, 04:17 AM

Well, yeah, shooting is a test of the shooter. News flash. It is not that strenuous or arduous to shoot ten rounds at one target!! Some people even practice shooting. Gasp!

Shooting multiple targets for testing does take patience and self discipline. If you want real ammo performance data you have to work for it, like anything worthwhile. 3 shots tells one very little except the shooter is not very patient or healthy I guess.

hagar · April 2, 2018, 10:20 AM

I had the same experience with the 50 grainers, death on coyotes. I had a streak going on over 30 coyotes, no misses, one shot one kill with those using my Remington VS.

One year I took that rifle to South Africa to do some jackal hunting. My friend there had a benchrest match, so I took the VS along. One of the top shots in SA shot a group of 10 shots with my rifle and the 50 grain AE ammo, and almost put them in one hole. He told me that the combo came close to beating the SA benchrest record for the factory rifle/ammo class. I used to buy them for $4/20 in the mid 90's, still have about 500 left.

2ndtimer · April 4, 2018, 01:00 AM

QUOTE]I've also heard the varmint tips are pretty good, I was shooting ordinary FMJs and my gun didn't like it very much[[/QUOTE]]

If you want accuracy, look for ammo with decent bullets. 55 gr fmj bullets are not designed for accuracy. Two inch groups for 5 shots at 100 yards from a rest is about as good as you can expect. If you want improved accuracy (and better performance on varmints) and don't want to spend $1.00 or more per round for match ammo, look at the Federal American Eagle Tipped Varmint ammo or the Fiocchi Extrema ammo with the 40 or 50 gr V-MAX bullets. I have had very good results with them in AR's, as well as bolt guns. You should be able to find them for around .50 per round, or even less on sale.

Road_Clam · April 4, 2018, 06:03 AM

Factory AE 556 ammo shoots about 2.7 moa from my WOA service rifle. My barrel is a 20" 1-7" twist. The AE 556 is some hot stuff (3075 from my 20" bbl) and my 1-7 is not the best match for this ammo.

Mobuck · April 4, 2018, 07:11 PM

"But, a 0.5" 5 shot groups doesn't mean it's a 1/2 MOA load. More data is necessary to determine that. Could in fact still be a 2MOA or 3 MOA load. "

Maybe so, but in 50 years of shooting I've not seen this happen. A small 3 or 5 shot group (from a hunting rifle) has always provided consistent performance by continuing to print small 3-5 shot groups on demand.

NWPilgrim · April 5, 2018, 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mobuck

"But, a 0.5" 5 shot groups doesn't mean it's a 1/2 MOA load. More data is necessary to determine that. Could in fact still be a 2MOA or 3 MOA load. "

Maybe so, but in 50 years of shooting I've not seen this happen. A small 3 or 5 shot group (from a hunting rifle) has always provided consistent performance by continuing to print small 3-5 shot groups on demand.

And in my 50 years of shooting I have see it happen plenty of times. 3 shots that are .5" today can shoot 1" next week, or .3' or 1.25". Statistics is a mathematical science. 3 shots by it self is near meaningless. Out of the next 100 shots fired eventually, those three represent just a random sample that is too small to say anything about the accuracy of the load. If you get ten targets of 3 shots each and they are all .5" in the same area then, yes that becomes significant. But if you overlay those ten targets on the same aiming point then I wager your cumulative group size is at least twice the size of the tree shot group by itself.

You can believe whatever you want, but three shots is not enough data points to have any degree of meaning in terms of ACTUAL accuracy. No authority of any kind reporting on accuracy performance uses a three shot group. That is anecdotal and not data.

azar92 · April 5, 2018, 11:07 AM

To further the discussion on group sizes to determine accuracy there is an interesting website, ballistipedia.com, that delves into this. One tidbit that I find interesting is when using extreme spread to determine the accuracy of a firearm/load how many shots is most efficient?

Efficient Estimators
"If our goal is to characterize a range statistic using the least number of shots then we should pick our group size carefully. Kolbe et. al. noted that for any desired error and confidence level it looked like 7-shot groups produced a significant estimate using the lowest number of total shots fired. Using our more extensive simulations of the coefficient of variation we can see now that 6-shot groups are actually the most efficient, and that 5-shot groups are practically as efficient (and for many scenarios identical).

4- and 8-shot groups are almost as efficient, but if you're shooting 3-shot groups or groups larger than 9 shots then you are wasting bullets." [Emphasis mine in 2nd paragraph]

March 30, 2018, 02:52 PM	#1
TacticoolMallNinja Junior Member Join Date: January 20, 2018 Posts: 12	Federal AE .223 accuracy? So what's the typical group size for federal AE at 100 yards? i've been getting 2moa on average wondering if that's normal for this particular round, 3-9 scope bench rest. I bought 2 boxes from walmart it came in this grey/green box, 55 grain. Oh BTW I can shoot and my scope ain't loose Last edited by Mal H; April 5, 2018 at 10:21 PM. Reason: Fix image link

March 30, 2018, 03:03 PM	#3
Marco Califo Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2011 Location: LA (Greater Los Angeles Area) Posts: 2,598	Loaded Ammo Question - Not Reloading For bargain priced, FMJ, what exactly were you expecting? I would say 2 MOA is about right, good shooting, bulk ammo. This forum is about reloading so your thread is likely to get moved to one for loaded Ammo. If the brass is Federal commercial like I believe it is, I have a 1,000 of those empties, and they are not high on my list to reload. The brass is softer than LC. __________________ ............

March 30, 2018, 05:41 PM	#8
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	Like other loads, if you have a barrel length and profile for which it has the right barrel time to serve as a tuned load, it'll be unexpectedly good. Otherwise, not so much. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

March 30, 2018, 11:43 PM	#11
NWPilgrim Senior Member Join Date: September 29, 2008 Location: Oregon Posts: 2,346	What wasn't indicated in OP is the number of shots per group, nor the rifle used. For me, a 10-shot group from a stock A4 20" under 3 MOA is pretty good for bulk ammo. I don't even consider 3 shots to be a "group". So I would consider 2 MOA pretty decent for a brand of bulk out of any rifle. Handloading I wouldn't even look at a load combination that was 2 MOA, but factory bulk that's pretty good assuming at least 7-shot group. __________________ "The ultimate authority ... resides in the people alone. ... The advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation ... forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition." - James Madison

March 31, 2018, 12:33 PM	#15
RAfiringline Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2014 Location: western US Posts: 290	Ammo matters for groups. A couple years ago, I tested some ammo for 5 shot groups, 100 yds, DPMS AR 16" barrel. Federal gold medal match 69g 1.5" group ($1+ per rd.) Geco 55g 1.56" (~$.40 / rd) Tula, Brown Bear, Fiocchi, Freedom reloads: around 3+" groups. __________________ Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything. You need to take your time, in a hurry. Wyatt Earp

March 30, 2018, 03:03 PM	#2
Eazyeach Senior Member Join Date: January 14, 2014 Posts: 706	2” is pretty typical.

March 30, 2018, 03:33 PM	#4
TacticoolMallNinja Junior Member Join Date: January 20, 2018 Posts: 12	Oh well thanks folks I just wanted to make sure it ain't my gun, if yall were getting sub moa with it then i'd be concerned haha

March 30, 2018, 04:09 PM	#5
NWPilgrim Senior Member Join Date: September 29, 2008 Location: Oregon Posts: 2,346	2 MOA on bulk ammo is darn good. As a reloader, I see a lot of variance in the factory bulk ammo: bullets ogive is noticably variable, seating depth of bullet, and I suspect some powder charges are not quite right either. Fine for plinking fun or shooting steel. I usually get closer to 3 MOA with bulk. There are actually two versions of Federal brass from what I have read. If the "FC" is large, like on their commercial ammo, it is softer than most and should be avoided for reloading much. But their small "FC" brass is better and is found in the Eagle Tactical ammo. It seems to me some boxes if Eagle even had LC brass like the XM193, but I could be mistaken.

March 30, 2018, 04:20 PM	#6
TacticoolMallNinja Junior Member Join Date: January 20, 2018 Posts: 12	I dont reload but it's good to know the limitations of these bulk ammo, gonna try some match grade stuff next week and see what happens

March 30, 2018, 04:59 PM	#7
Tallest Senior Member Join Date: January 23, 2016 Location: West of the Atlantic Posts: 418	I love that stuff, actually! I was getting sub MOA from an 18” AR Stoner barrel with it. One 3 shot group, my best ever, was 0.427” Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

March 30, 2018, 08:47 PM	#9
Mobuck Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2010 Posts: 6,846	"Federal AE" what bullet? We're using Federal AE 50 grain JHP in a couple of AR's and 50 grain "tipped varmint" in a couple of others and getting cloverleafs regularly. Both knock the stuffing out of coyotes out to however far you can hit them.

March 30, 2018, 10:48 PM	#10
TacticoolMallNinja Junior Member Join Date: January 20, 2018 Posts: 12	I've also heard the varmint tips are pretty good, I was shooting ordinary FMJs and my gun didn't like it very much

March 31, 2018, 12:44 AM	#12
Water-Man Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2008 Location: Jacksonville, FL Posts: 2,126	Federal AE is one of the more accurate bulk ammo loads.

March 31, 2018, 07:35 AM	#13
Mobuck Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2010 Posts: 6,846	IMHO 3-5 shots is enough to determine the accuracy potential of hunting rifles/ammo. Ten shots is mostly a challenge of the shooter.

March 31, 2018, 12:45 PM	#16
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	There's no such thing as a typical group size for Federal AE or any other brand. Every rifle will shoot every brand differently. "...The brass is softer than..." Federal brass is well known for being softer than other brands. Mind you, Federal also manages the LC plant, as I recall. "...Ammo matters for groups..." Yep, but so does the trigger, sights, barrel, rest and even the weather. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

March 31, 2018, 01:55 PM	#17
RAfiringline Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2014 Location: western US Posts: 290	>There's no such thing as a typical group size for Federal AE or any other brand. Every rifle will shoot every brand differently. "...The brass is softer than..." Federal brass is well known for being softer than other brands. Mind you, Federal also manages the LC plant, as I recall. "...Ammo matters for groups..." Yep, but so does the trigger, sights, barrel, rest and even the weather. < Well, there's some real insight. I was wondering why my groups weren't as good when shooting in high winds with gloves on. Now I know it's not the ammo. __________________ Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything. You need to take your time, in a hurry. Wyatt Earp

April 1, 2018, 04:17 AM	#19
NWPilgrim Senior Member Join Date: September 29, 2008 Location: Oregon Posts: 2,346	Federal AE .223 accuracy? Well, yeah, shooting is a test of the shooter. News flash. It is not that strenuous or arduous to shoot ten rounds at one target!! Some people even practice shooting. Gasp! Shooting multiple targets for testing does take patience and self discipline. If you want real ammo performance data you have to work for it, like anything worthwhile. 3 shots tells one very little except the shooter is not very patient or healthy I guess.

April 2, 2018, 10:20 AM	#20
hagar Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 2000 Location: Colombia, SC Posts: 745	I had the same experience with the 50 grainers, death on coyotes. I had a streak going on over 30 coyotes, no misses, one shot one kill with those using my Remington VS. One year I took that rifle to South Africa to do some jackal hunting. My friend there had a benchrest match, so I took the VS along. One of the top shots in SA shot a group of 10 shots with my rifle and the 50 grain AE ammo, and almost put them in one hole. He told me that the combo came close to beating the SA benchrest record for the factory rifle/ammo class. I used to buy them for $4/20 in the mid 90's, still have about 500 left. __________________ I don't have time for busy people

April 4, 2018, 01:00 AM	#21
2ndtimer Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2004 Location: Kennewick, WA Posts: 293	QUOTE]I've also heard the varmint tips are pretty good, I was shooting ordinary FMJs and my gun didn't like it very much[[/QUOTE]] If you want accuracy, look for ammo with decent bullets. 55 gr fmj bullets are not designed for accuracy. Two inch groups for 5 shots at 100 yards from a rest is about as good as you can expect. If you want improved accuracy (and better performance on varmints) and don't want to spend $1.00 or more per round for match ammo, look at the Federal American Eagle Tipped Varmint ammo or the Fiocchi Extrema ammo with the 40 or 50 gr V-MAX bullets. I have had very good results with them in AR's, as well as bolt guns. You should be able to find them for around .50 per round, or even less on sale. __________________ NRA Endowment Member

April 4, 2018, 06:03 AM	#22
Road_Clam Senior Member Join Date: November 21, 2013 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 1,695	Factory AE 556 ammo shoots about 2.7 moa from my WOA service rifle. My barrel is a 20" 1-7" twist. The AE 556 is some hot stuff (3075 from my 20" bbl) and my 1-7 is not the best match for this ammo. __________________ "To be old an wise you must have been young and stupid"

April 4, 2018, 07:11 PM	#23
Mobuck Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2010 Posts: 6,846	"But, a 0.5" 5 shot groups doesn't mean it's a 1/2 MOA load. More data is necessary to determine that. Could in fact still be a 2MOA or 3 MOA load. " Maybe so, but in 50 years of shooting I've not seen this happen. A small 3 or 5 shot group (from a hunting rifle) has always provided consistent performance by continuing to print small 3-5 shot groups on demand.

April 5, 2018, 11:07 AM	#25
azar92 Senior Member Join Date: April 16, 2009 Location: Utah Posts: 209	To further the discussion on group sizes to determine accuracy there is an interesting website, ballistipedia.com, that delves into this. One tidbit that I find interesting is when using extreme spread to determine the accuracy of a firearm/load how many shots is most efficient? Efficient Estimators "If our goal is to characterize a range statistic using the least number of shots then we should pick our group size carefully. Kolbe et. al. noted that for any desired error and confidence level it looked like 7-shot groups produced a significant estimate using the lowest number of total shots fired. Using our more extensive simulations of the coefficient of variation we can see now that 6-shot groups are actually the most efficient, and that 5-shot groups are practically as efficient (and for many scenarios identical). 4- and 8-shot groups are almost as efficient, but if you're shooting 3-shot groups or groups larger than 9 shots then you are wasting bullets." [Emphasis mine in 2nd paragraph]