Franklin BFS vs. Fostech Echo vs. Tac Con 3MR - Page 5

shortround60 · December 16, 2016, 09:41 PM

You're right, there is no selector switch. It simply snaps on and facilitates rapid fire.

SDF880 · December 16, 2016, 09:51 PM

My Fostech showed up yesterday. Too busy this week-end but as soon as I install and fire will post a report.

Good things come to those who wait?

Skans · December 27, 2016, 10:56 AM

Update - Fostech notified me that mine is ready to ship; I paid for it and expect it this week. IIRC, I made my 1st payment in March.

Skans · January 3, 2017, 07:21 PM

I received my Fostech Echo trigger within several days of paying my 2nd payment. Here are my thoughts, impressions, etc.

The trigger system is complex and has a fair number of parts. This can't be something easy to produce. It has what appears to be an Np3 type coating on most of the parts. Interestingly, the hammer uses three separate springs to operate it. The part, "trigger lock", that operates off of the bolt carrier pressing it forward is definitely not like a full-auto type sear. Can some genius figure out a way to modify this to fire full auto, perhaps, but it would be convoluted and difficult if not impossible. I was skeptical about this, but when I saw how it works, I get it. In fact, its sort of does the opposite of a full-auto sear - locks the trigger so that it can't slam fire.

The one drawback of the Echo is you have to use Fostech's bolt carrier which doesn't have the slick coating of the bolt carrier I replaced. I'm sure Fostech's bolt carrier is fine, however. Modifying a bolt carrier is something I could probably do, but there's not enough motivation for me to do this.

The first thing I did when I received the trigger was open the package and play with the trigger BEFORE READING THE DIRECTIONS. The directions tell you not to pull the trigger, which I discovered.....after I pulled the trigger. Of course, I played with the action, pulled the trigger and parts flew everywhere! I found all but one part.

The one part I lost was the pin that goes through the hole on the hammer and holds the two sprung steel struts. So, I made a new one.

I'm pretty pleased with the one I made, so I may or may not contact Fostech and try to buy a replacement part. I ended up turning and polishing a piece of steel made from a punch so that the sprung struts fit precisely in the polished grooves. I've cycled the installed action a number of times and it's smooth as glass and doesn't drift.

Installing the trigger, trigger lock and selector switch is easy, especially if you just follow the directions....and don't pull the trigger no matter how tempted you may be. There's a lot of force behind that hammer and you won't be able to contain the parts the first time you pull that trigger and decide to play with it.

Once installed, Semi, Safe and pull-release fire work perfectly. There's nothing to tune. If the trigger system proves to be durable as well, this is great system. It is a bit more sophisticated than the Franklin Binary (2nd Gen) with the addition of the trigger lock, which prevents hammer follow. However, I still like the Franklin Binary trigger which appears to be a pretty rugged design.

I'm going to find some time to do an extended range session with both trigger systems. I have to say, these two systems take AR's to the next level. So far, I'm pretty impressed.

nomad636 · January 3, 2017, 07:54 PM

Skans, good job making a new pin. That is like losing a detent spring in the middle of the desert.

Have you had an opportunity to shoot it yet? I'm looking forward to a video comparing the two!

Skans · January 4, 2017, 09:23 AM

I have not had the chance to shoot either rifle, the one with the Echo or the one with the Binary trigger, yet. I am working on clearing some range time to try both out so I can compare. I have worked the actions on both considerably to make sure the triggers are reliable. I'm not good with videos though, sorry.

Quote:

That is like losing a detent spring in the middle of the desert.

Worse! I hate to admit this, but I was so excited when I received the trigger system, that I opened it in my car and started checking it out there. I never even saw the hammer pin, and luckily found the two struts and springs. I looked and looked and looked - I think it got sucked into a black hole and vaporized.

I was able to figure out about what the pin looked like from videos and pictures posted on various websites. The one I made should work as good or better since I actually turned grooved recesses in it to fit the strut-arms and then polished them. We'll see.

Willie Lowman · January 4, 2017, 01:10 PM

Skans, how would you rate the two triggers?

On a scale of Colt factory M4 to Geissele, how smooth and crisp are the BFS and Echo?

Skans · January 4, 2017, 02:43 PM

Quote:

On a scale of Colt factory M4 to Geissele, how smooth and crisp are the BFS and Echo?

I got a chance to play with both systems side-by-side last night. No actual firing, just working the actions in my 2 AR's.

I can't comment on the Geissele as I've never tried one. In semi-auto mode, both Franklin and Fostech triggers compare nicely to the CMMG fire control parts. The AR in which I installed the Franklin Binary system previously had standard CMMG parts installed. The only AR that I still have in stock configuration is an older Colt SP1 Carbine - I really should do more side-by-side comparison against the older Colt. FWIW, my Sp1 Carbine's trigger felt very similar the CMMG parts.

In pull/release modes, the Franklin and Fostech have some discernible differences. With the Fostech Echo, you need to make sure you pull the Fostech trigger all the way to the rear for the release to function. If you are a little light on the trigger, the release won't engage, but the next pull will function just fine. When you do let the trigger reset the next pull functions just fine without having to manually cycle the action. Basically, it self-corrects if you miss the release catch - sort of fool proof.

The Franklin Binary (2nd Gen) is slightly easier and more natural for the release sear to engage. If the Franklin Binary had a mechanism like the Fostech trigger lock which is a redundant feature to prevent possible hammer follow when trying to simulate full-auto fire, I would prefer Franklin's trigger. There is a little less distance needed for release fire.

Just to be clear, I don't know anything about the Franklin Binary Gen3. It looks completely different than the Gen2. The Gen 2 is an actual trigger pack, like the Fostech Echo, but a bit different in design. The Franklin Gen3 is a totally different design. I don't quite know why they even call it a Gen3 - it's that different.

The big difference between the two systems I have installed is the Echo has a redundant system to completely prevent hammer follow but the Binary feels a bit faster and crisper, especially on the release shot.

Skans · January 4, 2017, 02:59 PM

Deleted duplicate.

Willie Lowman · January 19, 2017, 06:48 PM

Shooting update?

Venom1956 · January 25, 2017, 01:15 PM

Ive changed my Vote from the Fostech to the Franklin.

After finding out you need to modify your BCG for it to work correctly pretty much killed my interest in it. anything that costs that much and requires me to grind and fit my bolts to it is a joke.

Skans · January 25, 2017, 05:36 PM

Quote:

After finding out you need to modify your BCG for it to work correctly pretty much killed my interest in it. anything that costs that much and requires me to grind and fit my bolts to it is a joke.

I think you are acting on bad information. Fostech provided me with the modified bolt carrier with my Echo. I have the 2nd Gen Franklin and the Fostech. I'm assuming that all of the Echos ship with the modified bolt carrier like mine. It's really not a big deal - you just have to remember to keep the bolt carrier with the trigger system if you ever decide to use it in another AR.

nomad636 · January 25, 2017, 09:56 PM

Slams, have you had a chance to take them to the range at the same time to compare them? It would make a great video!!

nomad636 · January 25, 2017, 10:00 PM

Skans my bad. Auto correct got the best of that post.

Skans · January 26, 2017, 09:23 AM

I still haven't had a chance to range test either yet. I've just been slammed on the weekends!

Screwball · January 26, 2017, 11:03 AM

I got a used Echo, and from looking at it, it definitely is a well made system. Cannot wait to get my lower from the FFL and put it in... won't get to shoot it, being I'll pick up an upper when my taxes come back. Doing an A3 style gun, and feel it will be awesome with that trigger.

peggysue · January 28, 2017, 08:47 AM

Aim Surplus final got the light weight BCG in!!! $109. Needed one for my Franklin Gen 2. WooHoo!

http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=XAIMBCGN3LW

peggysue · January 30, 2017, 05:29 PM

Current States that FosTecH will NOT be able to ship triggers to are as follows: North Dakota, Oregon, Washington, & New Jersey

Fos Tech had lied.

peggysue · April 19, 2017, 10:22 AM

Ordered a Franklin BFS Gen 3 off eBay. Price are only around $360 and available. Not sure which AR i have will put it in but leaning towards my CAI AR15 A1 I have. Then it will be closer to what I carried during the Vietnam Conflict. I did put a NiC bolt in it already. The giggle switch would be the best.

Dane17 · April 21, 2017, 08:37 PM

Skans-

So glad to hear you talk about your trigger install issues. Feel way less like an idiot. Mine exploded on me about 3 times before I got it in. Me and the kids chasing springs and small parts on the kitchen floor...

peggysue · April 22, 2017, 08:56 AM

Changes mind will put in my My dedicated 22lr AR 15 I assembled in 2009. TNY AR15 LOWER and BLACKTHORN UPPER ASSEMBLY. Yellow Calvary furniture. I have a drum and mags for the bugger. It Has been 100% reliable . I have decided to put my new $350 Franklin Binary Gen 3 trigger into it. I have 3 mags and a drum. Will have $1000 into the little drill gun.

Venom1956 · April 22, 2017, 09:19 AM

Quote:

I think you are acting on bad information. Fostech provided me with the modified bolt carrier with my Echo. I have the 2nd Gen Franklin and the Fostech. I'm assuming that all of the Echos ship with the modified bolt carrier like mine. It's really not a big deal - you just have to remember to keep the bolt carrier with the trigger system if you ever decide to use it in another AR.

I planned to use it in several ARs in multiple calibers. 308, 9mm and 22lr I would need to modify all these bolts to allow them to work with the echo. I wanted to drop it in to a lower and be GTG from the start. It would probably mainly be with 556 or 22lr uppers but I would like it to work with everything.

peggysue · April 24, 2017, 08:21 AM

Fostech Echo won't work on my 22LR Blackthorn upper. (It has its own different dedicated BCG.)
. 22LR ammo is making a great come back in my area.
I am waiting for when the Echo comes down to $360 I will get one.

UPDATE...4/27 Got the Franklin 3 in my 22LR AR. Safety lever was unmovable tight but got that loosened up and she works well.

skrapmetal · May 9, 2017, 05:23 PM

I have the Tac Con 3MR, and I'm not impressed. It's currently installed in a dedicated Colt pattern AR 9mm, and I have not been able to get it to fire any faster than the Velocity trigger that was properly installed before I put the Tac Con in. I contacted the manufacturer, and they said to practice rapid trigger pulls by using a retractable pen. Oddly, that didn't make any difference. Hmmm. Velocity (and Timney and any of that style cassette trigger) can, of course, be installed to go fast but I don't like the impreciseness of that method.

But hey, the good news is that Fostech shipped the Echo trigger I made a down payment on back in January, and it'll be at my place on Friday. I'll install it on a 5.56 DI upper for function testing over the weekend, and then I'll set about modding a couple Adams Arms carriers and a 9mm AR carrier to work with the Fostech trigger system. The Echo is destined to live in the 9mm AR once it's dialed in, mainly so I can better afford to shoot a lot of ammo.

Has anyone looked at/tried the Digitrigger v1.2? They're claiming safe/semi/binary operation and a 1lb pull with the electric assist. $700 though.

EDIT Echo trigger received installed in DI 5.56 pistol lower (only have two DI uppers and they're both short). Thanks to Iraqveteran8888 for the excellent Youtube video on the install and setup. Ran 30rd through it and it worked just fine. Only issue was that the ambi safety selector got into my grip hand when switching from Echo mode to Semi mode with the trigger pulled (to prevent shot on trigger release). I called Fostech and they said they didn't offer a non-ambi safety, so I inverted the right side lever to temporarily alleviate the interference. Once it's permanently installed on the AR9, I'll just grind the lever off so it doesn't indicate backwards. Now to start modding my spare 9mm bolt...

skrapmetal · May 22, 2017, 09:35 PM

Modded a couple 9mm AR bolts to play nice with Fostech Echo trigger. Installed the rig in dedicated lower with side charging upper Form 1 SBR with Form 1 suppressor. Works like a clock.

Had a chance to race an M16 at the range today. I had 30rd 147gr 9mm LRN in a Colt mag in the above-described SBR vs 30rd 5.56x45 in an M16 full auto. In Echo mode, I dumped 30 rd 147gr 9mm 0.4 sec faster than the M16 dumped 30 rd 5.56x45mm. Considering that I'm binary-triggering the Fostech while the M16 is pull-and-hold, I think the Fostech is a total win.

This is my new backup Home D weapon.

View Poll Results: Which Trigger to Buy?
Fostech Echo	22	66.67%
Franklin BFS	9	27.27%
Tac Con 3MR	2	6.06%
Voters: 33. You may not vote on this poll

December 16, 2016, 09:41 PM	#101
shortround60 Member Join Date: January 15, 2005 Location: Northern, VA (Formerly Northeast, SC) Posts: 98	You're right, there is no selector switch. It simply snaps on and facilitates rapid fire. __________________ "No Bullets, No Bang", the unofficial Ordnance Corp Motto.

January 3, 2017, 07:21 PM	#104
Skans Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2008 Posts: 11,132	Update I received my Fostech Echo trigger within several days of paying my 2nd payment. Here are my thoughts, impressions, etc. The trigger system is complex and has a fair number of parts. This can't be something easy to produce. It has what appears to be an Np3 type coating on most of the parts. Interestingly, the hammer uses three separate springs to operate it. The part, "trigger lock", that operates off of the bolt carrier pressing it forward is definitely not like a full-auto type sear. Can some genius figure out a way to modify this to fire full auto, perhaps, but it would be convoluted and difficult if not impossible. I was skeptical about this, but when I saw how it works, I get it. In fact, its sort of does the opposite of a full-auto sear - locks the trigger so that it can't slam fire. The one drawback of the Echo is you have to use Fostech's bolt carrier which doesn't have the slick coating of the bolt carrier I replaced. I'm sure Fostech's bolt carrier is fine, however. Modifying a bolt carrier is something I could probably do, but there's not enough motivation for me to do this. The first thing I did when I received the trigger was open the package and play with the trigger BEFORE READING THE DIRECTIONS. The directions tell you not to pull the trigger, which I discovered.....after I pulled the trigger. Of course, I played with the action, pulled the trigger and parts flew everywhere! I found all but one part. The one part I lost was the pin that goes through the hole on the hammer and holds the two sprung steel struts. So, I made a new one. I'm pretty pleased with the one I made, so I may or may not contact Fostech and try to buy a replacement part. I ended up turning and polishing a piece of steel made from a punch so that the sprung struts fit precisely in the polished grooves. I've cycled the installed action a number of times and it's smooth as glass and doesn't drift. Installing the trigger, trigger lock and selector switch is easy, especially if you just follow the directions....and don't pull the trigger no matter how tempted you may be. There's a lot of force behind that hammer and you won't be able to contain the parts the first time you pull that trigger and decide to play with it. Once installed, Semi, Safe and pull-release fire work perfectly. There's nothing to tune. If the trigger system proves to be durable as well, this is great system. It is a bit more sophisticated than the Franklin Binary (2nd Gen) with the addition of the trigger lock, which prevents hammer follow. However, I still like the Franklin Binary trigger which appears to be a pretty rugged design. I'm going to find some time to do an extended range session with both trigger systems. I have to say, these two systems take AR's to the next level. So far, I'm pretty impressed.

January 3, 2017, 07:54 PM	#105
nomad636 Senior Member Join Date: October 13, 2015 Location: Arlington Texas Posts: 126	Skans, good job making a new pin. That is like losing a detent spring in the middle of the desert. Have you had an opportunity to shoot it yet? I'm looking forward to a video comparing the two! __________________ Never go to war with a man who can end you from another zip code. Remember that just because you are out of sight... doesn't mean you are out of range. Unless of course.... you can end him from a further distance.

January 4, 2017, 01:10 PM	#107
Willie Lowman Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2009 Location: Uh-Hi-O Posts: 3,006	Skans, how would you rate the two triggers? On a scale of Colt factory M4 to Geissele, how smooth and crisp are the BFS and Echo? __________________ "9mm has a very long history of being a pointy little bullet moving quickly" --Sevens

December 16, 2016, 09:51 PM	#102
SDF880 Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 2009 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 390	My Fostech showed up yesterday. Too busy this week-end but as soon as I install and fire will post a report. Good things come to those who wait?

December 27, 2016, 10:56 AM	#103
Skans Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2008 Posts: 11,132	Update - Fostech notified me that mine is ready to ship; I paid for it and expect it this week. IIRC, I made my 1st payment in March.

January 4, 2017, 02:59 PM	#109
Skans Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2008 Posts: 11,132	Deleted duplicate.

January 19, 2017, 06:48 PM	#110
Willie Lowman Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2009 Location: Uh-Hi-O Posts: 3,006	Shooting update? __________________ "9mm has a very long history of being a pointy little bullet moving quickly" --Sevens

January 25, 2017, 01:15 PM	#111
Venom1956 Senior Member Join Date: October 4, 2008 Location: WI Posts: 3,656	Ive changed my Vote from the Fostech to the Franklin. After finding out you need to modify your BCG for it to work correctly pretty much killed my interest in it. anything that costs that much and requires me to grind and fit my bolts to it is a joke. __________________ E-Shock rounds are engineered to expend maximum energy into soft targets, turning the density mass into an expanding rotational cone of NyTrilium matrix particles, causing neurological collapse to the central nervous system.- Yeah I can do that. I guarantee you will know it if a bicyclist hits your house going 1000 mph. -Smaug

January 25, 2017, 09:56 PM	#113
nomad636 Senior Member Join Date: October 13, 2015 Location: Arlington Texas Posts: 126	Slams, have you had a chance to take them to the range at the same time to compare them? It would make a great video!! __________________ Never go to war with a man who can end you from another zip code. Remember that just because you are out of sight... doesn't mean you are out of range. Unless of course.... you can end him from a further distance.

January 25, 2017, 10:00 PM	#114
nomad636 Senior Member Join Date: October 13, 2015 Location: Arlington Texas Posts: 126	Skans my bad. Auto correct got the best of that post. __________________ Never go to war with a man who can end you from another zip code. Remember that just because you are out of sight... doesn't mean you are out of range. Unless of course.... you can end him from a further distance.

January 26, 2017, 09:23 AM	#115
Skans Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2008 Posts: 11,132	I still haven't had a chance to range test either yet. I've just been slammed on the weekends!

January 26, 2017, 11:03 AM	#116
Screwball Senior Member Join Date: May 16, 2012 Location: ME Posts: 771	I got a used Echo, and from looking at it, it definitely is a well made system. Cannot wait to get my lower from the FFL and put it in... won't get to shoot it, being I'll pick up an upper when my taxes come back. Doing an A3 style gun, and feel it will be awesome with that trigger.

January 28, 2017, 08:47 AM	#117
peggysue Junior member Join Date: May 20, 2014 Posts: 1,835	Aim Surplus final got the light weight BCG in!!! $109. Needed one for my Franklin Gen 2. WooHoo! http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=XAIMBCGN3LW Last edited by peggysue; January 28, 2017 at 02:29 PM.

January 30, 2017, 05:29 PM	#118
peggysue Junior member Join Date: May 20, 2014 Posts: 1,835	Current States that FosTecH will NOT be able to ship triggers to are as follows: North Dakota, Oregon, Washington, & New Jersey Fos Tech had lied. Last edited by peggysue; January 31, 2017 at 05:14 PM.

April 19, 2017, 10:22 AM	#119
peggysue Junior member Join Date: May 20, 2014 Posts: 1,835	Ordered a Franklin BFS Gen 3 off eBay. Price are only around $360 and available. Not sure which AR i have will put it in but leaning towards my CAI AR15 A1 I have. Then it will be closer to what I carried during the Vietnam Conflict. I did put a NiC bolt in it already. The giggle switch would be the best. Last edited by peggysue; April 19, 2017 at 10:41 AM.

April 21, 2017, 08:37 PM	#120
Dane17 Member Join Date: September 2, 2015 Posts: 30	Skans- So glad to hear you talk about your trigger install issues. Feel way less like an idiot. Mine exploded on me about 3 times before I got it in. Me and the kids chasing springs and small parts on the kitchen floor...

April 22, 2017, 08:56 AM	#121
peggysue Junior member Join Date: May 20, 2014 Posts: 1,835	Changes mind will put in my My dedicated 22lr AR 15 I assembled in 2009. TNY AR15 LOWER and BLACKTHORN UPPER ASSEMBLY. Yellow Calvary furniture. I have a drum and mags for the bugger. It Has been 100% reliable . I have decided to put my new $350 Franklin Binary Gen 3 trigger into it. I have 3 mags and a drum. Will have $1000 into the little drill gun.

April 24, 2017, 08:21 AM	#123
peggysue Junior member Join Date: May 20, 2014 Posts: 1,835	Fostech Echo won't work on my 22LR Blackthorn upper. (It has its own different dedicated BCG.) . 22LR ammo is making a great come back in my area. I am waiting for when the Echo comes down to $360 I will get one. UPDATE...4/27 Got the Franklin 3 in my 22LR AR. Safety lever was unmovable tight but got that loosened up and she works well. Last edited by peggysue; April 27, 2017 at 11:17 AM.

May 9, 2017, 05:23 PM	#124
skrapmetal Junior Member Join Date: May 9, 2017 Posts: 2	TacCon and soon: Fostech Echo I have the Tac Con 3MR, and I'm not impressed. It's currently installed in a dedicated Colt pattern AR 9mm, and I have not been able to get it to fire any faster than the Velocity trigger that was properly installed before I put the Tac Con in. I contacted the manufacturer, and they said to practice rapid trigger pulls by using a retractable pen. Oddly, that didn't make any difference. Hmmm. Velocity (and Timney and any of that style cassette trigger) can, of course, be installed to go fast but I don't like the impreciseness of that method. But hey, the good news is that Fostech shipped the Echo trigger I made a down payment on back in January, and it'll be at my place on Friday. I'll install it on a 5.56 DI upper for function testing over the weekend, and then I'll set about modding a couple Adams Arms carriers and a 9mm AR carrier to work with the Fostech trigger system. The Echo is destined to live in the 9mm AR once it's dialed in, mainly so I can better afford to shoot a lot of ammo. Has anyone looked at/tried the Digitrigger v1.2? They're claiming safe/semi/binary operation and a 1lb pull with the electric assist. $700 though. EDIT Echo trigger received installed in DI 5.56 pistol lower (only have two DI uppers and they're both short). Thanks to Iraqveteran8888 for the excellent Youtube video on the install and setup. Ran 30rd through it and it worked just fine. Only issue was that the ambi safety selector got into my grip hand when switching from Echo mode to Semi mode with the trigger pulled (to prevent shot on trigger release). I called Fostech and they said they didn't offer a non-ambi safety, so I inverted the right side lever to temporarily alleviate the interference. Once it's permanently installed on the AR9, I'll just grind the lever off so it doesn't indicate backwards. Now to start modding my spare 9mm bolt... __________________ BANG waits CLANG Last edited by skrapmetal; May 12, 2017 at 08:54 AM.

May 22, 2017, 09:35 PM	#125
skrapmetal Junior Member Join Date: May 9, 2017 Posts: 2	9mm testing complete Modded a couple 9mm AR bolts to play nice with Fostech Echo trigger. Installed the rig in dedicated lower with side charging upper Form 1 SBR with Form 1 suppressor. Works like a clock. Had a chance to race an M16 at the range today. I had 30rd 147gr 9mm LRN in a Colt mag in the above-described SBR vs 30rd 5.56x45 in an M16 full auto. In Echo mode, I dumped 30 rd 147gr 9mm 0.4 sec faster than the M16 dumped 30 rd 5.56x45mm. Considering that I'm binary-triggering the Fostech while the M16 is pull-and-hold, I think the Fostech is a total win. This is my new backup Home D weapon. __________________ BANG waits CLANG