I have a question about knife laws in London, England.

[aarondhgraham]

I just found out that an 18 year old girl of my acquaintance,,,
Is going to London for a year of university studies.

I want to give her a personal protection device,,,
Are pocket knives entirely illegal in London.

Would a "Tactical Pen" be legal for her to carry in London?

She is all of 4' 10.5 inches tall and lovely as anyone on this planet,,,
It pains greatly me to know she will be all alone there,,,
I want to arm her but not get her put in jail.

Or would a loud whistle on a necklace be the only option?

Any help and advice would be greatly appreciated.

Aarond

.

[T. O'Heir]

She won't be able to get on the aircraft with a knife in her pocket or luggage. A "Tactical Pen" is illegal. A BIC pen is not. Easier said than done to use a knife for SD too.
A net search for English knife laws turns up 4,720,000 results. This is one of 'em.
Basically anything but a folding blade 3 inches long (7.62 cm) or less is illegal. Carrying a knife requires you to have a "good reason". Said reason being 'good' to be determined by Her Majesty's Courts if and when she's charged.
https://www.gov.uk/buying-carrying-knives
A can of hair spray or deodorant does the same thing as mace when applied to the eyes.

[Sharkbite]

A Zebra brand pen has a metal shaft and sharp point. The Uni-ball pen has a solid plastic shaft and is plenty hard to stick it thru a large roast...

No need for a dedicated “tactical pen”. They just draw attention

I fly alot. A Uni-ball pen clipped to my shirt has NEVER been a problem

[zxcvbob]

I'm pretty sure self-defense is illegal in the UK (the ruling class is in cahoots with the professional criminal class) so *anything* that you carry for that purpose will be prohibited. And anything you use as an improvised weapon retroactively becomes illegal because you used it as a weapon.

I hope I'm exaggerating this, but I don't think I am.

All that said, a Parker or similar pen with a metal barrel ought to work without arousing suspicion until you actually use it (which is hopefully never) And I've seen hair brushes with hard plastic pointy handles.

How about a hatpin?

[stephen426]

I think it is foolish to assume a "4' 10.5 inches tall and lovely as anyone on this planet" girl can use a lousy contact weapon for self defense. Even people with some level of training will be at a disadvantage if there is a big size/strength disparity. In the "land of helpless victims", options are very limited. I would recommend a UK legal pepper spray.

https://www.bladespro.co.uk/blogs/news/pepper-spray-uk

Not sure how effective, but better than nothing. A two-AA-cell Mini Maglight makes a decent striking weapon and would be hard to classify as a weapon. However, training, speed, power, and mindset are required to make it effective. Good luck!

[Sharkbite]

I think it is foolish to assume a "4' 10.5 inches tall and lovely as anyone on this planet" girl can use a lousy contact weapon for self defense

I think its foolish to assume she could not mount a solid defense against being grabbed by simply holding the pen in an “ice pick” grip and getting busy.

[aarondhgraham]

I'm shaking my head in disbelief at some of the statements in it.

If you’re caught carrying a weapon then it’s implied that the intention to use the weapon was there, which can, of course, mean you were prepared to seriously injure or even kill another human being. Which no matter how you try to spin it, it’s simply not cool.

That last line is possibly the stupidest thing I've ever read.

It's "not cool" to defend yourself against an assailant.

I can't wrap my mind around that mindset.

Oh well,,,
I guess there is nothing I can buy for her,,,
Except for one of those very loud whistles on a neck chain.

Thanks Gentlemen.

Aarond

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[aarondhgraham]

I think it is foolish to assume a "4' 10.5 inches tall and lovely as anyone on this planet" girl can use a lousy contact weapon for self defense.

Two years ago a waitress at the same place was jumped going to her car after dark.

She carries a very small locking knife (maybe 1.75") on her key chain,,,
The knife was open and in her hand when she left the building.

The instant she was grabbed she started slicing and stabbing like a Tasmanian Devil,,,
The cops had no problem finding the guy after he ran off,,,
He was in an urgent care clinic bleeding out.

Aarond

.

[rickyrick]

I don’t know nothing about UK laws so I’m not going to try. But with the right set of keys on the right key chain can be a great defensive weapon.

My mom was attacked in the mid 80s and she successfully defended herself with a bunch of keys. Just a year or two later, my father got drunk and attacked her and she defended with those same keys.
A police officer taught her how to use keys as a defense. Carry of a handgun was out of the question during that period in Texas. Something to think about. Taught me that anything could be a weapon.

[stephen426]

The idea was not to be disrespectful of the girl, but to imply that a ranged weapon would probably be more effective. When you are dealing with a lousy contact weapon, disparity of force really comes into play. Does this girl have any sort of training? Is she very athletic? If not, a pen is a horrible self defense tool. That is the only point I was trying to make and apologies if it came across as condescending.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

We have folks talking way outside of their expertise. Self defense is not illegal in the UK as a blanket statement statement. If you don’t actually know the law, spare us.
Second, unless you trained with knives for self-defense or combative, spare us on whether a woman or whomever can effectively defend themselves

[FITASC]

Knife laws in the UK are very strict and getting stricter - to the point that kitchen knives are being considered for regulation and registration. Once the guns were outlawed, the outlaws took to knives and boxcutters and the attacks resumed. Use of a weapon for personal defense can be punishable by jail time.

[44 AMP]

The laws in England are the laws in England, and generally prohibit anything that is a "weapon". The best self defense tool you could legally have over there is something that doesn't appear to be a weapon.

And, unless this can be somehow firearms related, its not in the right forum.

[FITASC]

https://www.gov.uk/buying-carrying-knives

The maximum penalty for an adult carrying a knife is 4 years in prison and an unlimited fine. You’ll get a prison sentence if you’re convicted of carrying a knife more than once.
Basic laws on knives

It’s illegal to:

sell a knife to anyone under 18, unless it has a folding blade 3 inches long (7.62 cm) or less
carry a knife in public without good reason, unless it has a folding blade with a cutting edge 3 inches long or less
carry, buy or sell any type of banned knife
use any knife in a threatening way (even a legal knife)

Scotland

In Scotland, 16 to 18 year olds are allowed to buy cutlery and kitchen knives.
Lock knives

Lock knives are not classed as folding knives and are illegal to carry in public without good reason. Lock knives:

have blades that can be locked and refolded only by pressing a button
can include multi-tool knives - tools that also contain other devices such as a screwdriver or can opener

Banned knives and weapons

It is illegal to bring into the UK, sell, hire, lend or give anyone the following:

butterfly knives (also known as ‘balisongs’) - a blade hidden inside a handle that splits in the middle
disguised knives - a blade or sharp point hidden inside what looks like everyday objects such as a buckle, phone, brush or lipstick
flick knives (also known as ‘switchblades’ or ‘automatic knives’) - a blade hidden inside a handle which shoots out when a button is pressed
gravity knives
stealth knives - a knife or spike not made from metal (except when used at home, for food or a toy)
zombie knives - a knife with a cutting edge, a serrated edge and images or words suggesting it is used for violence
swords, including samurai swords - a curved blade over 50cm (with some exceptions, such as antiques and swords made to traditional methods before 1954)
sword-sticks - a hollow walking stick or cane containing a blade
push daggers
blowpipes (‘blow gun’)
telescopic truncheons - extend automatically by pressing button or spring in the handle
batons - straight, side-handled or friction-lock truncheons
hollow kubotans - a cylinder-shaped keychain holding spikes
shurikens (also known as ‘shaken’, ‘death stars’ or ‘throwing stars’)
kusari-gama - a sickle attached to a rope, cord or wire
kyoketsu-shoge - a hook-knife attached to a rope, cord or wire
kusari (or ‘manrikigusari’) - a weight attached to a rope, cord, wire
hand or foot-claws
knuckledusters

Contact your local police to check if a knife or weapon is illegal.
Good reasons for carrying a knife or weapon

Examples of good reasons to carry a knife or weapon in public can include:

taking knives you use at work to and from work
taking it to a gallery or museum to be exhibited
if it’ll be used for theatre, film, television, historical reenactment or religious purposes, for example the kirpan some Sikhs carry
if it’ll be used in a demonstration or to teach someone how to use it

A court will decide if you’ve got a good reason to carry a knife or a weapon if you’re charged with carrying it illegally.

[spacemanspiff]

The best self defense tool you could legally have over there is something that doesn't appear to be a weapon.

How about a letter opener? There is no edge, but it does have a tip that could puncture flesh, and they usually are much longer than your pocket knife.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by aarondhgraham

That last line is possibly the stupidest thing I've ever read.

It's "not cool" to defend yourself against an assailant.

I can't wrap my mind around that mindset.

Most Americans have difficulty wrapping their minds around how far backwards the English mindset has devolved regarding self defense. You need to follow the news more. It's quite true that the British have become adamantly antithetical to the quaint notion that people should be allowed to defend themselves against violent (armed or unarmed) attack. They are supposed to die quietly and allow the Bobbies to arrive and take their photos and measurements while police spokespersons make idiotic statements about how the quick police response prevented further bloodshed.

Glenn, you can say that self defense isn't illegal in England, and that's technically correct, but it ignores the facts of numerous prosecutions of people who have been prosecuted in England for defending themselves in situations where, in the U.S., even you would be voting to award a 5-star attaboy to the defendant.

Originally Posted by aarondhgraham

Two years ago a waitress at the same place was jumped going to her car after dark.

She carries a very small locking knife (maybe 1.75") on her key chain,,,
The knife was open and in her hand when she left the building.

The instant she was grabbed she started slicing and stabbing like a Tasmanian Devil,,,
The cops had no problem finding the guy after he ran off,,,
He was in an urgent care clinic bleeding out.

That's nice, but the reality is that in England today (perhaps especially London) abduction is not the biggest worry. The bigger worry by far is Islamist terrorists, and the currently-popular modes of attack are either large bladed weapons or motor vehicles -- or both in combination. A folding 3-inch pocket knife or a tactical pen is going to be ineffective against either.

[luger fan]

Get her a Cross pen. All stainless steel, solid as a rock,you could hammer it through a 2x4, lifetime guarantee.Best LEGAL ANYWHERE tool you can find. Long story but the short version is I had a Cross pen run over by a Wrecker towing a car. I sent it to Cross with a note explaining how it was damaged. They sent me a new one.

[rickyrick]

I was conversing with a UK gentleman about 5yrs ago about guns and self defense and his general reply was along the lines of not needing to defend oneself because the bobbies are seconds away.
I informed him that there might be 6 officers and one fire crew on duty in my entire county at a time. He actually agreed that I might need some form of self defense.

[stephen426]

I love how everyone jumps on me about saying a contact weapon for a petite girl is not necessarily the best self-defense tool, but totally ignore the fact that there is a legal pepper spray that she can carry. Heck, get her a nice Cross pen if you like, but ask her to get the legal pepper spray as well. Distance is usually your friend when it comes to contact weapons unless you are a highly trained martial artist. Even then, they expect to get hit or cut.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Glenn, you can say that self defense isn't illegal in England, and that's technically correct, but it ignores the facts of numerous prosecutions of people who have been prosecuted in England for defending themselves in situations where, in the U.S., even you would be voting to award a 5-star attaboy to the defendant.

That is true. I was commenting on the blanket statement and preferred reference to the law and real instances. Certainly in the USA we have numerous 'attaboys' being charged in both civilian and police interactions. We may not be as bad as the UK but I don't like blanket statements.

As far as some realistic H2H training for smaller people - it is certainly worth the time of the trainee if it is a quality experience and not some magic ninja BS. It is not the goal to engage in MMA slugfest for the win. It is escape. I've taken classes - unarmed and knife which teach that as realistic goal. A small person (in the USA) with a Spyderco can effect an escape with some knowledge.

[stephen426]

Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer

As far as some realistic H2H training for smaller people - it is certainly worth the time of the trainee if it is a quality experience and not some magic ninja BS. It is not the goal to engage in MMA slugfest for the win. It is escape. I've taken classes - unarmed and knife which teach that as realistic goal. A small person (in the USA) with a Spyderco can effect an escape with some knowledge.

Glenn, my point is why should someone risk getting that close to an unknown attacker with mediocre (at best) contact weapon? I personally feel it would be better to hit the attacker with pepper spray from a distance rather than risk being disarmed by a possible faster and stronger attacker.

My wife is 5'4" and 100 lbs. soaking wet. She took a women's self defense class 20 years ago, but hasn't trained since. She is not very active physically since kids, work, and life in general kind of get in the way of that. I encouraged her to take the concealed weapon permit course, but she never actually followed through to get the permit. I'm not going to push her since she doesn't have the mindset, situational awareness, or desire to get to a level of proficiency. (Flame suit on) Mommy brain and loaded weapons around kids can be a recipe for disaster. You can teach your kids all about gun safety, but in the end, they are still kids. I got her a good pepper spray that I have clipped to her purse. If she sprays someone and they were not intent on really causing her harm, it isn't the end of the world. If she panics and shoots someone, it is a much more serious situation. If she hesitates and the weapon is taken from her and used against her, that is probably the worst outcome. I'm not making blanket statement for all women, just specifically my wife.

The point is pepper spray is a NON-LETHAL, RANGED WEAPON that does not require one to be within reach of an unknown attacker. It can be carried easily AND legally (UK legal version available). Still think a pen is better?

[JERRYS.]

there is nothing great about Britain anymore. travel at your own risk.

[FITASC]

Sure there is; especially if you have ancestors from there

[Rangerrich99]

I'm not knowledgeable on UK knife laws, but someone already mentioned that there is such a thing as "UK legal" mace/pepper spray; I'd get her a couple cans of that and maybe a SpacePen (all-metal construction and a bit fatter than a regular pen, so should be easier to hang onto/manipulate in a defensive situation). A piece of 1/4 inch dia. black (any color) surgical/rubber tubing around the barrel of the pen would make it non-slip, and probably wouldn't raise any legal eyebrows. And some basic instruction on how to use such an improvised defense tool as well.

Good luck

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by FITASC

Sure there is; especially if you have ancestors from there

Most of my ancestors are from there, and I very nearly married an Englishwoman some years ago. I can't think of any reason why I might consider going to London today. I would like to visit Scotland, but not if it meant having to spend time in or around London to get there.