Help Identifying Possibly Live Shell

[InigoMontoya]

"Ordinarily, a de-milled item would be clearly marked, I suspect. that thing should have been drilled to show that it was empty."

Maybe. Maybe not.

At various times, different agencies have employed different methods. For example: For a number of years my employer simply used serialized stickers. We didn't always drill holes (dunno why). If you had an item with a sticker, you could look up the serial number on the sticker and the log book would tell you what it was, etc. But stickers can wear off in time leaving no trace that the item was inert. Thus, we no longer use stickers. The point being that the lack of a hole may or may not mean anything.

That yellow paint is still scary, mind you!

[alanjaow]

Do you think that the IB 70 could be an indicator of it being defused?

[briandg]

I believe that ib 70 refers to the explosive charge. IB=inert binder with HE, but it is possible that this is not exactly what the IB on that shell means. what it would mean according to my information is that the charge is composed of 70% he with the remainder being inert clay or plasticizer that would keep the charge intact.

Going back to the markings. You can pretty much count on the fact that the 1942 is production date, and that would be when we were in full wartime production. #50 will be a designator number of model number; what kind of round it was. some part of that number string will identify the arsenal where produced and date codes.

Janes military or other extensive munitions databases could answer all of that.

Like I said earlier, the thing should be 24 pounds fully armed with fuse. That is only a 4 pound discrepancy. I am not entirely certain that the empty carcass alone would weigh 20 pounds. the 24 pound rating was with a timer fuse; who knows how much weight is missing without the tapered, long bronze timer fuse assembly?

another consideration that may or may not mean anything is that things condition. it really looks as if it sat in a barn for decades, rusted in the ground for a while, and was cleaned up. WWII ammunition that has been properly stored would not have that sort of rust.

there is no rifling engraved in the drive bands, so it was not a salvaged battlefield dud. That doesn't preclude the thing being a battlefield pickup, or stolen from storage or a dump site. It may have been snuck home from overseas as a souvenir. There is no reason at all to assume that this shell came out of that casing, is there?

I don't have any answers. I just have the few facts I've been able to find, and none of them are remotely conclusive. But none of the information or any of my personal observations indicate that the thing is safe, and keeping in mind that these things killed tanks and blew planes out of the air, safe is a pretty relative term.

It could be that even if it is fully loaded it would never fire. They lay in the dirt in france and are plowed up by farmers and road workers all the time, and they normally don't go off until they are set of by sappers and destruction charges

[davery25]

wow. keep us posted on how the call to the bomb squad goes

[Uncle Buck]

It could be that even if it is fully loaded it would never fire. They lay in the dirt in france and are plowed up by farmers and road workers all the time, and they don't go off until they are set of by sappers and destruction charges

But they still go off. A few years back we had a guy in Kansas City that had an old artillery shell that exploded in his house.

Back in 1989, in Korea, some boys were playing catch with an artillery warhead and one boy missed it and it exploded. It had been dug up in a rice field.

Just because a munition has been fired and does not explode does not mean it will not later explode. Just because some guy knew how to remove it from a shell does not mean it is safe.

Alan, I hate to sound crude, but you seem to have made up your mind that you want to keep this thing. The consequences of your actions, if this thing ever goes off, will affect more than just you.

It is possible that an EOD team could inspect it and say "Yeah, it is safe." EOD does not blow up things because they like explosions and like to blow things up, they destroy the munitions because the munitions are not safe to have around.

If you or one of your family members get hurt with this thing, it comes back on you. You have been given very sound advice and seem to want to ignore it. Asking the guy who sold it is like asking a used car salesman "Is there anything wrong with it?"

Sorry if I sound harsh, but there are some things you can take chances with and others you just don't. My friend, you have something you should not take chances with.

[BGutzman]

I don’t mean to be harsh... but honestly why do people collect things like these BEFORE they know if it’s a live round? Just having it could be a violation of any number of laws.. (I’m not a lawyer, but let’s face it anything with possible explosives is likely highly regulated)

If this is a live round anything potentially could set it off, temperature, time, movement and more..

In the Army blue is generally an inert training round, anything else is generally not inert nor a training round, think lethal.....

I highly recommend that no one ever collect these or any other types of military ordinance without being an expert in what you are looking at and an expert in knowing what the law says about it.. It is also advisable to stay out of places where you find these types of ordinance as the ground is likely littered with live and dangerous ordinance.

Again, I dont mean to sound harsh but doing this type of thing can make you dead and potentially others..

[Double Naught Spy]

It could be that even if it is fully loaded it would never fire. They lay in the dirt in france and are plowed up by farmers and road workers all the time, and they don't go off until they are set of by sappers and destruction charges

And yet many go off when hit by farmers and construction workers, get exploded by scrappers, and by bomb disposal techs attempting to disarm them.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/24/wo...24germany.html

http://www.stripes.com/news/suspecte...ring-1-1.87164

http://www.thelocal.de/national/20090910-21847.html


People are still being killed by WWII bombs
WWII bomb kills three when explosives experts tried to disarm it.
http://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-Ne...2391275487239/

WWII bomb kills three when attempted to be dismantled by metal scrappers
http://www.radioaustralia.net.au/int...2-03-20/472416

WWII bomb kills seven
http://lincolntribune.com/?p=19123

WWII bomb kills 1, injures 2 when they tinkered with it
http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/26647/1...lodes-in-davao

WWII bomb explodes during deactivation
http://english.ruvr.ru/2010/04/29/7057547.html

WWII bomb explodes during deactivation, killing 4 EOD personnell and injuring 11
http://www.philstar.com/article.aspx...categoryid=200

Set off by construction worker
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2...xplosion_N.htm

[InigoMontoya]

Briandg brings up the ONLY comforting point about this item....

The lack of rifling in the drive bands means that it was never fired. That in turn means that even if it *IS* live, it will likely never go off baring extreme mistreatment (no throwing it on the campfire!). To have never been fired means to have never gone through the arming sequence. So we aren't dealing with an item where the stabber simply got stuck or something. We're dealing with an item that would still have the pyro chain out of line. That is MUCH MUCH MUCH safer than anything that has gone down a barrel.

[kraigwy]

The lack of rifling in the drive bands means that it was never fired. That in turn means that even if it *IS* live, it will likely never go off baring extreme mistreatment (no throwing it on the campfire!). To have never been fired means to have never gone through the arming sequence. So we aren't dealing with an item where the stabber simply got stuck or something. We're dealing with an item that would still have the pyro chain out of line. That is MUCH MUCH MUCH safer than anything that has gone down a barrel

And you are willing to bet the lives of your wife and children on that????????


Lets assume it doesn't go off. Lets look at another aspect. What if someone comes in your house, for any reason, sees the item and reports it. Cop shows up, and per policey calls the Bomb Squad. Everyone gets evacuated and if possible, it might be moved. Or if the Bomb Tech thinks it may be unsafe to move it, desides to get rid of it right there.

Any Bomb Squad I know of, that decission is based on the opinion of the sernior bomb tech on site and he will not risk injury to bomb techs or others to save property damage.

Looking at it, if I was to shoot it, (with a dearmor) I wouldn't use water, I'd use a metal slug. After breaking that item open, the slug will continue on and might or might not do more property damage.

Best case, its broken open, minor (or major) property damage, no explosive.

Next Case: Broken open, explosives found inside. minor (or major) property damage, THEN ATF gets involved...........Big Trouble

Worse case, While shooting it, it goes off, you loose a house and are responsible for any other damage.

Now ask yourself, is it worth it????????????

I'm not trying to be a smart ass. I'm basing this on many years of being a bomb tech, and as an EOD instructor. Part of our jobs were policing fingers and other assorted body parts from people who played with items that someone demmed safe.

[InigoMontoya]

Would I bet the lives of my wife and child on the safety of an unfired round?

Absolutely.

But then... By profession my wife is an explosives formulator. She's one of the people in lab coats who comes up with new/exciting explosives (and as such plays with some really scary stuff on a daily basis). Myself? I make my living by testing experimental weapons for the military. When the local EOD detachment has questions, I'm one of the guys who gets called to (hopefully) answer it. Note that my wife gets some of those questions too. The point being that in many ways, my wife and I have a lot more training/knowledge than any EOD tech (And I concede, in other ways, less).

So why would I be willing to bet my life? Because I do it every day. It comes with the job. If an item malfunctions, I'm the poor SOB who gets to go out and inspect it.

So when in your hypothetical situation the local EOD unit gets called to my house, the first thing they're gonna say is, "Hi, Dave/Kris!"

With all that said... Am I saying that the OP should hang on to the shell? Of course not. There are too many unknowns here. My point is that it doesn't need to be treated like eggs either; it's not an "O M F G" situation. It's more like a "Meh, I need to get rid of that" situation.

[Chris_B]

My last hijack for the thread:

Good picture Kraig; never seen that system before. Looks fairly heavy-duty. Door breacher, too, I see.

Good looking dog; shame I cant have one where I live. No matter how badly or how often I screwed up, my dog was always happy to see me when I came home

[Double Naught Spy]

The lack of rifling in the drive bands means that it was never fired. That in turn means that even if it *IS* live, it will likely never go off baring extreme mistreatment (no throwing it on the campfire!). To have never been fired means to have never gone through the arming sequence. So we aren't dealing with an item where the stabber simply got stuck or something. We're dealing with an item that would still have the pyro chain out of line. That is MUCH MUCH MUCH safer than anything that has gone down a barrel

So your assumption is that the round is safe because it hasn't been fired. You know this despite not knowing the history of this particular munition. You know this despite knowing that parts are missing from the nose which indicates that somebody has messed with it.

In reading through a lot of articles between last night and this morning, there are some typical common sequences that show up. First is that explosives do such as used in WWII and prior often become less stable with time. That does not mean that they are more explosive or less. Some will explode easier, though may not be of the full original power. Some become more sensitive to kinetic shock (dropping) and some less so. You can't begin to predict which it will be without knowing exactly what is inside and what conditions the shell has been exposed to over time.

Chemical fuses destabilize as well if not mechanical. Mechanical fuses can fail to function correctly. Munitions thought previously safe because of not exploding despite rough handling, exposure to fire, etc. can explode unexpectantly.

Robert Colla kept a 40mm round on his desk as a paperweight. He used it for years. He had found it while hunting. It blew off his hand when he used it to squash a bug. http://www.leatherneck.com/forums/ar...p/t-28241.html

This is a great UXO report (unexploded ordnances) where UXOs did eventually explode. It isn't a fun read, but is informative.
http://64.78.11.86/uxofiles/enclosur...dentReport.pdf

Unexpected detonation of ordnances thought to be safe never produce beneficial results. At best, nobody and no property are injured, but this result is the exception rather than the rule.

[44 AMP]

I bow to the experience of the EOD techs and explosives prefessionals here, but there are a few things I have personal experience with, and they are...

The ONLY inert ordnance is one that has had the explosive components removed. Fired or unfired, if the explosive is still present, the only thing you can count on is that it has not gone off YET.

I'm pretty certain that most of the twentieth century explosives won't deteriorate into inert substances over time.

Sure they will. Everything does, eventually. But it may take a couple centuries, or more (possibly much more) for modern explosives. And they have a nasty habit of turning into something unsable (and stay that way a LONG time) on their way to becoming inert.

There are lots of instances of old ordnance just "going off". During WWII there were cases of bombs and shells (unfused, and "unarmed") spontaneously detonating. Rare, but it did happen.

Back during the late 60s or early 70s there was a large field at Ft Hood (aka target range) where they shot LAW rockets. Over the years there were a number of "duds". It was decided to clean them up. So the field was set on fire, and a number of them exploded. The rest didn't, and so must be complete duds, right? A detail was sent out to collect them, and they were, stacking the dud rockets like cordwood. Until one got tossed on the pile and went off. Several were hurt, and I think, some killed. DUDs are NEVER truly dead until they are blown up!

Another one: 1977 Germany, Grafenwoehr, troop finds "dud" round, and brings it back to the barracks. Saturday night, some drinking involved. Dud falls off table,onto floor. Resultant "thud" alerts CQ. EOD called. Barracks evacuated. Sunday morning, Entire company called to formation (rather spoiling the weekend when we were normally off duty), marched to the post theater, and given rather intensive instruction about unexploded ordnance all morning. In the afternoon,we were taken to the range, where EOD detonated the"dud". WWII German 10.5cm WP (white phosporus) round. Nasty stuff.
For that one, I was there, the dud was in the room above and one over,from mine. I take these things seriously, still today.

The main rule is always "just because it hasn't gone off, doesn't mean it can't!".

About the yellow paint on the 90mm shell, it might not mean anything at all. Lots of times these "souvineers" got painted by their owners, and then later get sold to antique dealers, who are ALWAYS told "yeah, its deactivated". Don't take the dealers word for it, he doesn't know.
NOBODY knows, except God, and if he tells you, you won't like it.

Call EOD, let them do what they do. If it is live the antique dealer owes you your money back, at the least, I would think. And don't worry overmuch abouto the ATF. They see this kind of thing all the time, "duds" that turn out to be live. While it is against the law to posses an unregistered explosive device, they seldom prosecute those who do not intend to posess an explosive device. Call EOD, and call the BATFE, and ask them what to do, then do what they tell you. DO it NOW, and don't do anything else!

Good Luck.

[briandg]

When I pointed out that it may never fire, and that there are thousands of armaments laying around unexploded,

That was not meant to imply that it couldn't, or wouldn't. that was not my intent.

What that entire post said, was that anything with explosives in it is a hazard and that it could explode, especially a fired round that is buried in a battlefield. But, just like radioactive materials with a 50 year half life, there is no guarantee that an individual atom will break down at any time within even a thousand year span. It could happen in the next nanosecond, or for all practical purposes, never.


When an armed device sits around in a garage, is banged around in shipping, lays in a field, some people consider this to be evidence that it is inert. It hasn't exploded after all that, so it must be inert/safe.

The way to observe that is to note that it hasn't exploded yet.


It may never explode, but that is not the proper way to consider the problem.

[briandg]

as an aside, my father in law had what has been called an "artillery round;" it is stored in the crawlspace of his home. I don't think it is a genuine artillery round, they always described it as being less than 3 feet long, but a complete shell. Probably from a recoilless gun.


Nobody in the family knows anything about it, and over and over, I've suggested that something needs to be done, but I have been refused access to it. Can't even look at it.

It would not be hard, probably, to know if the thing is genuinely safe, or if there is a risk. Training dummies are usually obvious.

But, the way I have always approached this thought is that dad brought home a souvenir, and that there are possibly several pounds of smokeless propellant and/or HE in a live device. The older I get, the less eager I am to open that hatch and look into his little cabinet of curiosities.

I think it's time to bring it up again.

[SPEMack618]

Not to thread hi-jack, but what kind of long gun is that mounted to your dept.'s RMI?

[kraigwy]

Not to thread hi-jack, but what kind of long gun is that mounted to your dept.'s RMI?

If you're talking about the RMI in my picture, its a Rem 1100. I also made a special 3/4 inch water cannon which is mounted also, but I don't think it shows up in the pictures.

[SPEMack618]

And would the 1100 be used for controlled det?

[Gbro]

Alan;
I think it could well be that just from this forum thread the ATFE could be in the process of tracing your IP address and you would be in a much much better position to call them in place of them making a house call to you.
The very explicit instruction given would disqualify any claim of ignorance.
But please let us know how things turn out.

[alanjaow]

Update: http://i1163.photobucket.com/albums/...w/IMG_1165.jpg
Thank you all for the responses, but I had to check. Pretty lucky, huh?

[briandg]

Like I said in one of my first posts, the 4 pound difference between the specified weight of the shell and what you had could have been an indicator that it was disarmed, but there were no solid indicators that it was disarmed.

I don't think I would have done that. All you did was unscrew a fuse assembly, but that still could have caused a detonation of a live round.

So, what about the fuse assembly/plug? is it a fuse, and is it disarmed?

[USOrdnanceCollector]

Congratulations on the addition to your collection!

I just joined in order to offer a comment.

Your projectile will look much better in your collection than it would with a .50 caliber hole in it or in small pieces after being "detonated" by someone that might not really care how good it will look in your collection.

[Navy joe]

So, much like in poker someone does exactly the wrong thing but gets a great result so the idiotic behavior is reinforced. Yay. No idea of what the fuse is or what's inside, or even what I'm doing, but let's unscrew this thing! And it was empty, proving of course that you did the right thing.

[briandg]

Your projectile will look much better in your collection than it would with a .50 caliber hole in it or in small pieces after being "detonated" by someone that might not really care how good it will look in your collection.

I can't believe I just read that.

It almost sounds as if you are saying that looking good in a collection is all that matters, and that keeping a probably armed artillery shell without being certain is acceptable behavior, and that being able to put the thing on a shelf is worth the risk involved in taking a pipe wrench after the thing to disarm it.

[alanjaow]

I talked to the guy, he said it's definitely inert, and that it was just a placeholder fuze. As in they would have this fuze on it until they were about to shoot it, then they would unscrew it and replace with the timer fuze, setting the timer as they did so, which also prevented it from accidentally going off.