Not SBS or AOW but shotgun pistol

Leapster · September 18, 2009, 03:05 AM

I've wanted a small sxs shotgun like some of the SBS's I see. I picked up a copy of Guns of The Old West magazine for something to read and saw some interesting weapons inside.

First was the Cabela's Howdah

http://www.cabelas.com/p-0058399.shtml

The second was the LSI Bounty Hunter

http://www.legacysports.com/products...erm87shot.html

Ok so "sawed off" or SBS are regulated and require a tax stamp. I'm trying to understand how this is different form the two firearms above. What I think I understand is the the Howdah is a muzzle loader so NFA doesn't apply and the Bounty Hunter was designed as a pistol so it is exempt. So instead of all the regulation why doesn't anyone just design a small one handed shotgun as a pistol? I know I'm probably missing obvious elements of the equation that many on this forum will be knowledgeable about.

Tamara · September 18, 2009, 07:13 AM

Because a smoothbore pistol is, by definition, an AOW.

jmorris · September 18, 2009, 09:21 AM

The top one is black powder.

Tamara · September 18, 2009, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmorris

The top one is black powder.

Yes, but the OP was asking about a modern smokeless breechloader.

444 · September 18, 2009, 03:05 PM

If you want a shotgun like the one you picture (that fires smokeless powder shells), it is an AOW and requires a tax stamp. However, the tax stamp costs you $5.
FWIW: I have a Serbu Super Shorty, which is an AOW shotgun. http://serbu.com/top/superShorty.php I had a webpage saved somewhere from a guy that makes and sells side by side AOW shotguns but I can't find it right now. When I saw the Serbu AOW, I thought it was one of the coolest things I had ever seen. After actually getting it, I found that it is no fun at all to shoot and IMO has no practical purpose.

The questions you asked in your original question were already answered, so got slightly off-topic.

David Hineline · September 18, 2009, 03:38 PM

There are small one handed shotguns available, if they have a rifled barrel they are a pistol, if they have smooth bore they are NFA regulated as AOW, also pistols are limited to .5 inch bore without becomming a destructive device once again NFA.

So the .5" bore limits your rifles handgun to 410. There are single shot pistols and derringers in 410 with rifled barrels.

At the federal level black powder muzzle loaders are not regulated as firearms unless they have modern ignition systems so the inlines that use 209 primers are firearms. So you need percussion cap or flint lock or other antique ignition systems.

rkba_net · September 19, 2009, 10:46 PM

1 - the weapon on top is of course black powder and exempt from the NFA.

2 - the weapon below it is a handgun, as it was manufactured from a bare receiver.

jestertoo · October 1, 2009, 01:06 PM

That Puma "pistol" looks a whole lot more like a short barreled rifle with a cutoff stock. I would want an ATF branch letter in hand before I bought that.

Bill DeShivs · October 1, 2009, 01:20 PM

You actually think they would be selling them if they were illegal?

Crosshair · October 1, 2009, 05:46 PM

Quote:

You actually think they would be selling them if they were illegal?

Wouldn't be the first time. The ATF tech branch isn't exactly known for being consistent.

jestertoo · October 1, 2009, 10:47 PM

I would bet money they didn't submit it. That looks like a shoulder stock. I would love someone to prove me wrong.

Bill DeShivs · October 2, 2009, 01:09 AM

Just write to Legacysports, and they will provide you with a copy of the BATFE approval letter.

paull · October 2, 2009, 07:20 AM

Keep in mind that the AOW form1, to make it yourself, is a $200 stamp.
If'n ya buy from somebody else, on form4, it's a $5 stamp.
Have fun and include pics.
p

NavArch · June 13, 2010, 05:40 PM

The Puma is no more an SBR than is an AR-15 pistol that was built from the ground up as a pistol. Please do your homework before offering an opinion. Otherwise, it's just noise.

Drummer101 · June 13, 2010, 05:55 PM

like this?

http://www.impactguns.com/store/SER-SS12.html

kozak6 · June 14, 2010, 08:51 PM

Yeah, any cartridge firing pistol over over .50 cal is a destructive device, and incidentally also must be rifled.

The only commonly available shotgun shell under .50 cal is the .410, and there are indeed .410 pistols out there. There's a bunch of derringers, and Taurus's Judge series.

Quote:

At the federal level black powder muzzle loaders are not regulated as firearms unless they have modern ignition systems so the inlines that use 209 primers are firearms. So you need percussion cap or flint lock or other antique ignition systems.

I don't believe this is the case. Do you have a link?

I know some states have black powder seasons that require an antique ignition system, but I don't believe there is any differentiation between antique or 209 ignited muzzleloaders at the federal level.

rkba_net · June 15, 2010, 11:11 PM

"Yeah, any cartridge firing pistol over over .50 cal is a destructive device, and incidentally also must be rifled."

This is of course not correct, ATF has exempted because of sporting purposes several cartridges larger than 0.5"...

577-Nitro Express 600-Nitro Express 700-Nitro Express
600 JDJ
.577 Tyrannosaur

and my personel favorite...

.950 JDJ!

THORN74 · June 15, 2010, 11:39 PM

Im really likin that Puma. 45LC for me pleeze!!!!

Venom1956 · June 18, 2010, 11:23 PM

I like the Puma aswell. I would be nice to get it with the rear even more sawed off... like a shotgun.Even less of the stock. although I suppose it wouldn't be to hard to make it yourself...

September 18, 2009, 03:05 AM	#1
Leapster Junior Member Join Date: September 18, 2009 Posts: 1	Not SBS or AOW but shotgun pistol I've wanted a small sxs shotgun like some of the SBS's I see. I picked up a copy of Guns of The Old West magazine for something to read and saw some interesting weapons inside. First was the Cabela's Howdah http://www.cabelas.com/p-0058399.shtml The second was the LSI Bounty Hunter http://www.legacysports.com/products...erm87shot.html Ok so "sawed off" or SBS are regulated and require a tax stamp. I'm trying to understand how this is different form the two firearms above. What I think I understand is the the Howdah is a muzzle loader so NFA doesn't apply and the Bounty Hunter was designed as a pistol so it is exempt. So instead of all the regulation why doesn't anyone just design a small one handed shotgun as a pistol? I know I'm probably missing obvious elements of the equation that many on this forum will be knowledgeable about.

September 18, 2009, 07:13 AM	#2
Tamara Moderator Emeritus Join Date: March 11, 2000 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 16,002	Because a smoothbore pistol is, by definition, an AOW. __________________ MOLON LABE! 2% Unobtainium, 98% Hypetanium. The Arms Room: An Online Museum.

September 18, 2009, 03:05 PM	#5
444 Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2000 Location: Ohio Posts: 3,968	If you want a shotgun like the one you picture (that fires smokeless powder shells), it is an AOW and requires a tax stamp. However, the tax stamp costs you $5. FWIW: I have a Serbu Super Shorty, which is an AOW shotgun. http://serbu.com/top/superShorty.php I had a webpage saved somewhere from a guy that makes and sells side by side AOW shotguns but I can't find it right now. When I saw the Serbu AOW, I thought it was one of the coolest things I had ever seen. After actually getting it, I found that it is no fun at all to shoot and IMO has no practical purpose. The questions you asked in your original question were already answered, so got slightly off-topic. __________________ You know the rest. In the books you have read How the British Regulars fired and fled, How the farmers gave them ball for ball, From behind each fence and farmyard wall, Chasing the redcoats down the lane, Then crossing the fields to emerge again Under the trees at the turn of the road, And only pausing to fire and load.

September 18, 2009, 03:38 PM	#6
David Hineline Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 1999 Location: South Sioux City, Nebraska Posts: 704	Plenty There are small one handed shotguns available, if they have a rifled barrel they are a pistol, if they have smooth bore they are NFA regulated as AOW, also pistols are limited to .5 inch bore without becomming a destructive device once again NFA. So the .5" bore limits your rifles handgun to 410. There are single shot pistols and derringers in 410 with rifled barrels. At the federal level black powder muzzle loaders are not regulated as firearms unless they have modern ignition systems so the inlines that use 209 primers are firearms. So you need percussion cap or flint lock or other antique ignition systems.

October 1, 2009, 01:20 PM	#9
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,985	You actually think they would be selling them if they were illegal? __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com

September 18, 2009, 09:21 AM	#3
jmorris Senior Member Join Date: November 22, 2006 Posts: 3,077	The top one is black powder.

September 19, 2009, 10:46 PM	#7
rkba_net Senior Member Join Date: October 26, 2000 Posts: 153	1 - the weapon on top is of course black powder and exempt from the NFA. 2 - the weapon below it is a handgun, as it was manufactured from a bare receiver.

October 1, 2009, 01:06 PM	#8
jestertoo Member Join Date: January 30, 2009 Posts: 19	That Puma "pistol" looks a whole lot more like a short barreled rifle with a cutoff stock. I would want an ATF branch letter in hand before I bought that.

October 1, 2009, 10:47 PM	#11
jestertoo Member Join Date: January 30, 2009 Posts: 19	I would bet money they didn't submit it. That looks like a shoulder stock. I would love someone to prove me wrong.

October 2, 2009, 01:09 AM	#12
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,985	Just write to Legacysports, and they will provide you with a copy of the BATFE approval letter. __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com

October 2, 2009, 07:20 AM	#13
paull Junior member Join Date: November 9, 1999 Location: SE Texas, 'tween Houston & Galveston Posts: 157	Keep in mind that the AOW form1, to make it yourself, is a $200 stamp. If'n ya buy from somebody else, on form4, it's a $5 stamp. Have fun and include pics. p

June 13, 2010, 05:40 PM	#14
NavArch Junior Member Join Date: May 1, 2010 Posts: 2	Puma Bounty Hunter v. AR-15 Pistol The Puma is no more an SBR than is an AR-15 pistol that was built from the ground up as a pistol. Please do your homework before offering an opinion. Otherwise, it's just noise.

June 13, 2010, 05:55 PM	#15
Drummer101 Senior Member Join Date: October 22, 2009 Location: DFW Posts: 943	like this? http://www.impactguns.com/store/SER-SS12.html

June 15, 2010, 11:11 PM	#17
rkba_net Senior Member Join Date: October 26, 2000 Posts: 153	"Yeah, any cartridge firing pistol over over .50 cal is a destructive device, and incidentally also must be rifled." This is of course not correct, ATF has exempted because of sporting purposes several cartridges larger than 0.5"... 577-Nitro Express 600-Nitro Express 700-Nitro Express 600 JDJ .577 Tyrannosaur and my personel favorite... .950 JDJ!

June 15, 2010, 11:39 PM	#18
THORN74 Senior Member Join Date: May 30, 2010 Location: Chicago 'Burbs Posts: 543	Im really likin that Puma. 45LC for me pleeze!!!! __________________ Sig P226 .40s&w/9mm -- Kimber Pro CDP .45ACP -- Radom P64 9X18mm Makarov -- Dan Wesson RZ-45 Heritage .45ACP -- Ruger SR22 .22LR -- M&P9c 9mm Springfield Armory Inc. M1A Scout 7.62X51mm NATO -- Kar 98AZ (1917 Erfurt) 8mm Mauser -- Marlin Model 60 Glenfield .22LR -- Marlin 795 .22LR -- Marlin 915y .22LR -- AR15 5.56x45mm NATO -- Springfield Armory M1 Garand 30-06

June 18, 2010, 11:23 PM	#19
Venom1956 Senior Member Join Date: October 4, 2008 Location: WI Posts: 3,656	I like the Puma aswell. I would be nice to get it with the rear even more sawed off... like a shotgun.Even less of the stock. although I suppose it wouldn't be to hard to make it yourself... __________________ E-Shock rounds are engineered to expend maximum energy into soft targets, turning the density mass into an expanding rotational cone of NyTrilium matrix particles, causing neurological collapse to the central nervous system.- Yeah I can do that. I guarantee you will know it if a bicyclist hits your house going 1000 mph. -Smaug