Barricade shooting - Police Pistol Combat

aviva194 · January 3, 2009, 06:46 PM

Greetings! Today for the first time I shot a Police Pistol Combat match, and got myself chastised by the R.O. for what he told me was improper technique.

I was trained by the Army, and was taught some standard do's and don't re: barricade shooting:

DON'T extend the barrel of your weapon past the barricade
DON'T lean on the barricade for support
DO keep both feet behind the barricade
DONT expose more that a minimal portion of your torso to the target

The R.O. told me today that when shooting both left and right hand barricade, by hand MUST touch the barricade. This just doesn't seem right to me - if I'm touching the barricade with my hand, the barrel of my weapon is too far in front of the barricade for comfort. It messes with the recoil. It messes with my support hand (on both sides).

Since I was the new kid at the range and it was my first time, I kept my mouth shut, but in my brain, I wondered. I know every group has different ways of doing things, and certainly I want to be compliant.

My understanding is that in most of the shooting sport formats, there a specific positional guidelines, and certain rules which, when violated, result in a DQ, but generally, as long as you are shooting safely, effectively, and in compliance with the rules, a little bit of flexibility in individual shooter body position is allowed.

Can anyone provide me some insight?

markshere2 · January 3, 2009, 08:10 PM

Seems to me you've been trained a specific way for very good reasons.

Methinks US Army doctrine to minimize exposure is a very sensible set of rules, at least for opposing an armed GROUP.

Maybe you can explain it to him so he understands you have reasons for doing it differently and see what he says.

If he tells you you are wrong, then you have successfully identified an *******.

This opinion is worth what you paid for it.......

Mark

mskdgunman · January 3, 2009, 08:20 PM

I know from experience that some firearms instructors are that in name only. They learn a specific set of techniques and refuse to concede a point when presented with a superior (or even slightly different) viewpoint. I don't know the specific instructor, but I'm sure his brother works for my agency (if you know what I mean). He was probably taught that way and so, that is the ONLY way to do it.

Tactics are fluid and no one technique for given tactical problem is right for every situation. I have been taught the same type of barricade shooting as your instructor insists upon but, I have also been exposed to different ways of using barricades and cover. So, when qualifying on the line, I do what they want but am smart enough to know (and practice) other techniques which may come in handy such as keeping some distance between you and the cover, not extending the weapon past the cover/barricade and so on.

Try and find another instructor (hopefully one with an open mind) to talk with and express your reasons for questioning the established order of things...but beware, the established order does not like being questioned. One LEO's opinion

Casimer · January 3, 2009, 09:00 PM

Quote:

MUST touch the barricade

That might be a PPC rule. Did he mention whether it was a rules violation? - or did he state that it was a safety violation?

You'll sometimes encounter range officials who have their own interpretation of rules as well - especially if they're not well defined.

Competition format rules often don't keep up with the training methods that they're derived from.

David Armstrong · January 5, 2009, 12:12 PM

Officially PPC only requires that both feet and knees be behind the barricade line and that the gun itself not touch the barricade. The competitor may or may not use the barricade for support, whichever he chooses.

Dirty Bill · January 5, 2009, 12:30 PM

Sounds like he is following rules made by a competitive "combat shooting" organization..

BikerRN · January 5, 2009, 03:29 PM

Techniques that win matches are not techniques that keep you alive on the street.

That's a generalization, but somewhat true. Decide for yourself if you want to train to survive or train to win a match. Some match techniques have led to advancements in street techniques.

I personally don't see anything wrong with the technique you described, and use it myself. Too many people "hug the cover" IMHO.

Biker

bcarver · January 5, 2009, 03:44 PM

I worked 7 ppc matches over 7 years and only rule I remember was feet inside the barricade line. Most shooters used the barricade for support on right barricade and some on left. I can't shoot as well using the barricade when on left.

ISP2605 · January 5, 2009, 05:34 PM

I shot a match at a range once where they required the hands to touch the barricade. It was a safety reason. Tactical training now for barricade is to stand back away from the barricade as it makes slicing the pie easier, less exposure. The range had implemented the "hands on rule" because at least one person put a rd thru the barricade which blew wood splinters on him, then he complained about it. He showed proper technique but improper execution. It only takes one guy screwing up to cause a range to implement such rules.

aviva194 · January 8, 2009, 03:07 PM

Thanks guys - your responses were very helpful and validated that 1) I'm not nuts, and 2) there may simply be some safety rules in place (the story of someone actually shooting THROUGH the barricade for example).

Slopemeno · January 8, 2009, 03:28 PM

When you start match shooting, it helps to have a really good idea of what all the rules are up front. Having a more experienced shooter squad up with you for your first couple of matches never hurts either.

A USPSA league might be more your speed from the sound of things, as it's more about "solving the problem" than the more rigid disciplines...though to be frank I actually enjoyed PPC.

January 3, 2009, 06:46 PM	#1
aviva194 Junior Member Join Date: January 3, 2009 Posts: 2	Barricade shooting - Police Pistol Combat Greetings! Today for the first time I shot a Police Pistol Combat match, and got myself chastised by the R.O. for what he told me was improper technique. I was trained by the Army, and was taught some standard do's and don't re: barricade shooting: DON'T extend the barrel of your weapon past the barricade DON'T lean on the barricade for support DO keep both feet behind the barricade DONT expose more that a minimal portion of your torso to the target The R.O. told me today that when shooting both left and right hand barricade, by hand MUST touch the barricade. This just doesn't seem right to me - if I'm touching the barricade with my hand, the barrel of my weapon is too far in front of the barricade for comfort. It messes with the recoil. It messes with my support hand (on both sides). Since I was the new kid at the range and it was my first time, I kept my mouth shut, but in my brain, I wondered. I know every group has different ways of doing things, and certainly I want to be compliant. My understanding is that in most of the shooting sport formats, there a specific positional guidelines, and certain rules which, when violated, result in a DQ, but generally, as long as you are shooting safely, effectively, and in compliance with the rules, a little bit of flexibility in individual shooter body position is allowed. Can anyone provide me some insight?

January 5, 2009, 03:44 PM	#8
bcarver Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2007 Location: Jackson,Mississippi Posts: 838	ppc rules I worked 7 ppc matches over 7 years and only rule I remember was feet inside the barricade line. Most shooters used the barricade for support on right barricade and some on left. I can't shoot as well using the barricade when on left.

January 8, 2009, 03:07 PM	#10
aviva194 Junior Member Join Date: January 3, 2009 Posts: 2	Thanks to all! Thanks guys - your responses were very helpful and validated that 1) I'm not nuts, and 2) there may simply be some safety rules in place (the story of someone actually shooting THROUGH the barricade for example).

January 3, 2009, 08:10 PM	#2
markshere2 Member Join Date: December 26, 2008 Posts: 28	Seems to me you've been trained a specific way for very good reasons. Methinks US Army doctrine to minimize exposure is a very sensible set of rules, at least for opposing an armed GROUP. Maybe you can explain it to him so he understands you have reasons for doing it differently and see what he says. If he tells you you are wrong, then you have successfully identified an *******. This opinion is worth what you paid for it....... Mark

January 3, 2009, 08:20 PM	#3
mskdgunman Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 2008 Posts: 127	I know from experience that some firearms instructors are that in name only. They learn a specific set of techniques and refuse to concede a point when presented with a superior (or even slightly different) viewpoint. I don't know the specific instructor, but I'm sure his brother works for my agency (if you know what I mean). He was probably taught that way and so, that is the ONLY way to do it. Tactics are fluid and no one technique for given tactical problem is right for every situation. I have been taught the same type of barricade shooting as your instructor insists upon but, I have also been exposed to different ways of using barricades and cover. So, when qualifying on the line, I do what they want but am smart enough to know (and practice) other techniques which may come in handy such as keeping some distance between you and the cover, not extending the weapon past the cover/barricade and so on. Try and find another instructor (hopefully one with an open mind) to talk with and express your reasons for questioning the established order of things...but beware, the established order does not like being questioned. One LEO's opinion

January 5, 2009, 12:12 PM	#5
David Armstrong Junior member Join Date: January 24, 2005 Location: SW Louisiana Posts: 2,289	Officially PPC only requires that both feet and knees be behind the barricade line and that the gun itself not touch the barricade. The competitor may or may not use the barricade for support, whichever he chooses.

January 5, 2009, 12:30 PM	#6
Dirty Bill Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2008 Location: West by God Virginia Posts: 109	Sounds like he is following rules made by a competitive "combat shooting" organization..

January 5, 2009, 03:29 PM	#7
BikerRN Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2007 Location: "State of Discombobulation" Posts: 1,333	Techniques that win matches are not techniques that keep you alive on the street. That's a generalization, but somewhat true. Decide for yourself if you want to train to survive or train to win a match. Some match techniques have led to advancements in street techniques. I personally don't see anything wrong with the technique you described, and use it myself. Too many people "hug the cover" IMHO. Biker

January 5, 2009, 05:34 PM	#9
ISP2605 Junior member Join Date: November 25, 2002 Posts: 954	I shot a match at a range once where they required the hands to touch the barricade. It was a safety reason. Tactical training now for barricade is to stand back away from the barricade as it makes slicing the pie easier, less exposure. The range had implemented the "hands on rule" because at least one person put a rd thru the barricade which blew wood splinters on him, then he complained about it. He showed proper technique but improper execution. It only takes one guy screwing up to cause a range to implement such rules.

January 8, 2009, 03:28 PM	#11
Slopemeno Senior Member Join Date: January 19, 2007 Posts: 2,663	When you start match shooting, it helps to have a really good idea of what all the rules are up front. Having a more experienced shooter squad up with you for your first couple of matches never hurts either. A USPSA league might be more your speed from the sound of things, as it's more about "solving the problem" than the more rigid disciplines...though to be frank I actually enjoyed PPC.