Caspian Alloy Frame

45 Fan · August 27, 1999, 06:02 PM

Hi to all:
I recently purchased a Commander length Caspian alloy frame with an eye toward making a second carry gun. After considering the potential increase in liability in carrying a custom built defense gun I have since decieded against the project. My question now is what to do with the unused frame? Is this frame strong enough to use as a basis for a IDPA gun? Will this cast alloy frame take the recoil of major power factor loads without failing? The frame was ordered with a Nowlin cut ramp for a supported barrel. Any advice or thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks in advance for any help given......45 Fan

George Stringer · August 27, 1999, 11:20 PM

With the ramped barrel and the proper recoil spring it should work very well. George

Jeff OTMG · August 28, 1999, 02:13 AM

45 fan, don't worry about the liability. Sounds like you have been listening to someone that has read too much Ayoob. The key to defending the pistol in court is to be able to justify any decisions that you made for the features the gun has. A Gold Cup width trigger, recoil reducer, beavertail grip safety, night sights, beveled mag well, checkering, BarSto ramped barrel, extended safety, cocking grooves on the front of the slide, the weight of the recoil spring, trigger pull weight, all have valid reasons for them being on your pistol. I am going to do much of the same thing that you are contemplating next year using the Caspian damascus Commander length slide. Ask me which part of the modifications that you are concerned about and I will happily give you the defense. Even Glaser Safety Slugs and MagSafe ammo are easy to defend.

45 Fan · August 28, 1999, 04:25 AM

Thanks for the input George and Jeff. Jeff, in regard to your post, most of the local gunsmiths in my area informed me via a blanket statement that building a custom carry piece would potentially cause problems down the road even if I was involved in a justifiable shoot. They advocated carrying a completely stock pistol and went so far as to say that I should never take it apart, or have any work done on it unless performed by the factory. They also expressed concern for their own potential liability for undertaking the project! They indicated that I would be viewed by any jury as having created a "custom weapon of death" specialized for the sole purpose of killing. This did not sound logical then and still does not. This was to be a very conservative carry piece following all accepted standard for safe trigger pull,etc. Based on the above I scrapped the custom carry project and purchased a Kimber Pro Carry. I figured that I would use the frame as the basis for a IDPA piece instead....45 Fan

abruzzi · December 20, 1999, 11:28 PM

FWIW, I have defended individuals charged with voluntary manslaughter as a result of a shooting of a midnight intruder. Factors other than the selection of weapon were WAY more important than anything to do with the gun.

For instance, the prior relationship between shooter and shot. The location of the body outside the home. The angle of entry of the bullet vs. the defense that the intruder was headed back into the house. Number of shots taken. Other persons observations of the intruder earlier that night. The coroner's assessment of the amount of alcohol in his body.

In plain English, build the gun you want. Use an ammo that you have a defense for -- and yes there's a defense to assert for almost anything. Job #1 is to stop the BG. Job #2 is to defend your action. But you never get to Job 2 if you fail Job 1.

The fact that you customize a gun is not prima facia evidence of anything other than care. Turn that concern to a positive. Emphasize the reading you did to select the appropriate caliber, bullet, etc. The other defensive steps you've taken for your house, the route you drove home to avoid trouble, the courses you've taken in defensive gun handling.

Don't be intimidated by legal stuff that is just as easily converted to an asset for your defense.

JerryM · December 23, 1999, 01:02 PM

We have really gone overboard on this worry about liability. It is my opinion that each of us has a responsiblity to be as good as we can be. This makes it less likely that innocent bystanders will be hit. In addition, it is better to get a shooting over as soon as possible with the least number of hits. That is good for the survival of the perp also since he has a greater chance to survive with fewer hits. Better for me too!! I believe a custom gun that adds to the ability of the shooter to make accurate shots is entirely defensible. Don't let a bunch of "guardhouse lawyers" sitting around a gun shop talk you out of your custom gun. The bottom line will be "Was the shooting justified?" Best, Jerry

JerryM · December 23, 1999, 01:03 PM

We have really gone overboard on this worry about liability. It is my opinion that each of us has a responsiblity to be as good as we can be. This makes it less likely that innocent bystanders will be hit. In addition, it is better to get a shooting over as soon as possible with the least number of hits. That is good for the survival of the perp also since he has a greater chance to survive with fewer hits. Better for me too!! I believe a custom gun that adds to the ability of the shooter to make accurate shots is entirely defensible. Don't let a bunch of "guardhouse lawyers" sitting around a gun shop talk you out of your custom gun. The bottom line will be "Was the shooting justified?" Best, Jerry

August 27, 1999, 06:02 PM	#1
45 Fan Member Join Date: August 14, 1999 Posts: 27	Hi to all: I recently purchased a Commander length Caspian alloy frame with an eye toward making a second carry gun. After considering the potential increase in liability in carrying a custom built defense gun I have since decieded against the project. My question now is what to do with the unused frame? Is this frame strong enough to use as a basis for a IDPA gun? Will this cast alloy frame take the recoil of major power factor loads without failing? The frame was ordered with a Nowlin cut ramp for a supported barrel. Any advice or thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks in advance for any help given......45 Fan

August 27, 1999, 11:20 PM	#2
George Stringer Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 12, 1998 Location: Earlington KY Posts: 2,299	With the ramped barrel and the proper recoil spring it should work very well. George

August 28, 1999, 02:13 AM	#3
Jeff OTMG Senior Member Join Date: October 15, 1998 Location: OKC, OK & Austin, Tx Posts: 3,707	45 fan, don't worry about the liability. Sounds like you have been listening to someone that has read too much Ayoob. The key to defending the pistol in court is to be able to justify any decisions that you made for the features the gun has. A Gold Cup width trigger, recoil reducer, beavertail grip safety, night sights, beveled mag well, checkering, BarSto ramped barrel, extended safety, cocking grooves on the front of the slide, the weight of the recoil spring, trigger pull weight, all have valid reasons for them being on your pistol. I am going to do much of the same thing that you are contemplating next year using the Caspian damascus Commander length slide. Ask me which part of the modifications that you are concerned about and I will happily give you the defense. Even Glaser Safety Slugs and MagSafe ammo are easy to defend.

August 28, 1999, 04:25 AM	#4
45 Fan Member Join Date: August 14, 1999 Posts: 27	Thanks for the input George and Jeff. Jeff, in regard to your post, most of the local gunsmiths in my area informed me via a blanket statement that building a custom carry piece would potentially cause problems down the road even if I was involved in a justifiable shoot. They advocated carrying a completely stock pistol and went so far as to say that I should never take it apart, or have any work done on it unless performed by the factory. They also expressed concern for their own potential liability for undertaking the project! They indicated that I would be viewed by any jury as having created a "custom weapon of death" specialized for the sole purpose of killing. This did not sound logical then and still does not. This was to be a very conservative carry piece following all accepted standard for safe trigger pull,etc. Based on the above I scrapped the custom carry project and purchased a Kimber Pro Carry. I figured that I would use the frame as the basis for a IDPA piece instead....45 Fan

December 20, 1999, 11:28 PM	#5
abruzzi Senior Member Join Date: April 23, 1999 Location: Hurricane, WV, USA Posts: 192	FWIW, I have defended individuals charged with voluntary manslaughter as a result of a shooting of a midnight intruder. Factors other than the selection of weapon were WAY more important than anything to do with the gun. For instance, the prior relationship between shooter and shot. The location of the body outside the home. The angle of entry of the bullet vs. the defense that the intruder was headed back into the house. Number of shots taken. Other persons observations of the intruder earlier that night. The coroner's assessment of the amount of alcohol in his body. In plain English, build the gun you want. Use an ammo that you have a defense for -- and yes there's a defense to assert for almost anything. Job #1 is to stop the BG. Job #2 is to defend your action. But you never get to Job 2 if you fail Job 1. The fact that you customize a gun is not prima facia evidence of anything other than care. Turn that concern to a positive. Emphasize the reading you did to select the appropriate caliber, bullet, etc. The other defensive steps you've taken for your house, the route you drove home to avoid trouble, the courses you've taken in defensive gun handling. Don't be intimidated by legal stuff that is just as easily converted to an asset for your defense.

December 23, 1999, 01:02 PM	#6
JerryM Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 1999 Location: New Mexico Posts: 1,889	We have really gone overboard on this worry about liability. It is my opinion that each of us has a responsiblity to be as good as we can be. This makes it less likely that innocent bystanders will be hit. In addition, it is better to get a shooting over as soon as possible with the least number of hits. That is good for the survival of the perp also since he has a greater chance to survive with fewer hits. Better for me too!! I believe a custom gun that adds to the ability of the shooter to make accurate shots is entirely defensible. Don't let a bunch of "guardhouse lawyers" sitting around a gun shop talk you out of your custom gun. The bottom line will be "Was the shooting justified?" Best, Jerry

December 23, 1999, 01:03 PM	#7
JerryM Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 1999 Location: New Mexico Posts: 1,889	We have really gone overboard on this worry about liability. It is my opinion that each of us has a responsiblity to be as good as we can be. This makes it less likely that innocent bystanders will be hit. In addition, it is better to get a shooting over as soon as possible with the least number of hits. That is good for the survival of the perp also since he has a greater chance to survive with fewer hits. Better for me too!! I believe a custom gun that adds to the ability of the shooter to make accurate shots is entirely defensible. Don't let a bunch of "guardhouse lawyers" sitting around a gun shop talk you out of your custom gun. The bottom line will be "Was the shooting justified?" Best, Jerry