Amazed at the ignorance

[FireForged]

Well lets examine his statement a little. First, there isnt any reason why a person who is staring off with a 9mm cant start of with a 40cal, its not a dramatic difference. The difference certainly does not shock the conscience or anything and I dont think it would detract from the fundamentals to any degree worth crying about.

His second statement about a gun shot wound in the groin area.. groin would be the pelvis. I would consider that kind of injury to the pelvis to be devastating.

I dont really like how he phrased his opinion and its not what I would tell someone but I dont think I would call it ignorant.

[UncleLoodis]

It always drives me bonkers--someone hijacking the conversation. Yes, I hear it all the time. And as others have said, the less the hijacker knows, the more adamant his opinion is.

Personally, if they only wanted something for home defense, and had asked me, I may have suggested a shotgun. But I wouldn't have interrupted the conversation to say so! Very rude.

Deep breaths....in through the nose, out through the mouth.

[sliponby]

I have your website, www.corneredcat.com on the "Links" page of my website. Further, I suggest to all my female (and male) students to check out your website prior to taking my class. More than once I've heard "she had me at the home page". Thanks for being such a valuable resource

[dirtd0g]

No amount of ignorance surprises me any more. I saw someone at a local store with a fresh LTC asking about a "Desert Eagle" as his FIRST EVER firearm.

I don't want to get pulled into a caliber debate, but I will say that a 9mm is a great choice to have around the house. The round is cheap, easy to find, and there is sure to be more of that than any other pistol round lying around in a SHTF scenario.

I tell people what I believe myself; shoot the largest caliber I can fire comfortably and accurately. Considering we also have several other 9mm pieces in the household something like an M&P Shield in 9mm for my CCW made a lot of sense.

[sliponby]

Seems to me that if the recoil on a pistol is causing each successive shot's POI to be higher - then the pistol is controlling the shooter, and not the other way around...

[mehavey]

Let's go back to the basics:

the market for a pistol for the wife. The husband
readily admits that he has little experience with
pistols and the wife has none....

In a situation like that I'm afraid I would politely enter the conversations, and I would make a considered suggestion to everyone involved.

An auto pistol in such a situation where neither buyer has any significant background (and the person for whom the gun is being bought has none) is both ripe for the 1-shot-and-I'm-done outcome, and the wife never-ever feeling comfortable enough with the machine in her hands to operate in time of stress.

The 357/double action revolver I recommended in the initial posts was for very good reason and long experience with new shooters -- especially girls/women.

With readily-available commercial ammunition it can be a training pipsqueak all the way up to kill-anything-that-walks east of the Mississippi. And its action is easily understood, and easy to get comfortable as being "owned" by the new/shy. shooter. [Note that actually killing some one is not a topic at all -- nor should it be]

I wouldn't have any problem telling any of this to the husband, the wife, the clerk, or anyone else at that point.

And while polite, I wouldn't be shy about it.

[g.willikers]

Seems to me that if the recoil on a pistol is causing each successive shot's POI to be higher - then the pistol is controlling the shooter, and not the other way around...

With fast shooting, some muzzle rise from recoil is going to happen, for most folks anyway.
Might as well use it.
It's still controlled shooting, with mere inches between points of impact.
Not like what some folks do, going from dirt to ceiling.
See, now you're passing judgement without actually having tried it, aren't you?
Remember, if you delve to try, it's an instictive-point shooting technique.

[sliponby]

Remember, we're talking a beginner, new shooter here. My experience is it's all I can do to get some to master the basics such as proper grip, sight alignment/picture, etc., much less moving to fast shooting and NOT using the sights.

Point shooting, which I'm fully aware of, is too advanced for a newbie. You've got to take it slow and, by all means, get them to use their sights.

[g.willikers]

Fur sure.
It's an advanced technique, but not without merit.
So-called advanced techniques really aren't all that hard to master.
For someone willing to put in the time and effort, it doesn't take all that long to improve enough to be able to do most of them.
But like you say, it's not something that should be rushed.

For example, a young guy showed up at a local, well attended action type pistol match, with a very nice rig that one of the members had sold him.
He admittedly didn't have a clue about anything.
With just the advice and assistance of the other competitors, it took less than six months for him to become a solid mid field shooter.
By the end of the year, he was a reliable top fifteen (out of a general 60-80 competitors).
And he had a very demanding job and plenty of other hobbies.
So he didn't devote all his time and energy to it, either.
Just a thought.

[Blacktimberwolf]

Honestly I find it best just to sigh and move on as long as the "information" isn't inherently dangerous. My favorite was "All guns are made in a factory in Germany". ALL OF THEM. Dude was adamant. Ruger, Smith, Sig, Feedom Arms.....yep no matter all made in Germany. Since then I call this magical place Webemakinthemalldorf and I am not convinced ALL ammo come from the little country of Ammostan.

The good guns, of course. And a few from Austria.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

This makes me laugh. I'm reading a book "Cheesemonger" by an expert running a store in San Francisco and he complains about the same exact expert effect he finds in some customers and some company reps.

Me - is that a Glock 22, user incensed! NO, it a Forty!!

[txray22]

How old were the couple? I let a 50 something lady try and work the slide on my G19. She wanted a SA because it "had more bullets". She couldn't cycle the slide. As to those who are just get a shotgun for home defense.. maybe.. it's just easier to move the handgun from room to room. Even a cheap holster and the gun can be worn around the house.. If you wanted to...

I worked with a 60 something man who didn't know anything about guns.. He bought a Taurus .357 during the ammo shortage. He got the gun at a big box store but no ammo. They didn't have any .357.. I asked if they were out of .38spl too, but he gave me a look and told me he didn't buy a .38 he bought a .357. I told him he could shoot .38 in the .357 and he really gave me a strange look. The store didn't help him just made a sale. I remember he told me he was having trouble reaching the safety just behind the cylinder, I told him that was the release and that revolver didn't have a safety. Another one of those looks. He sure thought I was ignorant

[NateKirk]

I think guns, like cars, are a subject that people love to make others think they are an expert in, when in reality they haven't the slightest clue outside of what their own limited experience is

[colbad]

First, the advice to shooting for the pelvis girdle is legitimate advice. Not only are there major arteries in the pelvis, the breaking of bone there can be devastating. This is a prefered shot to defeat body armor in CQB and much easier than a head shot.

The advice I take issue with is guiding a new shooter who is just looking for a home defense gun, to an auto loader.....caliber irrelevant. Unless one is willing to practice, practice, practice with an auto loader, it is not the best choice for a SD FA, let alone for a new/non shooter. Far too many issues with limp wrist, safety disengagement, chambering, jam clearing, mag springs storage, etc.

When I get this question about the "best gun", for those who just want a gun to have at home, my recommendation is is always a medium 3"-4" frame revolver in .357 or .38. Hardly ever a need for .357 ammo but the slightly heavier barrel, good sights and light recoil makes shooting .38s fun if they practice. Most importantly, you can put it in the drawer for years and know for absolute certainty whenever you pick it up it will go bang.....6X!

[Theohazard]

Originally Posted by colbad

First, the advice to shooting for the pelvis girdle is legitimate advice. Not only are there major arteries in the pelvis, the breaking of bone there can be devastating. This is a prefered shot to defeat body armor in CQB and much easier than a head shot.

Yes, but you're referring to an advanced failure drill technique. The shooters in question here are beginners. And for beginners -- and even most non-beginners -- It's best to train to aim for high center-mass.

Originally Posted by colbad

Far too many issues with limp wrist, safety disengagement, chambering, jam clearing, mag springs storage, etc.

I think you're overstating some of the issues with semi-autos:

1. Limp-wristing isn't much if an issue with many semi-autos. And for those guns that are more prone to limp-wristing, a few minutes of training on how to properly hold a handgun almost always fixes the problem.
   
   
2. Safety disengagement isn't an issue on the many semi-auto pistols that don't have a safety.
   
   
3. Chambering a round is easy if done right. Most instructors will tell you that they've never encountered an able-bodied person who couldn't be taught to rack a slide. The problem is that most men don't do it properly because we don't need to, and then when we teach women how to do it, we're actually teaching them wrong so they have trouble.
   
   
4. Mag spring storage is a non-issue. Any properly-designed mag can be left fully loaded for decades with no noticable spring wear. Constant loading and unloading of a mag is what wears out a spring, not keeping it loaded.

That leaves the stoppage issue. I do agree that clearing a stoppage reliably takes a decent amount of training. Luckily, most modern semi-auto pistols are very reliable to begin with.

Here's the thing: I agree that a revolver is a better choice for someone who isn't willing to practice very much with their gun. But in many cases a semi-auto will be a better choice if the user is willing to practice with it; a semi-auto usually has less felt recoil and a shorter and lighter trigger pull, which are two things that can help a new shooter quite a bit.

[stagpanther]

There's a certain irony to this question--because the thread itself is in many ways a variation of this problem.

I believe you should be flattered that a customer wants to input his/her opinion. It gives you an opportunity to show why you are the expert (next thread: "don't you hate it when the gun salesman claims to be an expert and gives idiot advice" LOL). We all love firearms and we all love sharing our enthusiasm--if biased opinions were not allowed than just about every firearms forum including this one would vanish instantly. ; )

I have in fact heard military and law enforcement mention "walking the string" as a technique to use but I would assume that would be more of a advanced technique suitable to combat--but I don't personally know or train for it--I have trouble enough just effectively sighting and steadying for a single good shot.

I would think the the most important aspect to the new weapon isn't the caliber chosen so much as how well the new lady shooter is introduced--just go to Youtube and see all the videos of boyfriends/hubbies who take glee at their SO's scaring the stuffing out of themselves by firing a weapon without being really prepared for it. I know a petite blond who showed up at my place with a SS colt 45 1911 as her CCW weapon of choice--I sure wasn't going to argue her choice. LOL

[rtpzwms]

The gent described himself as "an old jarhead"

That is a specific small group within the Marine Corp. Most people claiming to be jarheads are fakes or grunts not liking the term grunt.

There's a certain irony to this question

Could it be more understated? Not much in this tread about pistol fit. Yet this is for a woman. I don't see a description to height or hand size of this person. The only dig on the autoloader that I might have with this would be the introduction of a mechanical safety. In times of stress fine motor skills might be a big problem. Also no indication of this persons commitment to training as she moves forward with her pistol choice. No indication from the NRA Instructor as to if he offered First Steps Training. He has a bird in the hand, to continue his advice would be a 4 hour starter class. Then follow it with Basic Pistol training. You could make argument for almost anything else you want to throw into this thread.

[jad0110]

Chambering a round is easy if done right. Most instructors will tell you that they've never encountered an able-bodied person who couldn't be taught to rack a slide. The problem is that most men don't do it properly because we don't need to, and then when we teach women how to do it, we're actually teaching them wrong so they have trouble.

Its not so much chambering the round as knowing the status of the weapon and clearing it. I can't tell you how many new shooters I've seen that were truly and utterly confounded by the status of a semi auto (magazine in? mag loaded? chamber empty/loaded?). They drop the mag and think its safe because no mag is in it. Or they rack the slide on a partially loaded mag THEN drop the mag, also thinking it was unloaded.

OTH, with a revolver actuate the cylinder release and swing out the cylinder. If you see empty holes, its empty and if not, its loaded. Much easier for new shooters to grasp this concept, particularly when they are nervous.

[Double Naught Spy]

Has anyone else ever run into someone who had it so wrong AND were passing on their ignorance to others?

I don't know that the old jarhead was ignorant or wrong so much as out of date. Zippering is an old method of self defense shooting that used to be taught in the military and to cops, firing and riding the recoil up as you fire. My father actually learned this as a police officer in the 1950s. It has fallen out of favor as new methods have come around, but some of the methods that have replaced it have fallen out of favor with time as well. What is being taught today will likely be out of favor, replaced by some new method in the future.

With that said, the method of zippering (not necessarily from the groin) is still taught today by some noteworthy instructors such as John Farnam.
https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/joh...andgun-course/

Disable his body and destroy his will. In this regard, John teaches the “zipper” method. The objective is to turn off the attacker and stop the aggression as quickly as possible. This usually means inflicting lethal shots—shooting at the naval and then shooting up the attacker’s midline, like a zipper, until the attacker stops coming at you.

It is a handgun and the zipper method works, but certainly isn't what is considered ideal today by most instructors. In reality, unless you hit CNS, most handgun stops are not due to physiological stops, but psychological stops. A shot to the groin may be all that is needed, or to the shoulder or leg, if you have to fire at all.

I would not have suggested to the old jarhead that a 9mm was better than a .40 for a new shooter just because of recoil, but because statistically, .40 doesn't off any better performance than a 9mm and you get the benefit of less recoil with the 9mm.

His second statement about a gun shot wound in the groin area.. groin would be the pelvis. I would consider that kind of injury to the pelvis to be devastating.

This sort of injury with a handgun usually is NOT devastating. We like to think so and maybe from a psychological standpoint, it is quite disturbing, but the devastation isn't usually immediate in the short term. Pistol wounds generally do not shatter pelvises to the point of immobility, the pelvis being a redundantly supportive structure. You might hit an artery, which is great, but that sort of applies to shooting people in lots of places.

The funny thing about suggesting folks make groin shots is that they are actually a smaller target than a center of chest or nipple/nipple/chin triangle shot.

The funny thing about the notion of shooting folks in the pelvis with a pistol to break it is that unless you hit some key smaller areas (which do not have good external landmarks for aimpoints, BTW), you aren't apt to break a critical part of pelvis. The largest part of the pelvis is the iliac blade. Pistol rounds can often pass through the blade, producing a nice hole, but without breakage. Or maybe a chunk gets broken off the edge and is very painful, but the pelvic girdle remains intact overall.

This is really a secondary or tertiary aim point (by today's thinking) and a lot of what folks think will happen if hit there is more about getting lucky more so than necessarily happening.

[pax]

Pushing the purchase of a small .357 revolver to a new shooter -- especially, but not limited to, a female new shooter -- borders on criminally stupid.

Yes, sometimes it works out. More often, it does not.

A snub revolver is an expert's gun: "easy" to fire only for those with good hand strength and exceptional finger strength, difficult to shoot well and exceptionally difficult to master.

But since most people purchase and use defense guns only as talismans (not as functional tools intended to do a specific task in the hands of a person trained to use it), it often works out -- because revolvers stored in nightstand drawers, unused, make people feel safer.

pax

[mehavey]

Originally Posted by PAX

Pushing the purchase of a small .357 revolver to a new shooter -- especially,
but not limited to, a female new shooter -- borders on criminally stupid.

Sorry for not reading the qualifying word: "small" 357 before reacting.
There we agree completely.
(BTW: Who advocated a small 357?)

However I have had no problem w/ teaching 4 generations of "girls" aged
75 to the latest 11-year old granddaugter w/ a standard 4" Model-19 -- starting out with pipqueak wadcutter and eventually standardizing on +P
depending on age at the time.

That fact that such low-medium powerammunition is commercially avail-
able just about everywhere makes it an ideal tailor-to-taste-or-need
weapon

[FireForged]

This sort of injury with a handgun usually is NOT devastating.

..yeah ok.

[medic15al]

^^^Medical Fact.^^^^ I've treated a number of pelvic shots in the field and handguns simply do not shatter the pelvis, rather making a hole if it even does that. Now a rifle caliber or shotgun slugs will usually do it, though.

Research Dr. Gary K. Roberts

[TimSr]

"Guns" is one of those subject where everyone of su who has one believes we are an "expert".


Everytime somebody makes a post titled "Question for the experts", I chuckle and think, "be prepared for every answer a man can come up with!"

[GLS_1956]

I've not had a lot of training in defensive shooting. But in the majority of cases I've always been told to aim for the "center of mass", somewhere around the solar plexus, since this allows for the greatest leeway for bullet placement and still hitting the attacker.