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Old August 25, 2018, 07:21 PM   #1
fourbore
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45 acp Broomhandle, educate me

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Originally Posted by wiki
Shanxi Type 17 (.45 ACP)

During the Warlord era of Chinese history in the early 20th century, the province of Shanxi was ruled by warlord Yen Hsi-shan, who had established a modern arms factory in his capital city of Taiyuan. Yen was equipping his troops with a locally produced copy of the Thompson submachine gun, chambered for the .45 ACP cartridge, but was experiencing supply difficulties as his troops' sidearms were 7.63mm calibre C96 handguns.[24]

Yen's solution was to produce a .45 ACP caliber version of the C96, thus standardizing ammunition and making supply logistics easier.[24] Designated Type 17, production of the .45 caliber handgun began in 1929 at the Taiyuan Arsenal and ended in 1931. They are inscribed (in Chinese) "Type 17" on the left hand side of the gun, and "Republic Year Eighteen, Made in Shansi" on the right hand side.[24] They were issued (along with Thompson SMGs) to railway guards in the province as defense against bandits and other warlords.

Besides being chambered for a larger cartridge, the Shanxi .45 pistols use a noticeably larger frame than their 7.63mm counterparts, with the 10-round magazine extending below the trigger guard and a 155 mm (6.1 in) barrel. It was loaded using two five-round stripper clips rather than the single 10-round stripper clips of the standard 7.63mm Mauser. Because of the overall increase in size, Type 17 pistols share no interchangeable parts with any other C96 variant.

Most of the Shanxi .45 pistols were melted down after the Communist victory in the Chinese Civil War, largely due to their odd caliber for Chinese Communist standards, but a few examples were exported overseas for sale on the commercial market.[24] Approximately 8,500 Shanxi .45 caliber Broomhandle pistols are believed to have been produced by the Taiyuan Arsenal, but there is some debate as to how many of the Shanxi .45 caliber Broomhandle pistols currently on the commercial market were actually produced for Yen's troops, and how many are more recent productions for the US collectors' market.
Anybody here got one? This has to be one cool gun. Unlike the P08, there are some of these around. Real ones. But where?

What is the market like on these: Honest well worn, beat to hell, refinish, or museum piece. I have no idea. Google was not very helpful. I did find a 4,000 price on something.

What are the more recent productions all about. Another collector pit fall or an honest variation on the theme?
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Old August 25, 2018, 08:22 PM   #2
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Since I posted this, I went back to Gun Broker and apparently my computer had hung up and after this was posted I got 3/5 hits for 45 acp Bromhandles. Prices running 3200 to 3500 excepting the usual high dollar exception. I guess, all I need now is money. Story of my life.

Are these amazing guns or not?
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Old August 26, 2018, 08:52 AM   #3
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I remember when these where imported back in the 1980s,
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Old August 26, 2018, 09:23 AM   #4
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Quote:
Are these amazing guns or not?
I highly doubt it. early chinese industry was even more maligned than it is now. one of the major reasons the communistis essentially started from scratch with their small arms factories after seizing power, using Russian tooling is because for all intents and purposes, what they had in place was junk.
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Old August 26, 2018, 12:16 PM   #5
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I did ask a couple sellers on gun broker if they test fired the guns. N O from both.

I would plan to use C&R if it was legit. That is another reason I was posting here. Some of these guns are old, but; apparently some were made in 1970's or 80's. Now, that maybe an error and in fact they were imported in the 70s and all made prior? Is there any marking to sell the C&R from the new. Or perhaps all Broomhandles are curios by definition that the value is as a collectable rather that for shooting.

The flip side of the when built is a circa 1980 could (atleast potentially) be better made than a 1930 gun. Or the other way around?
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Old August 26, 2018, 12:33 PM   #6
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Wikipedia is not a reliable source for good documented info. Anybody with internet access can post anything they want there.
Yen Hsi-shan ruled China from 1949 to 1950. Not exactly early 20th Century. Buy the gun, not the story.
"...3200 to 3500..." One of 'em in "VERY GOOD" condition was sold by Rock Island auction this past February for $1840. So $3200 to $3500 is optimistic. Mind you, they have another complete with the holster/stock they're estimating will sell for $2,750 - $4,250.
"...Chinese Communist standards..." That's funny. They used anything they could get their hands on. There was no standard.
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Old August 26, 2018, 03:18 PM   #7
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That is a new one on me, thank you.

My understanding was that the Chinese did have a factory that turned out some pretty good armaments. May not apply here.

Chinese Communists of course would shift to Russian machinery, stamped out guns are not the same as steel receiver.

A bit like the 1917 in WWII. Yes machinery could shift to 1903, not worth it. In this case not designed for the primary SK or AK either.
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Old August 26, 2018, 05:33 PM   #8
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Quote:
One of 'em in "VERY GOOD" condition was sold by Rock Island auction this past February for $1840
Very helpful, thank you
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Old August 26, 2018, 11:19 PM   #9
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Last edited by tangolima; August 27, 2018 at 02:27 AM.
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Old August 27, 2018, 07:31 AM   #10
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I've seen two, both imported with the other Chinese Broomhandles back in the late 1980s/early 1990s.

In general, Chinese-made Broomhandles ranged from pretty darned good to no way in hell am I going to shoot that thing...

Both of the .45s fell into the latter category. On one I swear the steel was so soft that you could gouge it with a fingernail... OK, not that bad, but the first thing the owner did when he got it was to have it Rockwell tested.... it had a lot in common with well aged cheddar cheese...

He never was brave enough to shoot it.
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Old August 29, 2018, 02:45 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ozarkhillbilly View Post
I remember when these where imported back in the 1980s,
I remember most of the guns had been "ridden hard and put away wet" and the prices were way out of my reach....but they all sold and no more have turned up .
Gary
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Old August 29, 2018, 03:38 PM   #12
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I bet there are Russian warehouses full of Mausers, also Lugers and Smith & Wessons that our wise leaders will not let them sell here.
If we could get their surplus pistols like we can their old rifles, it would be a treasure trove.
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Old August 29, 2018, 08:59 PM   #13
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There is a good book by Dunlap and Belford about the Mauser pistol and how it was invented by a Mauser smithy. There are pictures of the Chinese copy 45's. Pictures of presentation pieces and other Mauser porn that would make your mouth water.
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Old August 30, 2018, 05:38 AM   #14
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"I bet there are Russian warehouses full of Mausers, also Lugers and Smith & Wessons that our wise leaders will not let them sell here."

It's been said by people who did a lot of the exportation of arms from Russia to the American surplus market after the wall fell that there really isn't much of anything left.
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Old August 30, 2018, 07:49 AM   #15
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I know we are to the bottom of the barrel on MNs, Nagants and Tokarevs.

Did I miss the influx of Russian Broomhandles? We sure got in a lot of Chicom surplus and a wave of Russian guns would certainly have been noticeable.
.
Did the Soviets scrap their .44 Russians? S&W did a very good business on them, not to mention Belgian and Russian copies. I remember an old account of a .44 Russian being captured in Korea. Maybe they gave all of them to tin pot dictators who then junked them in favor of more modern weapons.

There were a lot fewer actual Russian contract Lugers than I thought. If they turned up the rest of them it would sure get them some dollars.
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Old August 30, 2018, 10:00 AM   #16
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Quote:
I bet there are Russian warehouses full of Mausers, also Lugers and Smith & Wessons that our wise leaders will not let them sell here."

It's been said by people who did a lot of the exportation of arms from Russia to the American surplus market after the wall fell that there really isn't much of anything left.
There were mint, but demilled Thompson SMGs coming from Russia, 10-15 years ago.
Apparently, every lend-lease tank we sent them had a Thompson on board, and Russia didn't want to deal with supply headaches of another cartridge, so the Tommy guns were stored in a cave, somewhere.
SARCO was selling the rear sights for over $200, as I recall.
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Old August 30, 2018, 01:46 PM   #17
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I remember those ads.
Couldn't be bothered to distribute some of the .45 ammo we no doubt sent.
(Several years ago there were large amounts of WWII .45 reimported from Europe.)
Kind of like the Chicoms munging 1911s up to shoot .30 Tokarev/Mauser.
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Old August 30, 2018, 11:26 PM   #18
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I wish I bought a Shenshi when they were being imported.
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Old August 31, 2018, 05:57 AM   #19
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"Did I miss the influx of Russian Broomhandles? We sure got in a lot of Chicom surplus and a wave of Russian guns would certainly have been noticeable."

It's a pretty bold assumption that there are actually any Broomhandles, No. 3s, or Winchester Model 95s left to reimport.

The Soviets purchased roughly 20,000 Broomhandles, but they (unlike the Chinese) NEVER manufactured them. They were never that widespread, and it's likely that most of those were lost during WWII.

The same with the S&W revolvers. Yes, the Russians purchased/manufactured 300,000 of them, but they soldiered through multiple wars. No. 3s were being issued out of desperation in the early stages of the war to divisions that were thrown into battle virtually unequipped and untrained and which suffered horrific losses.

The same with the Winchester Model 95s, only the 95s had to make it through two world wars.

It's not as if the Russians/Soviets took possession of those guns and immediately stored them in archive grade facilities so that they could later release them on the American surplus market.


Oh, and let's not forget that the Soviets also provided arms and ammunition to the Republicans during the Spanish Civil War, and the Soviets very kindly send them a lot of Winchester 1895s...

https://scwmosin.weebly.com/the-1895...ter-rifle.html

The same with No 3.s
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Old August 31, 2018, 06:07 AM   #20
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"Couldn't be bothered to distribute some of the .45 ammo we no doubt sent."

The Soviets already had a common submachine gun/handgun cartridge. Why put additional pressure on the supply chain by issuing firearms and ammo that would have been a drop in the bucket compared to the standard types already in use?
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Old August 31, 2018, 08:49 AM   #21
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The Soviets sent us a good number of 1895s, too. I recall the ads and the rifles on shelves during the Golden Age of Surplus.

I was thinking of German policy on oddball weapons. They were said to have issued them for occupation of the country where they were made, so as to be in reach of parts and even ammo e.g. 1914 Norwegian .45.
The Russians weren't doing much occupation, but it seems they could have gotten some use out of donated gear. How much SMG shooting is a tanker going to do, anyhow?

Oh, well, no point debating history, they didn't and that's that.
I saw the ads for their Thompson "parts kits" and thought they were interesting but useless.
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Old September 1, 2018, 11:55 AM   #22
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All 45 ACP Broomhandles were made in Nationalist China (KuoMinTang) before the Commies overran the place.
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Old September 2, 2018, 08:08 PM   #23
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Back in the 1980's Federal Ordinance imported thousands of these and put new barrels, springs, stocks, and reworked them. I look on G-broker every week but someday I will find one.
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Old September 2, 2018, 10:09 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luger fan View Post
Back in the 1980's Federal Ordinance imported thousands of these and put new barrels, springs, stocks, and reworked them. I look on G-broker every week but someday I will find one.
You can't put a new barrel on a broomhandle, but relining is an option. Not cheap though.

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Old September 2, 2018, 10:17 PM   #25
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Sure you can. Saw the old one off, ream out the stub, and thread for a barrel like a Luger.
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