.54 Pistol Cartridges - Page 3

Model12Win · January 5, 2016, 07:08 PM

Quote:

It may very well be that you are discovering the inherent limitations of the firearm with period ammunition.

Indeed. Perhaps the original guns in military service also suffered from issues during reloading.

The head of the ram rod on my horse pistol miked out at almost exactly .54, so the exact same diameter as the bore. I noticed while shooting that the rod wouldn't even get very far past the muzzle before the fouling kept it from moving. So, I sanded down the diameter of the head and it now mikes out at .505". In addition, I put a screw into the threads at the rear of the rod and filed the screw head to match the diameter of the threaded brass end piece. Now, instead of the sharp concave thread tip, it's now perfectly smooth and much more comfortable to use.

I would just love to get the gun to be able to shoot 10 shots or so before gumming up badly enough to not be able to use the pistol's own ramrod, as how it would be loaded in the field.

I also used my digital calipers to measure my paper thickness and it is .002" thick, so just as thick as the Lowe's masking paper.

I am going to form a mandrel from a 1/2" thick dowel rod and will be sure to load the cartridges "tighter". That combined with the .509" balls should help things I think.

I'll keep everyone updated on the progress!

Hawg · January 5, 2016, 07:28 PM

I understand wanting to be historically accurate but if you want the thing to shoot make paper cartridges with just the powder charge and use a PRB.

Model12Win · January 5, 2016, 08:13 PM

Quote:

I understand wanting to be historically accurate but if you want the thing to shoot make paper cartridges with just the powder charge and use a PRB.

How? I am not sure how to do that without the string.

Also, I would prefer to load using historically correct cartridges if possible. That's part of the fun and appeal for me. I can always load with a lubed patch and round ball when I want as that's worked super well so far. But loading with original style cartridges... that's a whole new level of fun.

I just need to make it work a little better...

**4V50 Gary** · January 5, 2016, 08:30 PM

One thing to bear in mind about these pistols is that they were generally fired once and then the cold steel (swords) came into play. I doubt if any dragoon, light cavalryman ever fired a dozen rounds in the course of a cavalry battle. Don't be disappointed that you can't go out and fire a cartridge box full in one session.

Model12Win · January 5, 2016, 11:03 PM

I understand.

But that's not going to keep me from trying LOL!

Okay, so I just got back from the Home Depot with a 1/2" dowel rod. I cut it down to manageable size and sanded one end into a half sphere shape.

I rolled up a new cartridge with the .509" ball, making sure to keep the paper and string tight and especially to have the string tight around the neck of the cartridge. I think the new former is working far better than the close pin I was using. The finished cartridge looked much nicer with fewer wrinkles.

I didn't put powder in, and instead tore the paper were it would be if loading, and put the package down the bore. To compare, I also removed the powder from one of my older .520" cartridges for comparison.

The .509 cartridge slid right down the bore easily, making slight contact with the sides of the bore. The .520" cartridge was a much firmer fit, actually had to press down hard with my thumb. I noticed some inconsistency with the .520" cartridges when loading at the range, that got worse with each shot so I am thinking my paper and string weren't tight enough around the ball and that coupled with the fouling is what caused the ball to get stuck but a smaller ball might well still be needed.

I will try and roll another, tight cartridge with a .520" ball and see if it is still easy to load. If not, I think I will make a batch of .509" cartridges and go test them at the range for accuracy and ease of loading.

Hopefully it goes better than last time! If not, I have a "super pistol rod" coming from Dixie Gun Works that should make removing a stuck ball much easier.

PS: I am wondering if I should downgrade my charge by about 20%, to 44 grains, to see if that cuts down on fouling residue. Does anyone think that will help?

maillemaker · January 5, 2016, 11:10 PM

I would suspect that you will find a more efficient burn at a less-than-full service charge. Almost certainly find higher accuracy that way also.

Steve

foolzrushn · January 5, 2016, 11:47 PM

Another picture or so might be nice, as you change your cartridges and methods. Just a thought.

Branko · January 6, 2016, 10:41 AM

Less then service charge isn't in the spirit of things, though.

Model12Win · January 7, 2016, 12:02 AM

Thanks all, I am in the process of making ten more cartridges and will post pictures when done.

Model12Win · January 7, 2016, 11:02 PM

Okay everyone, I have ten new cartridges loaded with the smaller .509" balls and a new properly sized mandrel:

The whole cartridge is a lot tighter now. I predict these will load and shoot quite a bit easier, but will still group well enough. I will have to test them though, but since it's so cold right now I'm not sure when I'll get to the range. I also got my "super pistol rod" from Dixie Gun Works today and it seems to be pretty decent, basically a rigid plastic stick.

Stay tuned, I'll let you all know of any new progress.

**Mike Irwin** · January 8, 2016, 12:08 PM

When I was in college, I had an internship with the state museum in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, and did a lot of work in their military history collections, including LOTS of vintage military cartridges from the Civil War era and before.

I seem to recall that the paper seemed to be primarily a buff or off white color.

As one would expect (due to the huge number of companies contracted to supply ammo and getting their cartridge paper from a variety of sources) the Civil War era cartridges had a lot more variation in color.

The paper used at this time would have been cotton, linen, or other natural plant fiber based, as wood pulp paper manufacture in the United States didn't kick off to any great degree until after the Civil War.

Wood pulp papers also tend to be highly acidic and decay over time (think of a 1950s paperback, newspaper, or magazine, the pages are often yellow and brittle and crumble when touched). Natural fiber paper, however, is quite stable long-term and generally doesn't change color much, if at all, over time.

Model12Win · January 8, 2016, 05:04 PM

Very interesting Mike!

Did any of the cartridges resemble mine?

**4V50 Gary** · January 8, 2016, 06:19 PM

What Mike says about paper is correct. I have a few books that were published around 1820-1840s and they're still readable unlike some old paperbacks of mine that are very yellow (and if left in the sun would crumble). Cotton-linen fibre paper enjoys greater longevity than the wood based (and acid rich) newsprint.

Model12Win · January 8, 2016, 06:31 PM

Very interesting! All the cotton paper I've ever dealt with seemed very thick. Probably too thick for this purpose.

**Mike Irwin** · January 8, 2016, 10:43 PM

"Did any of the cartridges resemble mine?"

To be honest, I really don't remember seeing any pistol cartridges for the earlier single shot pistols. There may have been some, I just don't recall.

Regarding paper, paper mills using water power to automate manufacture have been around since the 13th century, possibly even earlier, and have had the ability to vary the "weight" of the paper stock to whatever the demand has been.

The Fourdrinier process, which allowed the manufacture of continuous rolls of paper of virtually any size, was invented in the 1840s and was what really launched wood pulp paper.

William Rittenhouse was the first paper maker in the United States, in Philadelphia in about 1690.

There's a type of paper known as Cartridge Paper, a heavy, rough paper now used as a drawing medium, but which took its name because it was used for firearms cartridges.

Wikipedia has a pretty extensive section on paper cartridges....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paper_cartridge

" I have a few books that were published around 1820-1840s and they're still readable..."

I have a book printed in London in 1595. It's still perfectly readable. Or it would be if I could read Latin.

Model12Win · January 8, 2016, 11:24 PM

Thanks Mike!

I hope mine at least look half way historically correct. They are pretty fun to make.

**Mike Irwin** · January 12, 2016, 08:20 AM

Just found this picture of a cartridge for the Model 1841 rifle.

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/foru...tach_id=856175

This is supposedly an authentic period cartridge.

It matches very closely the color of the paper I saw when I worked at the State Museum in Pennsylvania.

This is a particularly nice picture because you can see both the rough texture of the paper as well as get an idea for how heavy it is.

Model12Win · January 12, 2016, 11:34 AM

Very nice! I am going to shoot my 10 new cartridges this weekend, and will be sure to let everyone know how it goes.

Model12Win · January 16, 2016, 07:17 PM

UPDATE:

Hello everyone! Well I got my horse pistol out to the range today to test the new paper cartridges I made for it. To say the test was succesful is a gross understatement:

I fired ten cartridges, and all worked well. Accuracy was amazingly good as you can see. I certainly think that I'm better off with the .509" balls. Ease of loading and the accuracy prove that. I did not have any jams like I had when using cartridges with .520" balls.

Guys, I think I've found my formula:

-Duck brand packing paper
-.509" cast round lead balls
-.6mm thick linen string
-54 grains of GOEX FFg black powder

If anyone is reading this and has the same gun, I believe you would do well to start with this formula if you want to make paper cartridges. I am very pleased with how this project has turned out, now all I need to do is make another couple dozen for shooting next week!!

maillemaker · January 17, 2016, 12:16 AM

Looks like you found the winning combination!

Steve

Model12Win · January 17, 2016, 12:52 AM

Thanks, Steve!

I was truly amazed at how accurate these were. I dare say the most accurate load I've found for the gun! I believe the stout charge helps.

**Mike Irwin** · January 17, 2016, 10:57 AM

Very nice!

How about taking pictures at various points of the cartridge manufacture process to show how it's done?

Model12Win · January 17, 2016, 11:13 AM

Mike, I used this method:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8ogJlaLi3k

January 5, 2016, 08:30 PM	#54
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,832	One thing to bear in mind about these pistols is that they were generally fired once and then the cold steel (swords) came into play. I doubt if any dragoon, light cavalryman ever fired a dozen rounds in the course of a cavalry battle. Don't be disappointed that you can't go out and fire a cartridge box full in one session. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

January 5, 2016, 11:47 PM	#57
foolzrushn Senior Member Join Date: April 29, 2015 Location: middle of the Santa Fe Trail Posts: 396	Another picture or so might be nice, as you change your cartridges and methods. Just a thought. __________________ If you feel that you're pretty important...you should think about your significance to the Universe....and re-evaluate ! certified 'soap welder'

January 8, 2016, 12:08 PM	#61
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,383	When I was in college, I had an internship with the state museum in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, and did a lot of work in their military history collections, including LOTS of vintage military cartridges from the Civil War era and before. I seem to recall that the paper seemed to be primarily a buff or off white color. As one would expect (due to the huge number of companies contracted to supply ammo and getting their cartridge paper from a variety of sources) the Civil War era cartridges had a lot more variation in color. The paper used at this time would have been cotton, linen, or other natural plant fiber based, as wood pulp paper manufacture in the United States didn't kick off to any great degree until after the Civil War. Wood pulp papers also tend to be highly acidic and decay over time (think of a 1950s paperback, newspaper, or magazine, the pages are often yellow and brittle and crumble when touched). Natural fiber paper, however, is quite stable long-term and generally doesn't change color much, if at all, over time. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

January 8, 2016, 06:19 PM	#63
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,832	What Mike says about paper is correct. I have a few books that were published around 1820-1840s and they're still readable unlike some old paperbacks of mine that are very yellow (and if left in the sun would crumble). Cotton-linen fibre paper enjoys greater longevity than the wood based (and acid rich) newsprint. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

January 8, 2016, 10:43 PM	#65
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,383	"Did any of the cartridges resemble mine?" To be honest, I really don't remember seeing any pistol cartridges for the earlier single shot pistols. There may have been some, I just don't recall. Regarding paper, paper mills using water power to automate manufacture have been around since the 13th century, possibly even earlier, and have had the ability to vary the "weight" of the paper stock to whatever the demand has been. The Fourdrinier process, which allowed the manufacture of continuous rolls of paper of virtually any size, was invented in the 1840s and was what really launched wood pulp paper. William Rittenhouse was the first paper maker in the United States, in Philadelphia in about 1690. There's a type of paper known as Cartridge Paper, a heavy, rough paper now used as a drawing medium, but which took its name because it was used for firearms cartridges. Wikipedia has a pretty extensive section on paper cartridges.... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paper_cartridge " I have a few books that were published around 1820-1840s and they're still readable..." I have a book printed in London in 1595. It's still perfectly readable. Or it would be if I could read Latin. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

January 5, 2016, 07:28 PM	#52
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	I understand wanting to be historically accurate but if you want the thing to shoot make paper cartridges with just the powder charge and use a PRB.

January 5, 2016, 11:03 PM	#55
Model12Win Junior member Join Date: October 20, 2012 Posts: 5,854	I understand. But that's not going to keep me from trying LOL! Okay, so I just got back from the Home Depot with a 1/2" dowel rod. I cut it down to manageable size and sanded one end into a half sphere shape. I rolled up a new cartridge with the .509" ball, making sure to keep the paper and string tight and especially to have the string tight around the neck of the cartridge. I think the new former is working far better than the close pin I was using. The finished cartridge looked much nicer with fewer wrinkles. I didn't put powder in, and instead tore the paper were it would be if loading, and put the package down the bore. To compare, I also removed the powder from one of my older .520" cartridges for comparison. The .509 cartridge slid right down the bore easily, making slight contact with the sides of the bore. The .520" cartridge was a much firmer fit, actually had to press down hard with my thumb. I noticed some inconsistency with the .520" cartridges when loading at the range, that got worse with each shot so I am thinking my paper and string weren't tight enough around the ball and that coupled with the fouling is what caused the ball to get stuck but a smaller ball might well still be needed. I will try and roll another, tight cartridge with a .520" ball and see if it is still easy to load. If not, I think I will make a batch of .509" cartridges and go test them at the range for accuracy and ease of loading. Hopefully it goes better than last time! If not, I have a "super pistol rod" coming from Dixie Gun Works that should make removing a stuck ball much easier. PS: I am wondering if I should downgrade my charge by about 20%, to 44 grains, to see if that cuts down on fouling residue. Does anyone think that will help?

January 5, 2016, 11:10 PM	#56
maillemaker Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2010 Posts: 1,635	I would suspect that you will find a more efficient burn at a less-than-full service charge. Almost certainly find higher accuracy that way also. Steve

January 6, 2016, 10:41 AM	#58
Branko Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2015 Location: Croatia Posts: 188	Less then service charge isn't in the spirit of things, though.

January 7, 2016, 12:02 AM	#59
Model12Win Junior member Join Date: October 20, 2012 Posts: 5,854	Thanks all, I am in the process of making ten more cartridges and will post pictures when done.

January 7, 2016, 11:02 PM	#60
Model12Win Junior member Join Date: October 20, 2012 Posts: 5,854	Okay everyone, I have ten new cartridges loaded with the smaller .509" balls and a new properly sized mandrel: The whole cartridge is a lot tighter now. I predict these will load and shoot quite a bit easier, but will still group well enough. I will have to test them though, but since it's so cold right now I'm not sure when I'll get to the range. I also got my "super pistol rod" from Dixie Gun Works today and it seems to be pretty decent, basically a rigid plastic stick. Stay tuned, I'll let you all know of any new progress.

January 8, 2016, 05:04 PM	#62
Model12Win Junior member Join Date: October 20, 2012 Posts: 5,854	Very interesting Mike! Did any of the cartridges resemble mine?

January 8, 2016, 06:31 PM	#64
Model12Win Junior member Join Date: October 20, 2012 Posts: 5,854	Very interesting! All the cotton paper I've ever dealt with seemed very thick. Probably too thick for this purpose.

January 8, 2016, 11:24 PM	#66
Model12Win Junior member Join Date: October 20, 2012 Posts: 5,854	Thanks Mike! I hope mine at least look half way historically correct. They are pretty fun to make.

January 12, 2016, 08:20 AM	#67
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,383	Just found this picture of a cartridge for the Model 1841 rifle. http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/foru...tach_id=856175 This is supposedly an authentic period cartridge. It matches very closely the color of the paper I saw when I worked at the State Museum in Pennsylvania. This is a particularly nice picture because you can see both the rough texture of the paper as well as get an idea for how heavy it is. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

January 12, 2016, 11:34 AM	#68
Model12Win Junior member Join Date: October 20, 2012 Posts: 5,854	Very nice! I am going to shoot my 10 new cartridges this weekend, and will be sure to let everyone know how it goes.

January 16, 2016, 07:17 PM	#69
Model12Win Junior member Join Date: October 20, 2012 Posts: 5,854	*UPDATE:* Hello everyone! Well I got my horse pistol out to the range today to test the new paper cartridges I made for it. To say the test was succesful is a gross understatement: I fired ten cartridges, and all worked well. Accuracy was amazingly good as you can see. I certainly think that I'm better off with the .509" balls. Ease of loading and the accuracy prove that. I did not have any jams like I had when using cartridges with .520" balls. Guys, I think I've found my formula: -Duck brand packing paper -.509" cast round lead balls -.6mm thick linen string -54 grains of GOEX FFg black powder If anyone is reading this and has the same gun, I believe you would do well to start with this formula if you want to make paper cartridges. I am very pleased with how this project has turned out, now all I need to do is make another couple dozen for shooting next week!!

January 17, 2016, 12:16 AM	#70
maillemaker Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2010 Posts: 1,635	Looks like you found the winning combination! Steve

January 17, 2016, 12:52 AM	#71
Model12Win Junior member Join Date: October 20, 2012 Posts: 5,854	Thanks, Steve! I was truly amazed at how accurate these were. I dare say the most accurate load I've found for the gun! I believe the stout charge helps.

January 17, 2016, 10:57 AM	#72
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,383	Very nice! How about taking pictures at various points of the cartridge manufacture process to show how it's done? __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

January 17, 2016, 11:13 AM	#73
Model12Win Junior member Join Date: October 20, 2012 Posts: 5,854	Mike, I used this method: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8ogJlaLi3k