Never Single Load (no magazine) a Semi Auto Pistol - Page 2

Marquezj16 · December 13, 2011, 08:37 AM

I thought I read this in one of my manuals. You can single load in case of a lost magazine. I can't remember which pistol though.

But I agree, it can be done with some and not others. And then again, probably won't make a habit of doing it.

drail · December 13, 2011, 09:41 AM

So we have determined that the 1911 is " a piece of junk" and it is "obsolete".

My drill segeant would have loved you.

baddarryl · December 13, 2011, 10:31 AM

I have done it dozens of times to my P89 with no issues at all, but after being told this at an IDPA match I won't do it anymore just to be safe.

RedBowTies88 · December 13, 2011, 10:40 AM

I didn't know this,

I've been handloading the chamber in my Saiga and my pump shotgun and my marlin 795 for a while now and never had and issues. I guess i need to rethink my methods..

Walklightly · December 13, 2011, 12:15 PM

Give one up for revolvers, you don't don't a mag.

Silent Bob · December 13, 2011, 12:53 PM

The manual for the old Ruger P-Series pistols stated that the pistol could be used without the magazine, such as for training purposes (or in the event of lost magazines), by loading a round directly into the chamber.

pgdion · December 13, 2011, 12:58 PM

Quote:

I agree as a general rule that this is a bad idea but I was under the impression that the beretta 92 / M9 could do this without harm?
Anyone know if this is fact or fiction?

You've heard correct Coach.
The Beretta 92/96 series is in fact designed so you can do this. In the event of magazine failure or loss, the gun is designed so that you can manually load and fire a single round. The extractor pin is spring loaded and tapered so that it will slide over a single round as the slide closes. Works as advertised.

Sheikyourbootie · December 13, 2011, 01:30 PM

I tried loading my CZ83 with a dummy round. The external extractor just flexes without apparent undue strain as it goes into battery. I'll peruse the owners manual again to see if I can find mention to avoid this practice.

lee n. field · December 13, 2011, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Unless your semi auto pistol has a tip up barrel like some of the small Beretta's and Taurus semi auto's,never load a single round in the chamber-by hand-not using the magazine-of your semi auto and drop the slide on it.

-----You could damage the extractor-----.

-----Always load the round in a magazine,insert the magazine in the handgun and rack the slide to load it.---------

I never knew this.

It's not always true.

The manual for my Ruger P90 explicitly recommends this to load a single cartridge.

The Makarov's extractor is designed to hop the cartridge rim, each and every time.

Scimmia · December 13, 2011, 03:51 PM

Quote:

I think it would have a lot to do with the shape of the extractor, wouldn't it?

I'm thinking of German K98s vs US Springfields as an example...

The K98 has a flat-faced extractor. You can't drop a round in the chamber and push the bolt home, the extractor won't cam over the cartridge rim.

On the Springfield, though, the extractor is beveled. Dropping a round in the chamber and closing the bolt results in the bevel on the extractor face allowing it to cam over the rim.

Just because it can do it doesn't mean it's good for the extractor. Many pistols are capable of it, but over time it will cause problems. I know the Springfield is controlled feed, but it's also a battle rifle. It only makes sense to be able to single load in an emergency, but I won't make a habit of it.

Most rifles are push-feed, though, and it obviously isn't a problem there as that's the designed function. Push-feed is rare in pistol design.

Therealkoop · December 13, 2011, 04:06 PM

Quote:

A pistol whos extractor will break if slammed home on a loaded chamber is a piece of junk.

There's no reason for the extractor to be designed that way. What if you had a failure to extract? The proper way to deal with that is to drop the mag and rack the slide a couple of times to see if it can grab the rim and get the casing out. If your pistol can't do that without damaging the extractor, it's not a very well designed pistol.

Time to get something better.

Its hilarious how ignorant you are of modern pistol design. I suppose 90% of all pistols are not well designed?

Nobody claimed that it ensures breakage or damage. Its simply not intended to be used in that manner and doing so RISKS damage. If there was a situation where you had a failure to extract and had to have it out that moment, then it would be acceptable to try your method of removal. To do so on a daily basis is unessacary.

I can rev my car up to 7k in first gear during hard acceleration. But nobody in thier right mind would drive around for extended periods of time in first gear going 35mph at 7k. Its stupid and serves no purpose and risks damage.

1911Tuner · December 13, 2011, 05:55 PM

In the beginning, the 1911's extractor was made of 1090 steel, of Austenitic grain size 7 or smaller...hardened and drawn to a spring temper, and the extractor was very flexible. Modern 4340 extractors aren't nearly as flexible.

It has a bevel on the nose. This serves two purposes. It provides clearance with the extractor groove on the case, and it's a camming surface that allows for single-loading in the event of a lost or damaged magazine. This isn't the way the extractor was intended to work, but it would tolerate it in an emergency as an expedient means to keep the pistol firing and provide its owner a chance of staying alive.

Also, in the beginning, the extractor...along with every other part of the gun except the frame...was considered to be expendable. Unit armorers replaced parts if they even suspected that they were close to failure when the pistol was slated for service in a war zone. Parts are cheap. Lives aren't.

P97 · December 13, 2011, 06:51 PM

I've done it many times on my Ruger P-series and never had a problem. After looking at the extractor, I can't see where it would cause a problem with them.

shortwave · December 13, 2011, 07:08 PM

Quote:

A pistol whos extractor will break if slammed home on a loade chamber is a piece junk.....Time to get something better.

THATS IT, I'M THROWING AWAY ALL MY 1911'S IN THE SCRAP PILE

Yea, fat chance!

Therealkoop · December 13, 2011, 08:04 PM

Better toss any sigs, glocks, or M&P's you have in the bin while you are at it.

johnbt · December 13, 2011, 08:44 PM

"A pistol whos extractor will break if slammed home on a loaded chamber is a piece of junk."

Thanks, I needed a laugh today.

Evil Monkey · December 13, 2011, 09:34 PM

Considering I have learned that the 1911 can if fact handle a single load feed/failure to extract racking under emergency situations, maybe it's not that bad.

Given it's a John Browning design, I should've expected it.

Aristides · December 13, 2011, 09:45 PM

Sorry, guys, you lost me on all the mechanical details. I'm in finance, not mechanical engineering.

I've always thought I could dry-fire if I drop a spent casing in the tube. If I do this, am I protecting the firing pin while unwittingly risking the extractor???

**44 AMP** · December 13, 2011, 10:16 PM

The devil is in the details, and there are almost as many different details as there are gun designs.

AND, take note everyone, there are other ways to single load the auto pistol than dropping a round in the chamber and letting the slide slam home on it!

Leaving aside the emergency combat lost/dropped your last mag, need a round up the spout NOW! situations, where is the rush to load a single round in the barrel?

Many designs allow for the extractor to pivot or flex and snap over the case rim. The 1911 doesn't. Not without needless strain on the extractor.

But you could fit the round under the extractor and ease it into the chamber. After all, what's the rush? Doing that places no extra strain on the extractor, and gets the same result, loaded chamber.

I have one handgun where the owner's manual specifically FORBIDS dropping a round in the chamber and allowing the bolt to slam home. And its about the round firing, not the extractor!

Sarge · December 13, 2011, 11:33 PM

There is no 'rush' to single load. The reasons might be as varied as not wishing to have to top off the mag every time, to avoiding setback of your chamber load by bouncing it up the feedramp repeatedly.

As has been mentioned before, single-loading is facilitated by steeply-beveled extractors designed for that expressed purpose and the practice is approved in the manual of arms of certain pistols.

As has also been mentioned by several of us here, we engaged in this practice for years with minimal extractor replacement and even that couldn't be traced to single loading. It's worth mentioning that I've purchased brand-spanking new 1911 extractors from well-known, top-drawer parts houses that were broke when I got 'em.

Some designs will tolerate single loading and others won't. The user ought to be interested enough in his personal weapons, to know the difference. To generalize to the point of damning or recommending the practice, to all pistols, is generalizing just a little too much.

Walklightly · December 14, 2011, 07:45 AM

Isn't the extractor made of spring steel?

pgdion · December 14, 2011, 11:44 AM

Aristides, again, it depends on your gun. Some, like the Beretta 92, are designed so you can do this. Many are not. Doesn't make them inferior, they just aren't designed for it and you could break the extractor. Your manual should tell you if it can be single loaded like that but snap caps are probably a better way to go.

I do the same thing as you, but only with my 92FS. None of my other guns are designed for loading singles directly. I'm going to pick up some snap caps for them as I'm not a huge fan of dry firing into nothing either (although I've seen no problems with it yet).

**Aguila Blanca** · December 14, 2011, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Walklightly

Isn't the extractor made of spring steel?

The M1911 extractor was originally made of "spring" steel. Now they are typically made from "tool" steel ... if they aren't MIM.

See post #37. It's unlikely you'll find anyone alive who knows more about making 1911s run than 1911Tuner.

drail · December 14, 2011, 02:43 PM

Agreed. He has seen some 1911 malfunctions and figured out why in his day. He also loves dogs so he's OK in my book.

December 13, 2011, 10:40 AM	#29
RedBowTies88 Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2011 Location: 609 NJ Posts: 705	I didn't know this, I've been handloading the chamber in my Saiga and my pump shotgun and my marlin 795 for a while now and never had and issues. I guess i need to rethink my methods.. __________________ "...with liberty and justice for all." (Must be 21. Void where prohibited. Some restrictions may apply. Not available in all states.)

December 13, 2011, 06:51 PM	#38
P97 Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2006 Location: Panama, Ok. Posts: 660	I've done it many times on my Ruger P-series and never had a problem. After looking at the extractor, I can't see where it would cause a problem with them. __________________ Visit: Early Risers Coffee Shop Happy and Safe Shooting !!!

December 13, 2011, 09:34 PM	#42
Evil Monkey Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2005 Posts: 812	Considering I have learned that the 1911 can if fact handle a single load feed/failure to extract racking under emergency situations, maybe it's not that bad. Given it's a John Browning design, I should've expected it. __________________ BREAKING NEWS: Local man found in the street yelling "1911" and "45" while drooling, more at 11:00.

December 13, 2011, 09:45 PM	#43
Aristides Senior Member Join Date: May 18, 2008 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 352	So...about the dry-fire thing... Sorry, guys, you lost me on all the mechanical details. I'm in finance, not mechanical engineering. I've always thought I could dry-fire if I drop a spent casing in the tube. If I do this, am I protecting the firing pin while unwittingly risking the extractor??? __________________ If we all threw our problems in a pile and saw everyone else's, we'd grab ours back...Regina Brett ------ The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else...Dr. Adrian Rogers

December 13, 2011, 10:16 PM	#44
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,833	The devil is in the details, and there are almost as many different details as there are gun designs. AND, take note everyone, there are other ways to single load the auto pistol than dropping a round in the chamber and letting the slide slam home on it! Leaving aside the emergency combat lost/dropped your last mag, need a round up the spout NOW! situations, where is the rush to load a single round in the barrel? Many designs allow for the extractor to pivot or flex and snap over the case rim. The 1911 doesn't. Not without needless strain on the extractor. But you could fit the round under the extractor and ease it into the chamber. After all, what's the rush? Doing that places no extra strain on the extractor, and gets the same result, loaded chamber. I have one handgun where the owner's manual specifically FORBIDS dropping a round in the chamber and allowing the bolt to slam home. And its about the round firing, not the extractor! __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

December 13, 2011, 08:37 AM	#26
Marquezj16 Senior Member Join Date: April 3, 2011 Posts: 2,088	I thought I read this in one of my manuals. You can single load in case of a lost magazine. I can't remember which pistol though. But I agree, it can be done with some and not others. And then again, probably won't make a habit of doing it.

December 13, 2011, 09:41 AM	#27
drail Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2008 Posts: 3,150	So we have determined that the 1911 is " a piece of junk" and it is "obsolete". My drill segeant would have loved you.

December 13, 2011, 10:31 AM	#28
baddarryl Senior Member Join Date: March 29, 2011 Location: Cape Fear! Posts: 1,683	I have done it dozens of times to my P89 with no issues at all, but after being told this at an IDPA match I won't do it anymore just to be safe.

December 13, 2011, 12:15 PM	#30
Walklightly Junior member Join Date: September 28, 2011 Posts: 985	Give one up for revolvers, you don't don't a mag.

December 13, 2011, 12:53 PM	#31
Silent Bob Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2005 Posts: 288	The manual for the old Ruger P-Series pistols stated that the pistol could be used without the magazine, such as for training purposes (or in the event of lost magazines), by loading a round directly into the chamber.

December 13, 2011, 01:30 PM	#33
Sheikyourbootie Senior Member Join Date: June 6, 2010 Posts: 379	I tried loading my CZ83 with a dummy round. The external extractor just flexes without apparent undue strain as it goes into battery. I'll peruse the owners manual again to see if I can find mention to avoid this practice.

December 13, 2011, 05:55 PM	#37
1911Tuner Senior Member Join Date: May 17, 2004 Location: NC Piedmont/Foothills Posts: 666	re: In the beginning, the 1911's extractor was made of 1090 steel, of Austenitic grain size 7 or smaller...hardened and drawn to a spring temper, and the extractor was very flexible. Modern 4340 extractors aren't nearly as flexible. It has a bevel on the nose. This serves two purposes. It provides clearance with the extractor groove on the case, and it's a camming surface that allows for single-loading in the event of a lost or damaged magazine. This isn't the way the extractor was intended to work, but it would tolerate it in an emergency as an expedient means to keep the pistol firing and provide its owner a chance of staying alive. Also, in the beginning, the extractor...along with every other part of the gun except the frame...was considered to be expendable. Unit armorers replaced parts if they even suspected that they were close to failure when the pistol was slated for service in a war zone. Parts are cheap. Lives aren't. __________________ If your front porch collapses and kills more than three dogs...You just might be a redneck

December 13, 2011, 08:04 PM	#40
Therealkoop Senior Member Join Date: August 12, 2010 Posts: 285	Better toss any sigs, glocks, or M&P's you have in the bin while you are at it.

December 13, 2011, 08:44 PM	#41
johnbt Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Richmond, Virginia USA Posts: 6,004	"A pistol whos extractor will break if slammed home on a loaded chamber is a piece of junk." Thanks, I needed a laugh today.

December 13, 2011, 11:33 PM	#45
Sarge Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2002 Location: MO Posts: 5,457	There is no 'rush' to single load. The reasons might be as varied as not wishing to have to top off the mag every time, to avoiding setback of your chamber load by bouncing it up the feedramp repeatedly. As has been mentioned before, single-loading is facilitated by steeply-beveled extractors designed for that expressed purpose and the practice is approved in the manual of arms of certain pistols. As has also been mentioned by several of us here, we engaged in this practice for years with minimal extractor replacement and even that couldn't be traced to single loading. It's worth mentioning that I've purchased brand-spanking new 1911 extractors from well-known, top-drawer parts houses that were broke when I got 'em. Some designs will tolerate single loading and others won't. The user ought to be interested enough in his personal weapons, to know the difference. To generalize to the point of damning or recommending the practice, to all pistols, is generalizing just a little too much. __________________ People were smarter before the Internet, or imbeciles were harder to notice.

December 14, 2011, 07:45 AM	#46
Walklightly Junior member Join Date: September 28, 2011 Posts: 985	Isn't the extractor made of spring steel?

December 14, 2011, 11:44 AM	#47
pgdion Senior Member Join Date: April 22, 2010 Location: MPLS, MN Posts: 1,214	Aristides, again, it depends on your gun. Some, like the Beretta 92, are designed so you can do this. Many are not. Doesn't make them inferior, they just aren't designed for it and you could break the extractor. Your manual should tell you if it can be single loaded like that but snap caps are probably a better way to go. I do the same thing as you, but only with my 92FS. None of my other guns are designed for loading singles directly. I'm going to pick up some snap caps for them as I'm not a huge fan of dry firing into nothing either (although I've seen no problems with it yet). __________________ 597 VTR, because there's so many cans and so little time!

December 14, 2011, 02:43 PM	#49
drail Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2008 Posts: 3,150	Agreed. He has seen some 1911 malfunctions and figured out why in his day. He also loves dogs so he's OK in my book.