Historical survivablity and the M9

CraZkid · February 16, 2005, 08:07 PM

It dawned on me the other day that in a few years the m1911 will turn 100 years old and there are people that idolize this old design (for 1911-o-philes I said old, not bad). In the year 2083 do you think that people will buy a wide varietty of different M9's made by companies other than Berretta; made with the latest technology and firing cartidges that did not even exist when the M9 came out? Will it be subject to the same worship as the 1911? Or (more than likely) will it fade into obscurity?

Personaly I have nothing for or against M9s. The first hand gun I fired was infact my uncles 92fs. However the M9 breaks no new ground, is not especialy popular in the civilian market and is not nowhere near superior to some of its contemporaries.

What is your folks opinion:worshiped by our great-(great) grandkids or fade away to obscurity; and why?

Full Metal Jacket · February 16, 2005, 08:37 PM

My first gun i ever fired was also a 92FS. Beautiful design and Ergonomics. Not my favorite caliber though.

**4V50 Gary** · February 16, 2005, 08:53 PM

I think the M92 will go the way of the dinosaur. If a new, caseless ammunition that is available to the public comes along, I doubt if the 1911 will be used (for sport or otherwise) in the large numbers it is today. I could be wrong though, it showed up in Aliens.

garrettwc · February 16, 2005, 11:27 PM

I don't think it will. Not because Berettas are bad, but because they aren't unique or representative of major innovations in the industry.

Think of some of the 100 yr guns:

Colt 1911
Colt SAA
S&W Revolver
Winchester '94 rifle

They all offered something that didn't exist before.

abelew · February 17, 2005, 09:17 PM

The gun itself is good, the round it expells is not. Anyways, anyone going into battle with only a handgun is just asking for problems

PaleRyder · February 17, 2005, 09:32 PM

I'm a civilian and the 92FS is one of my favorites. And yeah, when you're having to shoot lousy Geneva Convention mandated round ball, I suppose it wouldn't be too great. Hollowpoints are another story however.

abelew · February 18, 2005, 06:46 PM

I have torn thoughts about 9mm. I just can't get myself to use it for defense. I dont know why, but I have tried and tried again to get myself to make the plunge. Arguing to myself about less recoil, more ammo, cheaper ammo, etc. I just can't

futureforcewarrior22 · February 19, 2005, 06:30 AM

Quote: I could be wrong though, it showed up in Aliens.

Actually I believe the pistol from Aliens was an HK P7, not an M9. Loved those "M41A Pulse Rifles" though. Kind of wish I had something like that when I was in Iraq! What did it supposedly fire? A "10mm Caseless High Explosive Light Armor Piercing" from what, a "100rnd Power Assisted Magazine?" Plus it had that multi shot pump-action grenade launcher! Damn!!! I don't know about the rest of my Leatherneck Brethren but I sure could've used one of those.

Oh well, a man can still dream can't he?

**JohnKSa** · February 19, 2005, 10:56 PM

Given the same sort of publicity and exposure it's possible.

The problem is that's not likely to happen since not many pistols have been used by the winning side in two World Wars...

ISP2605 · February 19, 2005, 11:33 PM

", when you're having to shoot lousy Geneva Convention mandated round ball,"

No mention of round ball or any kind of ammunition in the Geneva Convention. The GC refers to the treatment of prisoners and has nothing to do with weapons of war.
The Hague Accords of 1892 dealt with weapons of war, which were weapons that cause undue hardship and suffering on the combatants. That included submarines, land mines, machine guns, flame throwers, etc. The US is not a signatory of the HA.
Remember that quite a few nations have successfully used the 9mm in a variety of platforms since it's inception.
So to the original question. The M9 is a very reliable weapon, altho grip size is a bit overly large for many small and medium hand size shooters. Maintenance is relatively easy compared to some of the other designs out there. Will it last 100 years in service? Quite possibly. The military is not quick to change and economics is often a driving or limiting factor. For those who remember back that far, in the mid 1950s the military looked at replacing the 1911s with DA 9mm weapons. After tests were conducted it was decided that at that time there really wasn't a need for a different handgun as there were still sizeable quantities, altho lesser numbers, of serviceable 1911s. The US was just coming off Korea and not in an itch to go forth into battle any time soon. Therefore, with no looming battles on the horizon, and with the development of the M-14, the military scrapped plans to dump the supply of 1911s.
When you study battlefield logistics the handgun plays a very minor role in a battle. Few carry a handgun. There are a lot better weapon systems available which perform a whole lot better than a handgun in battle.
The 9mm round will stay around. It's NATO standard. As such it won't be replaced at least anytime soon.

cje1980 · February 20, 2005, 04:34 AM

Hardball ammo in any cartridge is much less effective than hollow point. .45ACP and 9mm in police shootings have been statistically proven to be nearly identical. Guess what so have the shootings with HP. The thread was about the gun not the caliber even though the 9mm along with the .45 are good defense rounds. It just really drives me nuts when people act like .45 FMJ is as effective as any other defense cartridge FMJ or HP. .45ACP FMJ ammo performed just as miserably in the field as 9mm hardball. Some people claim it was designed for better defense against natives in the Phillipine war, which was largely untrue. First of all the 1911 was not the primary defense firearm used in the war. Secondly the 1911 was just simply a much better option for the military at the time. More initial capacity as well as much quicker reloads.

Blind Tree Frog · February 20, 2005, 05:16 AM

Caseless ammo has been around for a while. They made and tested some rifles that used it for the military. Apparetly, while they were much lighter then traditional rifles, they had horrible heat problems. The ejecting casing takes a lot of heat with it that more then made up for it's wieght.

And really, it depends if there is a major war or two or not. Much of the 1911's popularity can be attributed to the number of wars that it went through and the number of soldiers leaving the military for civilian life and continuing to shoot. If there isn't a big war and large numbers of people are not introduced to shooting it, then probably not. If those conditions are met, then yeah it probably will.

Unique 5.7 · February 21, 2005, 02:28 PM

I own a Beretta 92FS and do not think it will be around very long, conventional guns as we know them today will be obsolete within 30 years, imo. The .45 ACP is just not a very good military round, it is very heavy and bulky with a marginal (if any) increase in performance. Mix in the increased firepower of a 9mm handgun and that the .45 ACP is a little too much of a round to control for conscripted/drafted Everyman in large militaries and you can see why the 9mm is universally used by militaries and the .45 ACP is not. Logistics and firepower just favour the 9mm.

MillCreek · February 21, 2005, 02:35 PM

Regarding Aliens, I recall that the pistol they tried to give to Bishop just before he entered the tunnel to the antenna downlink was a P7. However, when Private Vasquez and Lt. Gorman were in the air ducts, I thought they were firing a Beretta or Taurus 92 at the aliens. I don't recall seeing a 1911 in that film.

abelew · February 21, 2005, 06:45 PM

I would have no beef with the 9mm if you could thrown JHP into it. Still not the greatest stopper, but at least you could do more damage with it while tossing all those rounds down range.

MillCreek · February 21, 2005, 08:16 PM

OK, over on the High Road, we just had an exchange about the pistols used in Aliens, most notably Lt. Gorman and Private Vasquez.

Using freeze frame and digital zoom on my computer, I am pretty darn sure that Gorman's pistol is a H&K VP-70 and Vasquez' pistol is a S&W Model 59 or 459. I cannot see a 1911 in the film, and if anyone can, please tell me what scene and I will look.

mathman · February 21, 2005, 08:30 PM

Short answer to the question posed in the thread...

No...the M9 will not live on like the 1911. I only wish that I will be around in 2083 to verify this...

seb5 · February 21, 2005, 08:56 PM

No the Beretta will not last as long as the 1911. That said it will still be around. And why not, it was not innovative in the same sense that the 1911 was but at the time it did tie together several design ideas into a nice tidy package. Think of long lasting firearms. Not many actually were ground breaking but improved on existing technology of the time, as did the 92. Think about S&W revolvers, Walther PPK's, P-38's, BHP's, and on and on. Try to think of anything in handguns in the last 75 years that was really innovative. Other than stainless steel the only other thing was synthetics(Glocks).

asinner1979 · February 21, 2005, 09:08 PM

100 yr guns, you forgot the mauser bolt action 98 practically copied by every gun manufacturer, and the proven and tested ak/aks family of weapons is almost 60yrs old alreay

PaleRyder · February 24, 2005, 09:07 AM

Sorry about that. I was misinformed that round ball was in the GC. I actually stated to the person at the time I thought it was a NATO agreement.

February 16, 2005, 08:07 PM	#1
CraZkid Junior member Join Date: December 5, 2004 Posts: 435	Historical survivablity and the M9 It dawned on me the other day that in a few years the m1911 will turn 100 years old and there are people that idolize this old design (for 1911-o-philes I said old, not bad). In the year 2083 do you think that people will buy a wide varietty of different M9's made by companies other than Berretta; made with the latest technology and firing cartidges that did not even exist when the M9 came out? Will it be subject to the same worship as the 1911? Or (more than likely) will it fade into obscurity? Personaly I have nothing for or against M9s. The first hand gun I fired was infact my uncles 92fs. However the M9 breaks no new ground, is not especialy popular in the civilian market and is not nowhere near superior to some of its contemporaries. What is your folks opinion:worshiped by our great-(great) grandkids or fade away to obscurity; and why?

February 16, 2005, 08:53 PM	#3
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,829	I think the M92 will go the way of the dinosaur. If a new, caseless ammunition that is available to the public comes along, I doubt if the 1911 will be used (for sport or otherwise) in the large numbers it is today. I could be wrong though, it showed up in Aliens. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

February 17, 2005, 09:17 PM	#5
abelew Senior Member Join Date: November 29, 2004 Location: Florida Posts: 778	The gun itself is good, the round it expells is not. Anyways, anyone going into battle with only a handgun is just asking for problems __________________ "Where the choice is between only violence and cowardice, I would advise violence." ~ Mohatma Gandhi

February 18, 2005, 06:46 PM	#7
abelew Senior Member Join Date: November 29, 2004 Location: Florida Posts: 778	I have torn thoughts about 9mm. I just can't get myself to use it for defense. I dont know why, but I have tried and tried again to get myself to make the plunge. Arguing to myself about less recoil, more ammo, cheaper ammo, etc. I just can't __________________ "Where the choice is between only violence and cowardice, I would advise violence." ~ Mohatma Gandhi

February 21, 2005, 02:28 PM	#13
Unique 5.7 Senior Member Join Date: January 20, 2005 Location: The Heartland Posts: 214	I own a Beretta 92FS and do not think it will be around very long, conventional guns as we know them today will be obsolete within 30 years, imo. The .45 ACP is just not a very good military round, it is very heavy and bulky with a marginal (if any) increase in performance. Mix in the increased firepower of a 9mm handgun and that the .45 ACP is a little too much of a round to control for conscripted/drafted Everyman in large militaries and you can see why the 9mm is universally used by militaries and the .45 ACP is not. Logistics and firepower just favour the 9mm. __________________ "Never underestimate the power of a guilty conscience." - Det. Alexandra Eames, "Law & Order: Criminal Intent"

February 16, 2005, 08:37 PM	#2
Full Metal Jacket Senior Member Join Date: December 8, 2004 Posts: 260	My first gun i ever fired was also a 92FS. Beautiful design and Ergonomics. Not my favorite caliber though.

February 16, 2005, 11:27 PM	#4
garrettwc Senior Member Join Date: October 3, 2001 Posts: 641	I don't think it will. Not because Berettas are bad, but because they aren't unique or representative of major innovations in the industry. Think of some of the 100 yr guns: Colt 1911 Colt SAA S&W Revolver Winchester '94 rifle They all offered something that didn't exist before.

February 17, 2005, 09:32 PM	#6
PaleRyder Senior Member Join Date: October 16, 2004 Posts: 149	I'm a civilian and the 92FS is one of my favorites. And yeah, when you're having to shoot lousy Geneva Convention mandated round ball, I suppose it wouldn't be too great. Hollowpoints are another story however.

February 19, 2005, 06:30 AM	#8
futureforcewarrior22 Member Join Date: January 29, 2005 Location: OH Posts: 38	Quote: I could be wrong though, it showed up in Aliens. Actually I believe the pistol from Aliens was an HK P7, not an M9. Loved those "M41A Pulse Rifles" though. Kind of wish I had something like that when I was in Iraq! What did it supposedly fire? A "10mm Caseless High Explosive Light Armor Piercing" from what, a "100rnd Power Assisted Magazine?" Plus it had that multi shot pump-action grenade launcher! Damn!!! I don't know about the rest of my Leatherneck Brethren but I sure could've used one of those. Oh well, a man can still dream can't he?

February 19, 2005, 10:56 PM	#9
JohnKSa Staff Join Date: February 12, 2001 Location: DFW Area Posts: 24,971	Given the same sort of publicity and exposure it's possible. The problem is that's not likely to happen since not many pistols have been used by the winning side in two World Wars...

February 19, 2005, 11:33 PM	#10
ISP2605 Junior member Join Date: November 25, 2002 Posts: 954	", when you're having to shoot lousy Geneva Convention mandated round ball," No mention of round ball or any kind of ammunition in the Geneva Convention. The GC refers to the treatment of prisoners and has nothing to do with weapons of war. The Hague Accords of 1892 dealt with weapons of war, which were weapons that cause undue hardship and suffering on the combatants. That included submarines, land mines, machine guns, flame throwers, etc. The US is not a signatory of the HA. Remember that quite a few nations have successfully used the 9mm in a variety of platforms since it's inception. So to the original question. The M9 is a very reliable weapon, altho grip size is a bit overly large for many small and medium hand size shooters. Maintenance is relatively easy compared to some of the other designs out there. Will it last 100 years in service? Quite possibly. The military is not quick to change and economics is often a driving or limiting factor. For those who remember back that far, in the mid 1950s the military looked at replacing the 1911s with DA 9mm weapons. After tests were conducted it was decided that at that time there really wasn't a need for a different handgun as there were still sizeable quantities, altho lesser numbers, of serviceable 1911s. The US was just coming off Korea and not in an itch to go forth into battle any time soon. Therefore, with no looming battles on the horizon, and with the development of the M-14, the military scrapped plans to dump the supply of 1911s. When you study battlefield logistics the handgun plays a very minor role in a battle. Few carry a handgun. There are a lot better weapon systems available which perform a whole lot better than a handgun in battle. The 9mm round will stay around. It's NATO standard. As such it won't be replaced at least anytime soon.

February 20, 2005, 04:34 AM	#11
cje1980 Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2004 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,412	Hardball ammo in any cartridge is much less effective than hollow point. .45ACP and 9mm in police shootings have been statistically proven to be nearly identical. Guess what so have the shootings with HP. The thread was about the gun not the caliber even though the 9mm along with the .45 are good defense rounds. It just really drives me nuts when people act like .45 FMJ is as effective as any other defense cartridge FMJ or HP. .45ACP FMJ ammo performed just as miserably in the field as 9mm hardball. Some people claim it was designed for better defense against natives in the Phillipine war, which was largely untrue. First of all the 1911 was not the primary defense firearm used in the war. Secondly the 1911 was just simply a much better option for the military at the time. More initial capacity as well as much quicker reloads.

February 20, 2005, 05:16 AM	#12
Blind Tree Frog Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2005 Posts: 298	Caseless ammo has been around for a while. They made and tested some rifles that used it for the military. Apparetly, while they were much lighter then traditional rifles, they had horrible heat problems. The ejecting casing takes a lot of heat with it that more then made up for it's wieght. And really, it depends if there is a major war or two or not. Much of the 1911's popularity can be attributed to the number of wars that it went through and the number of soldiers leaving the military for civilian life and continuing to shoot. If there isn't a big war and large numbers of people are not introduced to shooting it, then probably not. If those conditions are met, then yeah it probably will.

February 21, 2005, 02:35 PM	#14
MillCreek Senior Member Join Date: December 30, 2004 Location: Snohomish County, Washington USA Posts: 326	Regarding Aliens, I recall that the pistol they tried to give to Bishop just before he entered the tunnel to the antenna downlink was a P7. However, when Private Vasquez and Lt. Gorman were in the air ducts, I thought they were firing a Beretta or Taurus 92 at the aliens. I don't recall seeing a 1911 in that film. __________________ Regards, MillCreek Snohomish County, Washington USA

February 21, 2005, 06:45 PM	#15
abelew Senior Member Join Date: November 29, 2004 Location: Florida Posts: 778	I would have no beef with the 9mm if you could thrown JHP into it. Still not the greatest stopper, but at least you could do more damage with it while tossing all those rounds down range. __________________ "Where the choice is between only violence and cowardice, I would advise violence." ~ Mohatma Gandhi

February 21, 2005, 08:16 PM	#16
MillCreek Senior Member Join Date: December 30, 2004 Location: Snohomish County, Washington USA Posts: 326	OK, over on the High Road, we just had an exchange about the pistols used in Aliens, most notably Lt. Gorman and Private Vasquez. Using freeze frame and digital zoom on my computer, I am pretty darn sure that Gorman's pistol is a H&K VP-70 and Vasquez' pistol is a S&W Model 59 or 459. I cannot see a 1911 in the film, and if anyone can, please tell me what scene and I will look. __________________ Regards, MillCreek Snohomish County, Washington USA

February 21, 2005, 08:30 PM	#17
mathman Senior Member Join Date: January 15, 2005 Location: SoCal Posts: 1,531	Short answer to the question posed in the thread... No...the M9 will not live on like the 1911. I only wish that I will be around in 2083 to verify this... __________________ Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear to be bright until you hear them speak.

February 21, 2005, 08:56 PM	#18
seb5 Senior Member Join Date: November 28, 2004 Location: NW Arkansas Posts: 477	No the Beretta will not last as long as the 1911. That said it will still be around. And why not, it was not innovative in the same sense that the 1911 was but at the time it did tie together several design ideas into a nice tidy package. Think of long lasting firearms. Not many actually were ground breaking but improved on existing technology of the time, as did the 92. Think about S&W revolvers, Walther PPK's, P-38's, BHP's, and on and on. Try to think of anything in handguns in the last 75 years that was really innovative. Other than stainless steel the only other thing was synthetics(Glocks). __________________ Home is where you dig it

February 21, 2005, 09:08 PM	#19
asinner1979 Member Join Date: June 16, 2004 Location: usa Posts: 35	100yr guns 100 yr guns, you forgot the mauser bolt action 98 practically copied by every gun manufacturer, and the proven and tested ak/aks family of weapons is almost 60yrs old alreay

February 24, 2005, 09:07 AM	#20
PaleRyder Senior Member Join Date: October 16, 2004 Posts: 149	Sorry about that. I was misinformed that round ball was in the GC. I actually stated to the person at the time I thought it was a NATO agreement.

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