Old Bottom Break pistol

Dennis6474 · October 6, 2014, 03:39 PM

A friend sent me this pic in hopes that I might be able to find something on it. He said that it has "32 Regular 1873" stamped on it and it is S&W. It also has 1875 stamped on it but no serial number.

I have never seen a S&W bottom break.

I know that I probably need more info but can any one give me an idea.

RJay · October 6, 2014, 05:47 PM

With only one fuzzy picture, wow

, however it does resemble the S&W 1 1/2 Second issue (1 1/2 new model. ) However, with only that one picture I'm not about to say it is or it isn't.

Jim Watson · October 6, 2014, 06:12 PM

How about an "isn't?"

Smith & Wesson didn't mark guns ".32 Regular 1873", and they serial numbered their guns. If 1875 isn't a serial number what number is it, and if it turned out to be a serial number it is way too low for a 2nd issue.
A S&W doesn't have that frame bolster at the top of the grip and the sideplate isn't round. It does have a cylinder stop showing in the top strap as this gun doesn't, and does not have the lump in the top strap behind the hinge.

There were a lot of copies and knockoffs and I think this is one. Not important enough to make it into Flayderman that I can find.

sgms · October 6, 2014, 08:04 PM

It's hard to tell from the picture but it looks a lot like as Marlin model 1872 pocket revolver with the fluted cylinder made 1873-1876. The markings described are not right for the Marlin though.
The picture is a fluted cylinder S&W model 1 1/2, note the difference in the side plates shapes Marlins are round otherwise they do look a lot alike.

James K · October 6, 2014, 08:12 PM

We definitely need better pictures, but I would not rule out foreign manufacture, maybe Spain. We often forget that in the 19th century as soon as an American company - Colt, S&W, Remington, Winchester - put a gun on the market, it was copied in other countries, and seldom with any attention paid to patents or royalties.

Jim

BillM · October 6, 2014, 08:28 PM

Sure looks like a Marlin!

You sure that mark isn't 32 STANDARD 1873?? Or maybe 1875 or 1878?

Jim Watson · October 6, 2014, 08:31 PM

Agree it looks like the Marlin.
But ".32 Regular 1873" just sounds Spanish.

dogrunner · October 6, 2014, 08:35 PM

Once owned a Marlin just like that. Caliber was .32 rimfire.

Magnum Wheel Man · October 7, 2014, 07:04 AM

I have a S&W "tip up" that I think the barrel was trimmed, probably an inch or two... not in good shape but shootable... this in 32 Rim Fire...

BTW... agree the OP's pic looks like a Marlin, but I've seen several that "looked" like Marlins... I don't recall ever seeing a Spanish gun in the "tip up" form, but that does not mean they weren't made... if it were Spanish, it could be pretty rare, as I'm sure most all it's brethren have been destroyed long ago...

P5 Guy · October 7, 2014, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Once owned a Marlin just like that. Caliber was .32 rimfire.

What dogrunner said. It looks very much like a Marlin .32 rimfire. And yes I had one until I found that .32 rimfire is about as easy to find as 22lr and more expensive. Way more expensive.

Magnum Wheel Man · October 7, 2014, 03:14 PM

Navy Arms made a run of them 10-15 years ago, otherwise Kanuck brand ( spelling ??? ) was some of the last made, maybe produced in Canada ??? ... I prefer my 32's as center fire, but I do have several boxes of 32 Rimfire, as I won't keep anything, if it at least isn't shootable... though I've not tried the bottom break I pictured yet... I would hate to break it, so when I do shoot it, I'll either trim the bullet to cut the weight, or pull a few, & reduce the powder charges, & or switch to something like Trailboss...

James K · October 7, 2014, 08:12 PM

I think BillM is on the right track, the OP's friend likely means "STANDARD", not "REGULAR" in the marking. If so, then the "1873" probably is "1875", and the gun is the No. 32 Standard 1875 pocket revolver. That seems to be the only Marlin of that type with the ".32" marking; earlier ones were either "XX" (.22) or "XXX" (.30).

As usual, we can only hope for better pictures and a better description.

Jim

Dennis6474 · October 8, 2014, 07:03 PM

Better and more pic to follow. I should be able to see the gun this weekend and will try to get some better pic and info.

Stay tuned and thanks for the very informative guess up to now. I am amazed at the depth of knowledge at this site. Thanks and will be back next week.

Dennis6474 · October 13, 2014, 08:33 AM

Ok, more pic as promised - not necessarily better.

On top of the barrel is marked "No 32 Standard 1875"

on left side (barrel towards left) J,M Marli? EW HAVER CT US J?ly 1 1873 (or 1878 unable to tell for sure due to wear)

also marked is 9174 on barrel and also 9174 on cylinder between chambers.

On the barrel where Marlin is the last letter, "N" is missing and in its place are two small dash marks. they may be the remains of the N but there is no wear on the "I" which is next to it.

I assume the date "J?ly" is July 1 1878. If the model is stamped 1875 then it would have to be 1878.

Did they mark the guns with the date of manufacture or is it a date of model change.

Assuming this is enough info, what is the gun worth? It has some rust and the finish is damaged in some small spots. Also most of the screws are buggered up.

What is the brass cover on the left side with a single screw in the center and another screw in a small cutout in the edge to stop the brass circle from turning.

Sorry the pictures are not better but that is as good as my camera will do.

For some reason I cannot up load the pic. will try later. It gives me an error about security and to inform ADMIN.

Magnum Wheel Man · October 13, 2014, 08:43 AM

Marlin from New Haven

BTW... not seeing the new pics...

the dates are likely patent dates, & not date of manufacture

James K · October 13, 2014, 01:13 PM

The barrel should read:

NO. 32 STANDARD 1875 and J.M. MARLIN, NEW HAVEN, CT. U.S.A. PAT. JULY 1, 1873.

That model was made only in 1875. There were two variations: the first was .32 Short Rimfire only, with a total production estimated at about 15,000, the second was in .32 RF Long and Short, with a correspondingly longer cylinder, frame, and ejection pin. Production is estimated at around 18,000.

Most of the above is from Marlin Firearms, by William S. Brophy.

Value is not high. Even in near-new condition, they run about $500.

Jim

October 6, 2014, 05:47 PM	#2
RJay Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2005 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,936	With only one fuzzy picture, wow, however it does resemble the S&W 1 1/2 Second issue (1 1/2 new model. ) However, with only that one picture I'm not about to say it is or it isn't. __________________ Ron James

October 7, 2014, 07:04 AM	#9
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9,333	I have a S&W "tip up" that I think the barrel was trimmed, probably an inch or two... not in good shape but shootable... this in 32 Rim Fire... BTW... agree the OP's pic looks like a Marlin, but I've seen several that "looked" like Marlins... I don't recall ever seeing a Spanish gun in the "tip up" form, but that does not mean they weren't made... if it were Spanish, it could be pretty rare, as I'm sure most all it's brethren have been destroyed long ago... __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust...

October 7, 2014, 03:14 PM	#11
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9,333	Navy Arms made a run of them 10-15 years ago, otherwise Kanuck brand ( spelling ??? ) was some of the last made, maybe produced in Canada ??? ... I prefer my 32's as center fire, but I do have several boxes of 32 Rimfire, as I won't keep anything, if it at least isn't shootable... though I've not tried the bottom break I pictured yet... I would hate to break it, so when I do shoot it, I'll either trim the bullet to cut the weight, or pull a few, & reduce the powder charges, & or switch to something like Trailboss... __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust...

October 13, 2014, 08:43 AM	#15
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9,333	Marlin from New Haven BTW... not seeing the new pics... the dates are likely patent dates, & not date of manufacture __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust... Last edited by Magnum Wheel Man; October 13, 2014 at 08:51 AM.

October 6, 2014, 06:12 PM	#3
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,539	How about an "isn't?" Smith & Wesson didn't mark guns ".32 Regular 1873", and they serial numbered their guns. If 1875 isn't a serial number what number is it, and if it turned out to be a serial number it is way too low for a 2nd issue. A S&W doesn't have that frame bolster at the top of the grip and the sideplate isn't round. It does have a cylinder stop showing in the top strap as this gun doesn't, and does not have the lump in the top strap behind the hinge. There were a lot of copies and knockoffs and I think this is one. Not important enough to make it into Flayderman that I can find.

October 6, 2014, 08:12 PM	#5
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	We definitely need better pictures, but I would not rule out foreign manufacture, maybe Spain. We often forget that in the 19th century as soon as an American company - Colt, S&W, Remington, Winchester - put a gun on the market, it was copied in other countries, and seldom with any attention paid to patents or royalties. Jim

October 6, 2014, 08:28 PM	#6
BillM Senior Member Join Date: January 20, 2009 Location: Amity Oregon Posts: 791	Sure looks like a Marlin! You sure that mark isn't 32 STANDARD 1873?? Or maybe 1875 or 1878?

October 6, 2014, 08:31 PM	#7
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,539	Agree it looks like the Marlin. But ".32 Regular 1873" just sounds Spanish.

October 6, 2014, 08:35 PM	#8
dogrunner Junior member Join Date: June 22, 2009 Location: E/Cntrl Fla. Posts: 98	Once owned a Marlin just like that. Caliber was .32 rimfire.

October 7, 2014, 08:12 PM	#12
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	I think BillM is on the right track, the OP's friend likely means "STANDARD", not "REGULAR" in the marking. If so, then the "1873" probably is "1875", and the gun is the No. 32 Standard 1875 pocket revolver. That seems to be the only Marlin of that type with the ".32" marking; earlier ones were either "XX" (.22) or "XXX" (.30). As usual, we can only hope for better pictures and a better description. Jim

October 8, 2014, 07:03 PM	#13
Dennis6474 Member Join Date: October 6, 2011 Location: Florida Panhandle Posts: 84	Better and more pic to follow. I should be able to see the gun this weekend and will try to get some better pic and info. Stay tuned and thanks for the very informative guess up to now. I am amazed at the depth of knowledge at this site. Thanks and will be back next week.

October 13, 2014, 08:33 AM	#14
Dennis6474 Member Join Date: October 6, 2011 Location: Florida Panhandle Posts: 84	Ok, more pic as promised - not necessarily better. On top of the barrel is marked "No 32 Standard 1875" on left side (barrel towards left) J,M Marli? EW HAVER CT US J?ly 1 1873 (or 1878 unable to tell for sure due to wear) also marked is 9174 on barrel and also 9174 on cylinder between chambers. On the barrel where Marlin is the last letter, "N" is missing and in its place are two small dash marks. they may be the remains of the N but there is no wear on the "I" which is next to it. I assume the date "J?ly" is July 1 1878. If the model is stamped 1875 then it would have to be 1878. Did they mark the guns with the date of manufacture or is it a date of model change. Assuming this is enough info, what is the gun worth? It has some rust and the finish is damaged in some small spots. Also most of the screws are buggered up. What is the brass cover on the left side with a single screw in the center and another screw in a small cutout in the edge to stop the brass circle from turning. Sorry the pictures are not better but that is as good as my camera will do. For some reason I cannot up load the pic. will try later. It gives me an error about security and to inform ADMIN.

October 13, 2014, 01:13 PM	#16
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	The barrel should read: NO. 32 STANDARD 1875 and J.M. MARLIN, NEW HAVEN, CT. U.S.A. PAT. JULY 1, 1873. That model was made only in 1875. There were two variations: the first was .32 Short Rimfire only, with a total production estimated at about 15,000, the second was in .32 RF Long and Short, with a correspondingly longer cylinder, frame, and ejection pin. Production is estimated at around 18,000. Most of the above is from Marlin Firearms, by William S. Brophy. Value is not high. Even in near-new condition, they run about $500. Jim