Which affordable C&R pistols do I need?

[Capybara]

I will be attending the Phoenix Gun Show December 5-7. My gun safe is actually way beyond capacity, so I won't be looking for any long guns as I have nowhere to keep them, I know, first world problems.

I can make room for a few more affordable ($200.00 to $400.00 range, so probably no Lugers or 1911s) C&R pistols though.

Own
Walther P38
CZ50
CZ82
1895 Nagant
Radom P64
Romanian TTC

Looking For
CZ52
Star Model B
Astra M600
Russian or Polish Radom Tokarov
Any really good deal on a clean C&R S&W revolver
Colt 1903 Hammerless
Russian or E. German Makarov

What else should I add to the "Looking For" column that I might happen upon at the Phoenix Show? I reload so weird calibers are fine unless it is something that brass and projectiles are impossible to get a hold of, I would consider some obsolete calibers like 9x21mm, etc.

Thanks for any advice guys.

[James K]

Investment wise, a decent Luger would be your best bet, but it will probably be the highest price. Almost all the guns you list are C&R (I assume you are not from AZ), but I suggest you not pass up guns like the Steyr M1911/12, French M1935 A or S, or Astra 400, which can still be found at reasonable prices.

An S&W Victory Model is always good, and the older S&W break tops are interesting, though the bigger guns have gone up a lot in price. Guns like the Merwin & Hulbert are also interesting, but the bigger models are also high priced.

Jim

[Doyle]

The earliest PA-63's are now C&R (manufacture started in 1962 if I recall). Good,cheap addition to your 9x18 lineup.

[Capybara]

Thanks gents. No, I live in California so I am restricted to only buying C&Rs in Arizona, most of the ones above I did buy in Arizona.

I would love to buy a Luger, I love them but it seems like the really collectible ones begin at $2k and go up pretty quickly from there. Too rich for my hobby. I have to say, I like inexpensive guns too. I guess I like a lot of variety and history rather than owning many fewer better condition guns. I shoot them all, none of mine are safe queens whereas if I bought a $2k 1911 or Luger, I wouldn't shoot it much.

Nice suggestions on the PA-63, Steyr, French M1935 and the Astra 400. I have seen a few of those S&W Victories at shows, I would not mind having one of those at all.

Good suggestions

[Doyle]

Be very careful with the S&W victories. If I recall the history (somebody please correct me if I have it backwards), many started out life chambered in .38S&W and were sold/loaned to England. After the war, they made it back to the US and many of those were reworked to .38 Special. However, because of a difference in chamber size those reworked .38 Specials have a nasty habit of blowing cases.

[Sevens]

I think you're halfway to crazy if you don't own a Colt Woodsman or variant and it also is not on your "to-do" list.

Pick one up and draw the slide rearward a few times. That alone might sell you.

[carguychris]

Originally Posted by Doyle

Be very careful with the S&W victories. If I recall the history (somebody please correct me if I have it backwards), many started out life chambered in .38S&W and were sold/loaned to England. After the war, they made it back to the US and many of those were reworked to .38 Special.

True; however, most converted guns were also reworked to some degree to increase their commercial sales appeal, and this has the happy side effect of rendering them easy to spot.

Most unmodified .38/200 British Service Revolvers- the official name of the British "Victory"- have smooth walnut grips, matte grey phosphate finish, a lanyard loop on the butt, a half-moon front sight, and a 5" barrel with an ejector rod alignment lug underneath and a *.38 S&W CTG.* rollmark centered on the RH side. Most also display British crown-over-BNP proof marks on the cylinder and frame, and export marks on the barrel. FWIW the phosphate finish was NOT true parkerizing, and it does NOT wear well; most original examples display unsightly scratches.

In my experience, the most common modifications are cut barrels, nickel finish, and ill-fitting and chintzy aftermarket grips, most often plastic faux stag or ivory.

The cut barrels are easy to spot; look for an off-center or missing caliber rollmark, a missing front alignment lug, and a front sight that looks "wrong" due to having been cut off and hastily brazed back on. Additionally, the nickel finish will often be sloppy, with the British proofs barely discernible but still visible, and the ejector rod, ejector star, trigger, and hammer finished in nickel; all factory nickel Smiths have the blued finish on the first two parts and color case finish on the latter two. (This last item is helpful for spotting refinished Smiths of all vintages and types, not just Victories.)

The main thing to remember is that most of these guns were sold really cheap; thus, the importers did NOT have the luxury of paying for quality workmanship. The guns typically just look sloppy when inspected up close. FWIW in this respect, prewar S&W's are somewhat like Lugers; the factory workmanship was typically impeccable, so if the gun superficially looks as-new but the lettering and finish doesn't look perfect when inspected close-up, the gun has probably been reworked.

[Capybara]

Good advice and details, thanks!

[zxcvbob]

A pre-war Colt police service revolver.

[Ricklin]

The High Standard .22's should be on your list! The Hamden CT. guns are truly superb. Hard to go wrong with an older High Standard.

Do watch out for cracked frames, these pistols should only shoot standard velocity .22 besides the standard vel. will deliver better accuracy.

I have a lever release Supermatic, it is a tack driver. Feels great in the hand as well....try one, you will be hooked.

[carguychris]

Another strong contender just came to mind... an Argentine military Sistema Colt Modelo 1927. These are legit and faithful M1911A1 clones built in a defunct auto plant in Argentina using Colt-supplied tooling and a Colt-trained workforce to Colt standards. However, their value has lagged behind U.S. military M1911 pistols, so nice ones can still be picked up for very reasonable prices. Sarco still has them.

http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/review/sistema.htm
http://www.e-sarcoinc.com/colt1911a1...ade-1-1-1.aspx

Another possibility is the Ballister Molina, another Argentine pistol that is superficially similar to a M1911, but has significant internal design changes.

[tobnpr]

SOG has Polish (and Yugo) Tok's...

[James K]

Re: Victory Models, "reworked .38 Specials have a nasty habit of blowing cases."

The difference in case diameter between the .38 Special and the .38 S&W is so small that while cases will often show some bulging, I have never seen any cases "blown". For practical use (not collecting), it is not an issue I would worry about.

Jim