.38Sp target loads for 3" Colt Python?

[Swede68]

I have a 3" barrel Colt Python. I love the gun, and it shoots very accurately with jacketed bullets. It´s great fun shooting .357 Magnum rounds, and milder .38Sp
However, I can´t get sufficient accuracy from commercially loaded .38Sp Wadcutter ammo, and 1 out of 4 or 5 bullets keyholes in the target.
I´ve tried before to handload targetloads with hard cast semi-WC bullets (148grains), and even though the bullets do not keyhole like the commercial WC ammo, the accuracy just isn´t there.
I´ve mainly tried Vihtavouri N340 in these handloads, but I´m beginning to suspect that it burns too slow for the 3" Python.
One of the things I notice is that there seems to be a lot of unburnt powder. And from what I understand, unburnt powder causes bad accuracy.
When loading with jacketed bullets at "normal" .38Sp speeds, the accuracy is good enough, although not spectacular.

Changing to a faster burning powder is no problem, so I will get some Vihtavouri N320 to begin with.

Question is, if I change to a faster burning powder, what type of bullet I should use for best accuracy in the shortbarrel Python (talking cast bullets here)? Should I go with a lighter bullet, with the reasoning that the lower mass of the bullet would make it easier for the short barrel to give it spin enough for stability)?
Or should I use a heavier bullet, with the reasoning that the longer/heavier bullet would have a greater surface area making contact with the rifling?
If I was to stick with the Vihtavouri N340, but change to another cast bullet, would a heavier or a lighter bullet be the way to go for better accuracy (as previously mentioned, I´ve been using a 148grain cast SWC)?

Anyone out there handloading for and shooting a 2 or 3" Python who would like to share their recipe for a good targetround?

Regards!
Anders Olsson

[Jim243]

I dont use them but my understanding is that cast bullets are speed sensetive and need to be under 950 fps. I would check with someone that loads cast bullets to see if they need gas checks as well.

[Johnny Guest]

Swede68, the classic .38 Spl. target load .38 Spl is a 148 gr. wadcutter bullet with 2.7 gr. of Bullseye powder, for 785 fps. Another good one is same bullet with 3.2 of Unique, for 775 fps. Both of these are from a six-inch revolver barrel. Highly accurate but they begin to lose stability beyond 50 yards, so they're not much good for long range plinking.


I've been getting good results in a three-inch S&W using a 158 gr. lead round nose with 4.0 gr. of Win 231 - - Gives around 800 fps, and it flies well out beyond 100 yards.

Best of luck.
Johnny

[Johnny Guest]

Jim243 wrote, "my understanding is that cast bullets are speed sensetive and need to be under 950 fps."

Well, the dead-soft full wadcutters are a bit tempermental when you drive 'em too fast. Then there's the leading aspect. You can get fine accuracy with lead semiwadcutters and round nose bullets at 1200 fps in several calibers. If they're cast of a good alloy and are properly sized, there's little or no problem with leading.

Some of my funnest hours in shooting have been flinging big cast bullets at targets out beyond 100 yards.

Johnny

[bluetopper]

Try 3.0gr of Bullseye with a flush seated wadcutter.

[Swede68]

Thanks guys!
Ahh, here´s the backside of posting on an international forum.
What´s available here, may not be available (or widely used) there, and vice versa (I live in Sweden).
I´m pretty much restricted to Vihtavouri gunpowder. There are other brands available, but the availability is not consistent from month to month, and I refuse to put time and effort into developing a nice round, only to find that the powder for it is no longer available.

Does anyone know how Bullseye and Win231 compares to the Vihtavouri N310, 320, 330 and 340 powders? I´m not looking for a direct translation wheight for wheight for a determined load, I´m well able to work out the load from the manufacturers loadingchart once I´ve decided on which powder to try, but I would like to get a pointer towards which powder (of the Vihtavouri 3-series) would have the chance for the best accuracy in a 3" Python. The unburnt powder in my previous handloads using N340 must be a clue that this powder is not ideal for a 3" revolver (too slow burning).
To make it easier to make a recomendation, the bullet used would be a 148 or 158grain LSWC.

Regards!
Anders Olsson

[Johnny Guest]

Okay, I wasn't thinking that you might be far away. No real problem, except that I need to leave home soon. I'll do some more checking later.

For now, though, go to - -
http://www.vihtavuori-lapua.com/downloads.php
and check their loading guide download for a .38 Special load that yields around 750 to 800 fps with your 148 gr bullet and 750 to 850 with the 158.

ANYONE ELSE - - Do you have ready access to a powder equivalency chart?

Later - - -
Johnny

[Swede68]

Thanks Johnny!

I´ll do some checking of my own, really aprecciate tips and hints.

Regards!
Anders Olsson

[darkgael]

Try the 148 WC with one of these: 3.9grs. N350, 3.5grs N340, 3.2grs N330, 2.9 grs N320.
The 2.9 grain load is supposed to yield the same velocity as 2.5 grains of Bullseye.
(Source: Modern Reloading by R. Lee)
Pete

[Swede68]

Thanks Pete!
My "preferred" load for the 148grain LSWC was 4,8grains of N340, this is the load that gave "best" precision with that powder. This is also the load that I´m not satisfied with, and which left lots of unburnt powder, which is why I´m looking into getting a faster burning powder (N320).

I never went below 4,8grains, because 5,3 grains is the starting load for this bullet according to my Vihtavouri loading manual.

I guess one could say that my question could be asked in a more general way. Which may (or may not) make it easier to answer. The problem is that a "normal" (according to the manual) load of 148 grain LSWC over N340 does not give good enough precision in my short barrel Python. I would consider 4,8grain a pretty normal load for target work (at least here in Sweden), I got the "recipe" from buddies shooting revolvers, but THEIR revolvers were of normal barrellength for target work ( 6" ). Question is where I do start looking for the solution.
The more "general" question (divided into two) is:
1: Regarding the bullet, for optimum precision out of a short barrel revolver, should I be looking at a lighter bullet, a heavier one, or is my 148grain LSWC good enough.
2. Regarding the powder, am I correct in looking for a faster burning propellant to achieve better precision out of my short barrel Python?

I can allways achieve very good precision by going to jacketed bullets. The gun has allways shot well with those, and is pretty unsensitive (other than that the poi changes of corse) for different powders (both charge and type of powder) and different bullets, as long as I shoot jacketed bullets.
However, they are pretty expensive, I can get 2 LSWC´s for each jacketed bullet, and I can mold 4 or 5 LSWC´s myself for the same amount.

Regards!
Anders Olsson

[That'll Do]

Originally Posted by Johnny Guest

ANYONE ELSE - - Do you have ready access to a powder equivalency chart?

Here's a link to one: http://www.reloadersnest.com/burnrates.asp

[Swede68]

Thanks That´ll do!
That gives me an idea and a good starting point for comparison.

We can leave the "recipes" for exact loads out of this for the time being. I´m capable of working out an optimal load with the help of Vihtavouri´s loadingcharts, once I get the components right (to find the "perfect" load once I´ve settled on what powder and bullet to use is just a matter of trial and error).

So the questions I still would like to get answers to is:
1. Should I go for a lighter, heavier or the same (148grains LSWC) cast bullet?
2. Am I correct in assuming that a faster burning powder would be likely to help me achieve better precision?

And just to remind you, we are talking about a 3" barrel Python, what works in a 6" S&W 586 may not work at all in my gun (it has proven not to work).

Once I´ve figured out (with your help hopefully) what powder and bullet to use, there´s still a lot of work ahead of me finding the perfect charge and COL that works best in my revolver, but that´s the fun part of it!

Johnny Guest, I see that the Win 231 which you have had good result with in your S&W 3" lands somewhere between Vihtavouri N320 and N330 (though much closer to the N320). That should be a good sign that the N320 may be the way to go.

Well, anyone else with experience in loading cast bullets for short barrel .38 revolvers who wants to contribute?

Regards!
Anders Olsson

[zxcvbob]

N340 probably burns too slow. You might try N330, N320, or N310. N320 is a good place to start. You also might get better accuracy using a soft lead bullet instead of hard lead.

I like 125 grain truncated cone bullets in .38 Special with a near-maximum charge of very fast powder (4.0 grains of Red Dot, which doesn't translate very well to VV powder)

Does your gun have adjustable sights? Changing bullet weight can change the point-of-impact considerably. Heavy bullets bullet hit higher.

[Swede68]

Hmm, softer bullets you say? Well, it may be worth a try, but the factory loaded WC ammo I´ve used has a very soft bullet, and gives pretty bad precision with keyholing bullets. But it may be worth a try.

Lighter bullets is one of the things I´ve been thinking about, my reasoning being that a body with a lower mass needs less effort to start spinning (to achieve a stable flightpath) so maybe that´s just what my short barrel needs to stabilize the bullets, but on the other hand, a HEAVIER bullet has a larger contactarea with the bore. I´m just guessing here, and there´s no way to know which guess is more correct, which is why I´m looking for your experience in this type of gun (shortbarrel revolver).

Yes, it has fully adjustable sights. One of the problems I have is that I can´t get POA and POI to the same point on the target, the gun allways hits higher with .38Sp rounds. This is allright for "stationary" target shooting (though I´d like to try something a little bit more "practical" also later on).
I haven´t mentioned this problem earlier in the thread, because i first need to find a handload that gives good precision. It´s a very secondary issue, I can allways raise the frontsight later, if it´s still hits hight when I´ve found the right load.

Regards!
Anders Olsson

[Johnny Guest]

That being the case, Swede68, I think I'll bow out for now.

Now that we're talking about casting your own bullets, let me suggest that everyone stop by and check out the brand-spanking-new Bullet Casting subforum of H and R. It's just now getting started, so I'm inviting asnyone with anything to contribute, or questions to ask, concerning cast bullets, to participate.

Best regards to all
Johnny

[Swede68]

Thanks Johnny, and the rest of you who have contributed to the thread!

I´m going to buy some N320 and start testing with the bullets I allready have. Unless I´m mistaken, I have some hardcast 120grain TC bullets too, that will be interesting to try, if I can find them in the debrisfield which I call my handloading room!

Best regards!
Anders Olsson

[zxcvbob]

You need to check this against published load data, of course, but that 120 grain cast bullet with about 4.5 grains of N320 should be a pretty good load -- assuming the bullets are fat enough to seal well.

Good luck!

[Swede68]

Thanks!
They should be sized .357 IIRC, and since they are hardcast (storebought) that "should" be enough. But I´ll give it a try and see.

Best regards!
Anders Olsson